Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #4

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I have had shell casings expand and jam a revolver. Couldn't rotate cylinder, couldn't *advertiser censored* hammer, couldn't open the crane to unload.
Only tool I had was a beer tab (remember those) and I picked at it till I could make it work. It took the rest of the 6 pack to remedy the problem.
 
With respect, I believe the number in this case is 5, because of the standard practice in single action side-loading revolvers of having an empty chamber under the hammer after loading.

I would suggest that the bystander's description of Zachry's accident (the gun “went off right in her hands,”) is consistent with her violating this practice while loading a gun with blanks. What can happen in these cases is that the hammer slips from the loader's thumb when lowering it from half-*advertiser censored* position and fires the round under the hammer.

This suggestion presumes facts not in evidence: that Zachry was loading a weapon at the time and that the weapon was a single action side-loading revolver. So not a firm conclusion, but something to watch for as accounts dribble out from witnesses.

Well then, perhaps HGR as armorer is incorrect, as she says she put SIX dummies in (when you're making a movie, there should be no need to have an empty chamber, as you are shooting a film that requires the gun to only APPEAR to be loaded).

With blanks, it would be different. But she states she put all dummies (as is industry standard). I have to say I don't believe her.

Yes, if I were loading my revolver, I would obviously leave a chamber blank. But if I were filming a movie in which the protagonist fires his gun 15 times over the period of an hour, each time hoping for the "right" take of the shooter, the gun and the hand doing the shooting, I'd fill all chambers.

What you're suggesting is standard safety practice for live ammo and blanks.

Zachry ought not to have been loading anything into a real Colt .45. She was a propmaster (and former wardrobe person?) Industry standard is to load with dummies, not blanks.

Blanks require special handling, and the crew must be notified, so that they can wear industry (and OSHA) required hearing gear (and sometimes, eye gear). Blanks are not shot at random on film sets, as they can injure. They are not used in close-ups without special equipment.

When the scene calls for the actor to "shoot" by pulling the trigger, all that's needed later is the addition of sound - you can go watch lots of Westerns and see that there's almost never any smoke/flash (and that's realistic, as real handguns do not emit noticeable amounts of gas, flame or smoke when shot). It's the sound that convinces the audience, and that's been added to films since sound first came into the movies.

If Zachry was handed a gun with blanks and she somehow had no trigger discipline, it only goes further to show how inexperienced the crew was.

Propmasters are not supposed to load weapons, at all.
 
The problem still exists for westerns and older period pieces---there are no air soft guns that look like cowboy times, for example.

Which is why they use disabled, non-functioning weapons for most of the shooting. It's a big business (plugging the barrel of older or reproduction weapons). SK surely had both kinds (they got their plugged revolver somewhere). They are great for closeups and no chance of injury, everyone can relax.

A good friend of mine sells them (won't rent) to filmmakers. He does the plugging himself (and also can unplug, as his hobby is having a home machine shop).

In the right lighting and from a distance, airsoft revolvers can pass - but they had a plugged one on the set, which visually would look real. The villains in this picture had long guns, only Alec had a revolver.
 
Three different topics. One was my attempt to clarify your statement about loading side-loading revolvers in general and how many rounds one could expect an authentic re-creator of a ca. 1880 gunfight to fire before reloading. My point was was that 5 is more likely than 6, but both are possible.

The second was an aside, which probably should have been a separate post, about the oft-reported incident where Zachry short herself in the foot with a blank. I still hold to the description I gave as a current working hypothesis, subject to change if additional information arises. If Zachry didn't inadvertently discharge the weapon and it was a side-loading single action weapon, then the only alternative explanation I can come up with is that she pointed the weapon at her foot, cocked it, and pulled the trigger. I find that less likely.

The third is the issue of how many rounds HGR loaded when she thought she was loading the gun with dummies. I have no hypothesis there, and did not intend to comment on that topic.

Sorry for the mixup.
 
Three different topics. One was my attempt to clarify your statement about loading side-loading revolvers in general and how many rounds one could expect an authentic re-creator of a ca. 1880 gunfight to fire before reloading. My point was was that 5 is more likely than 6, but both are possible.

The second was an aside, which probably should have been a separate post, about the oft-reported incident where Zachry short herself in the foot with a blank. I still hold to the description I gave as a current working hypothesis, subject to change if additional information arises. If Zachry didn't inadvertently discharge the weapon and it was a side-loading single action weapon, then the only alternative explanation I can come up with is that she pointed the weapon at her foot, cocked it, and pulled the trigger. I find that less likely.

The third is the issue of how many rounds HGR loaded when she thought she was loading the gun with dummies. I have no hypothesis there, and did not intend to comment on that topic.

Sorry for the mixup.

I find your posts very thought-provoking. I do get what you are saying (realism would call for 5 bullets in a typical 19th century use of a revolver, and that's how my dad kept his when we traveled).

You're making me think, though. For most usages on set, 6 dummies would work just fine. Endless takes. Then, when a blank was needed, depending on how many shots were to be fired (emptying the gun would be sort of silly in a running gunfight like the one they were shooting - one would want to conserve their 5 bullets), 5 blanks should be loaded BUT, then the gun needs to be reloaded for each take. That's why the armorer is on set (to exchange ammo, load the right number of blanks). If the scene calls for just one blank to be shot, then I suppose 5 takes could be taken, one blank at a time, without reloading. This is why there's usually a 15 minute AD/script supervisor/armorer meeting beforehand.

