Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

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Yes, the source....whoever made the decision to hire an inexperienced armorer, to cut corners. But she could have rejected the job, quit, or refused to be rushed and compromised in that particularly responsible position.

RSBM.

Do we know what HG's armoury experience was before this year?

I would think that some kind of certification in at least basic gun safety would be required? I'm not sure that just anyone can adequately perform this role. I would imagine that attributes such as attention to detail, adherence to safely protocols, stability and integrity would be important.

Perhaps internships under experts like Larry Zanoff, could give new armourers experience. I noticed that he is POST certified and has military experience.

Larry Zanoff - Biography - IMDb
 

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Who buys the dummy/ blanks ammo for the set? Does the Armorer? Because if the Armorer believes there is no live ammo on the set, and dummy bullets look like live ammo, then how can she be held responsible if she did not know she was handling live ammo? And if she should know the difference, then I doubt she would have been the one to load the live ammo into the gun. Did someone bring live ammo onto a set where there was not supposed to be any?
They are not identical. Dummies have a hole on the side. Live ammo doesn't. If someone works as a armorer, they are certainly expected to know dummies from real bullets.
 
No, that's incorrect. The whole point of a dummy on a movie set is that they look realistic enough for a close up. Dummies could be of a different color, but in this case, they weren't. AD said dummies had a hole on the side to distinguish them from real bullets.
So HGR would not have mistakenly loaded a real bullet instead of a dummy because the dummy had a hole in the side to distinguish it from real ammo. So, someone else had to put the real bullet into the gun, but who, when, and why? Did HGR check the gun properly at all the correct points/times? Was she told, and believed there was no live ammo on set, and treated the firearm differently because of that? What was the chain of command? Sooooo many questions to be answered.
 
So HGR would not have mistakenly loaded a real bullet instead of a dummy because the dummy had a hole in the side to distinguish it from real ammo. So, someone else had to put the real bullet into the gun, but who, when, and why? Did HGR check the gun properly at all the correct points/times? Was she told, and believed there was no live ammo on set, and treated the firearm differently because of that? What was the chain of command? Sooooo many questions to be answered.
That is if she was paying attention. You assuming she was careful of looking at holes on the side of the dummy.
 
Do you agree that the primer in the base on the cartridge is what makes a gun fire? No live primer no bang. No live primer equals a "cold" or safe gun.

A hole in the side of a cartridge does not make the round safe. It could still be a "hot" round that will go bang if the trigger is pulled. JMO.
Photo of a dummy with a fired primer.
50 Cal. DUMMY AMMO drilled holes (armynavyoutdoors.com)
 
To imply guilt simply because a gun may have left her sight for a short period of time is (to me) not realistic. Also

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. That is the essence of HGR's job, right there. To watch those guns and ammo like they were the nuclear football, and when she isn't watching them, they're locked in the safe. Then finally to engage in the vital ritual of checking that there are no live rounds before handing off the gun.

Every time. Full stop.

She can say anything she wants about no live rounds ever being on the set. It is a fact that there was a live round, not an opinion, because that's why Halyna died and why the same bullet was removed from Souza's shoulder after tearing through Halyna.

I've mentioned before that I watched Breaking Bad which was also filmed in New Mexico. That show was guns all day long. I have no idea who was in charge and what kind of guns were used, but whomever was the armorer was on point because there was no catastrophe. Same state, same laws governing TV and theatrical productions. But clearly a crew who paid attention to their jobs.

IMO
 
AD didn't say they looked at the primer, he claimed dummies had a hole on the side and that's how they knew they were dummies.
Do you think that AD Halls and HGR should have looked at the primers to see if they were live? And if there were live primers present do you agree that they are not dummy rounds?
 
Do you think that AD Halls and HGR should have looked at the primers to see if they were live? And if there were live primers present do you agree that they are not dummy rounds?
How different is the live primer from a fired primer?
 

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How different is the live primer from a fired primer?
A live primer is round flat piece centered at the bottom or rear of the cartridge. Here's an image showing that.

6-shot-cylinder.png



A fired or punched primer will have a pronounced dimple in it.

1873 Single-Action Cattleman Revolver
 
A live primer has enough force to do damage to a person on the other side of the barrel.