I no longer trust DH's view on what was inside the gun when he had HGR open it. If she thought she loaded it with 2 blanks and 1 dummy (or did load it with that), that speaks to a brief scene in which Alec was supposed to fire twice (get a flash bang, requiring ear protection, etc). Then, they'd have to reload for each take. That live (filmed) scene was supposed to take place a bit later in the afternoon, so perhaps HGR (with her split duties) planned to be there fore that. Then, we have the odd scenario where she mistook live rounds (?!?) for blanks.

It almost makes sense if she mistook dummies for live rounds, since aside from the lack of a little bump on the end of the casing, they would look the same. If anyone had opened the cylinder and looked from the shooter's perspective, before any firing was done, they would have seen that they were live. But no one did. It was supposed to be 3 people.

And of course, on set, guns are never pointed directly at people, even with blanks, nor should people fool around and *advertiser censored* and pull the trigger when rehearsal doesn't call for it. If an actor wants to practice with repeating drawing, cocking and firing the trigger, gun needs 5-6 dummies. Which I believe is what HGR claims she did.

It's all very curious.

I truly appreciate your expertise and the dialogue. If I had been the director of this film (don't I wish, secret dream of mine), I would have made Grandpa Rust/Alec learn to handle a gun the way a real 19th century grandpa would have done (with 5 dummies, as you say). Then practice, practice, before the armorer loaded and carefully supervised crew while the blanks were used.
 
From the LA Times article:

In the days following the shooting, Zachry reflected on the events immediately preceding the tragedy in a text conversation with a fellow New Mexico film professional, who spoke on condition of anonymity. That conversation was viewed by The Times.

As she struggled to understand how a live bullet had ended up in Baldwin’s gun, Zachry described how a new box of .45-caliber Long Colt dummy rounds had arrived on the set that day.


A new box of dummy rounds 12 days into the shoot? Why? Where did they come from?
 
New Box of Dummy Rounds. Abracadabra?
From the LA Times article: "...Zachry... conversation with a fellow New Mexico film professional,... That conversation was viewed by The Times.
... Zachry described how a new box of .45-caliber Long Colt dummy rounds had arrived on the set that day."
A new box of dummy rounds 12 days into the shoot? Why? Where did they come from?
@DI_Isokawa bbm sbm for focus bbm. Thx for you post w quotes (I hit paywall at story). Yes, exactly, as you said: Where did they come from? Esp'ly 12 days into the shoot.

As LA Times viewed the conversation, seems like texting imo which could have been quoted directly. But the box-arrived-on-set phrasing was not shown as a direct quotation from the Zachry & Somebody text-convo.


A
quote from reporter's wording, not from text-convo:
"..new box ... dummy rounds had arrived on the set that day." bbm
Arrived how? Did a FedEx, UPS, USPS driver deliver the box of dummy rounds to the set? A local courier service? Then left at gate/security booth at location? Was box actually passed into HRG's hands on location? Or whose?

Did Zachry have access to safe?
Had the box of rounds already been on the set from day one, previously tucked away in a safe on a prop truck/trailer. Maybe a box that Zachry had just not noticed before?
my2ct.
 
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According to HGR, four people had access to the safe: herself, DH, SZ and JS. However, it's not clear that ammo was stored in the safe. She says she secured the guns in the safe at night, and on the day of the shooting, at lunch time.

But the ammo was somewhere else. It's entirely possible that the ammo was just recently "found," but obviously, LE is looking for how the live ammo got onto the set.

It would be crazy if ammo was mis-packaged somehow. Places that manufacture dummies are very unlikely to manufacture using gunpowder in the same area. So I don't think that's where this is going.
 
I think there's been a bit of confusion, especially for those unfamiliar with New Mexico, about the geography where the shooting occurred, distances involved and so forth. People keep using the term "set," which while technically correct, is somewhat misleading. This was not like filming on the Universal lot, it was much much more of a location shoot, and phrases like "allowed live ammunition on the set" take on different connotations when you see just where the "set" was situated.

So I've annotated some Google Earth screenshots in the hope of clarifying things.

The first screenshot shows the location of the Bonanza Creek western town relative to the southern edge of Santa Fe and other landmarks, like the NM National Guard installation mentioned as a possible source of the sound of gunfire. "Hotel Row" is Cerrillos Rd/NM Hwy 14 and there are plenty of decent places for a hundred bucks a night or less. This screenshot shows only the northern half of the 2000 acre (8 sq. kilometer) ranch.

The second shot shows the entrance to the ranch. The area shown is about 400 acres, or a a little less than a quarter of the whole ranch. The point marked "Gatehouse" is the little red shack seen in MSM photos with the white gate beside it. 1.5 miles of classic New Mexico dirt road takes you to the western town.

The last shot is of the town itself, with the church at the far northern end.

I hope these give people outside of New Mexico an idea of what the locale of shooting was like.
 

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