I've seen some dummy rounds, they have intact dummy primers, NOT previously fired primers.
So in fact a dummy could have a realistic looking primer.
 
Replying to Datchery. I hope I have quoted the question <modsnip>

The weapon is a historic design -- not F Lee Pieta as stated, but F.LLI Pietta (not that it matters because the answer to your question is the same).

This is a single-action revolver. That means that it is not fired simply by pulling (squeezing) the triggere! The revolver must first be "cocked" by drawing the hammer back (usually with the thumb of the operating hand) to what is called a "full *advertiser censored*" position. The reason that is important is that the hammer can be drawn back to a half-*advertiser censored* position. It is in the half-*advertiser censored* condition that the weapon is loaded or unloaded or inspected. See note about "going off half-cocked" below.

The round thing (which has been wrongly referred to here as a "drum") is called the "cylinder" and it is in the cylinder that the rounds/bullets are loaded. Unlike modern double-action revolvers, the cylinder does NOT swing out for loading/unloading/inspection. Rather, you can see on the side of the weapon (usually on the right side) just to the rear of the cylinder a "loading gate" which swings away from the frame and allows access to the rear of the cylinder --- ONE CHAMBER AT A TIME!! -- THIS IS IMPORTANT!)

In order to open the loading gate, the hammer must be in the half-*advertiser censored* position. When the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*, the trigger is blocked and the weapon cannot be discharged. While at half-*advertiser censored* with the loading gate open, the cylinder may be rotated so that each chamber may be inspected, unloaded or loaded. On the same side as the loading gate, there is a rod attached to the frame just forward of the cylinder and the rod is held in position by a spring. The operator may slide the rod to the rear of the frame whereupon it will enter the front end of the cylinder and push through the cylinder thus removing any casing or bullet that is in that perticular chamber of the cylinder. The rod is then released so that the cylinder may be rotated to the next position and similarly cleared/unloaded.

Typically, these revolvers have six chambers (hence the term "six-shooter") but may have only five or, in the case of .22 cal. revolvers, may have as many as nine chambers. Revolvers chambered for .45 Long Colt will not have more than six chambers because the rounds/bullets are too large (almost half an inch in diameter).

Okay; so How do you check the weapon?

I am not familiar enough with the F.LLI Pietta design to know for certain, but I base my answer on the Ruger Single-six which you can examine safely at any gun store where the clerk will have an unloaded weapon in his showcase and will be happy to demonstrate all the above and below. Make him think you are interested in buying because he is not going to respond well to "Oh, I was thinking about the homicide on the movie set . . . . Do not ask to see a F.LLI Pietta because he is not going to have one and he will immediately know why you are there! Ask to see a Ruger Single-six in any caliber like .357 or .44. Don't ask for .45 Long Colt because he may not stock that one.

The most reasonable way to check a single-action revolver for safe condition is to unload it by going to half-*advertiser censored*, opening the loading gate, and using the clearing rod to unload each chamber. Then you can observe the rear of the cylinder as you rotate it (it will turn freely and may or may not have little "click" detents during rotation) and assure that all the chambers are empty. THEN you would load whatever you wish to put into each of the chambers -- or only one or two of them. When that is conccluded, you would close the loading gate and release the hammer -- or just leave it at half-*advertiser censored*.

To fire the weapon, draw the hammer back to the full-cocked position, aim and squeeze the trigger. After the weapon has discharged (or not if you had it set to an empty chamber), nothing will happen until you draw the hammer back to the full cocked position which will cause the cylinder to rotate one increment thus placing the next chamber in position.

To "Safe the weapon" point the barrel to a safe place (not the sky!) away from people and things, hold the hammer securely and squeeze the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer. Best place to leave the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*.

GOING OFF HALF-COCKED

While you are looking at that Ruger Single-Six, ask the clerk about the "Transfer Bar." (The F.LLI Pietta almost surely did not have a transfer bar!)

A single-action revolver which is loaded and fully cocked might be dropped and the impact jolt could release the "sear" which holds the hammer in position. That would allow the hammer to swing forward and strike the bullet and discharge the weapon which could be aimed anywhere at that time. This is often seen in old Western movies and usually the bullet will hit a chandelier and the fixture will fall onto a table or onto a bad guy, etc. If you're old enough, you've seen such a movie. Always in black and white.

Such weapons COULD have the same thing happen if only half-cocked when dropped. That is always what we call "bad ****."

The weapon is said to have "gone off half-cocked."

TRANSFER BAR (circa 1972?)

Rules made in the early seventies required that a half-cocked or fully cocked revolver could not discharge unless the operator was squeezing the trigger while the hammer fell onto the ammunition/bullet.

As the trigger is squeezed, a bar moves up into a position between the hammer and the firing pin. The hammer strikes the transfer bar which, in turn, strikes the firing pin. The hammer has a lug above the place where the transfer bar will be such that IF the transfer bar is not in position, the hammer will strike the frame of the revolver above (usually) the firing pin and the firing pin will not move --- thus the weapon will not discharge.

The Ruger Single-six you are looking at will have a transfer bar and you will be able to observe what happens if you .... Well, just get the clerk to show you. It would be very difficult for me to explain without a video or series of pictures.

ANYWAY -- IN CONCLUSION

A.B. <modsnip> I would not expect him to know how to properly inspect the single-action revolver. That is why the movie company has an armorer and why it is reasonable to say that A.B. should have been able to rely on the "unloaded" weapon assurance when the weapon was handed to him. Whether the A.D. should have been allowed to handle the weapon between the armorer's preparation is a question for someone else.

THE QUICK CHECK we are taught to use with double-action revolvers does NOT APPLY to single-action revolvers. I don't happen to like A.B., but he is being criticized for not checking the weapon and l submit that he could NOT have been expected to know how to do that. I would have been expected to know how to do it because I am a self-confessed "gun nut."

I hope that helps somebody.
C

Excellent explanation! Very well done. THANK YOU so much, Cadillac84. : )
 
Replying to Datchery. I hope I have quoted the question <modsnip>

The weapon is a historic design -- not F Lee Pieta as stated, but F.LLI Pietta (not that it matters because the answer to your question is the same).

This is a single-action revolver. That means that it is not fired simply by pulling (squeezing) the triggere! The revolver must first be "cocked" by drawing the hammer back (usually with the thumb of the operating hand) to what is called a "full *advertiser censored*" position. The reason that is important is that the hammer can be drawn back to a half-*advertiser censored* position. It is in the half-*advertiser censored* condition that the weapon is loaded or unloaded or inspected. See note about "going off half-cocked" below.

The round thing (which has been wrongly referred to here as a "drum") is called the "cylinder" and it is in the cylinder that the rounds/bullets are loaded. Unlike modern double-action revolvers, the cylinder does NOT swing out for loading/unloading/inspection. Rather, you can see on the side of the weapon (usually on the right side) just to the rear of the cylinder a "loading gate" which swings away from the frame and allows access to the rear of the cylinder --- ONE CHAMBER AT A TIME!! -- THIS IS IMPORTANT!)

In order to open the loading gate, the hammer must be in the half-*advertiser censored* position. When the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*, the trigger is blocked and the weapon cannot be discharged. While at half-*advertiser censored* with the loading gate open, the cylinder may be rotated so that each chamber may be inspected, unloaded or loaded. On the same side as the loading gate, there is a rod attached to the frame just forward of the cylinder and the rod is held in position by a spring. The operator may slide the rod to the rear of the frame whereupon it will enter the front end of the cylinder and push through the cylinder thus removing any casing or bullet that is in that perticular chamber of the cylinder. The rod is then released so that the cylinder may be rotated to the next position and similarly cleared/unloaded.

Typically, these revolvers have six chambers (hence the term "six-shooter") but may have only five or, in the case of .22 cal. revolvers, may have as many as nine chambers. Revolvers chambered for .45 Long Colt will not have more than six chambers because the rounds/bullets are too large (almost half an inch in diameter).

Okay; so How do you check the weapon?

I am not familiar enough with the F.LLI Pietta design to know for certain, but I base my answer on the Ruger Single-six which you can examine safely at any gun store where the clerk will have an unloaded weapon in his showcase and will be happy to demonstrate all the above and below. Make him think you are interested in buying because he is not going to respond well to "Oh, I was thinking about the homicide on the movie set . . . . Do not ask to see a F.LLI Pietta because he is not going to have one and he will immediately know why you are there! Ask to see a Ruger Single-six in any caliber like .357 or .44. Don't ask for .45 Long Colt because he may not stock that one.

The most reasonable way to check a single-action revolver for safe condition is to unload it by going to half-*advertiser censored*, opening the loading gate, and using the clearing rod to unload each chamber. Then you can observe the rear of the cylinder as you rotate it (it will turn freely and may or may not have little "click" detents during rotation) and assure that all the chambers are empty. THEN you would load whatever you wish to put into each of the chambers -- or only one or two of them. When that is conccluded, you would close the loading gate and release the hammer -- or just leave it at half-*advertiser censored*.

To fire the weapon, draw the hammer back to the full-cocked position, aim and squeeze the trigger. After the weapon has discharged (or not if you had it set to an empty chamber), nothing will happen until you draw the hammer back to the full cocked position which will cause the cylinder to rotate one increment thus placing the next chamber in position.

To "Safe the weapon" point the barrel to a safe place (not the sky!) away from people and things, hold the hammer securely and squeeze the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer. Best place to leave the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*.

GOING OFF HALF-COCKED

While you are looking at that Ruger Single-Six, ask the clerk about the "Transfer Bar." (The F.LLI Pietta almost surely did not have a transfer bar!)

A single-action revolver which is loaded and fully cocked might be dropped and the impact jolt could release the "sear" which holds the hammer in position. That would allow the hammer to swing forward and strike the bullet and discharge the weapon which could be aimed anywhere at that time. This is often seen in old Western movies and usually the bullet will hit a chandelier and the fixture will fall onto a table or onto a bad guy, etc. If you're old enough, you've seen such a movie. Always in black and white.

Such weapons COULD have the same thing happen if only half-cocked when dropped. That is always what we call "bad ****."

The weapon is said to have "gone off half-cocked."

TRANSFER BAR (circa 1972?)

Rules made in the early seventies required that a half-cocked or fully cocked revolver could not discharge unless the operator was squeezing the trigger while the hammer fell onto the ammunition/bullet.

As the trigger is squeezed, a bar moves up into a position between the hammer and the firing pin. The hammer strikes the transfer bar which, in turn, strikes the firing pin. The hammer has a lug above the place where the transfer bar will be such that IF the transfer bar is not in position, the hammer will strike the frame of the revolver above (usually) the firing pin and the firing pin will not move --- thus the weapon will not discharge.

The Ruger Single-six you are looking at will have a transfer bar and you will be able to observe what happens if you .... Well, just get the clerk to show you. It would be very difficult for me to explain without a video or series of pictures.

ANYWAY -- IN CONCLUSION

A.B. <modsnip> I would not expect him to know how to properly inspect the single-action revolver. That is why the movie company has an armorer and why it is reasonable to say that A.B. should have been able to rely on the "unloaded" weapon assurance when the weapon was handed to him. Whether the A.D. should have been allowed to handle the weapon between the armorer's preparation is a question for someone else.

THE QUICK CHECK we are taught to use with double-action revolvers does NOT APPLY to single-action revolvers. I don't happen to like A.B., but he is being criticized for not checking the weapon and l submit that he could NOT have been expected to know how to do that. I would have been expected to know how to do it because I am a self-confessed "gun nut."

I hope that helps somebody.
C

Great explanation. Could you explain Russian Roulette?
 
I have a question—why would dummy rounds be in the gun. Why wouldn’t it be empty?

I understand they’re used in films as props—actor loading the gun for example. Or for practice in loading the gun.

The rounds can be seen from the front of the gun (the camera view, in many cases.) If the dummy rounds weren't in the 5 chambers in the cylinder not aligned with the barrel it would be quite obvious that those chambers were empty, making the movie scene unrealistic and laughable. MOO.

edited for a typo or two
 
I have a question—why would dummy rounds be in the gun. Why wouldn’t it be empty?

I understand they’re used in films as props—actor loading the gun for example. Or for practice in loading the gun.
You bring up something else.

If they want to film a close up of someone loading a revolver would they use dummy rounds with holes in the side of the case which could be seen by viewers or the kind with BB's in them that armorer Clay Van Sickle demonstrated in the link above?
 
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