All About Chloroform#2

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I hope this is the right thread to ask this question.Would there be a chemical reaction with decom.fluids and scotchgard ?
 
Bumping just because the chloroform issue seems to circled back around for discussion.
 
From JWG's post of the email correspondence between Oakridge Lab and OCSO lab:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4081493&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO[/ame]


-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:15 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, we are still very curious about the very high levels of chloroform we saw in the trunk sample. I know you said nothing was found in the house search, but did the mother or other family member or friend/other relative have any access to pharmaceutical supplies ie working in a lab or hospital, veterinary clinic etc?? Just a thought. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:52 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mom is a registered nurse in a old folks home. But the daughter had sole custody of the vehicle. However, a forensic search of the home computer revealed Google search on How to make chloroform. They are trying to pin down a time on the search to see who conducted the search.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit
 
Valhall said:
So I got to play with chloroform. The experiment with the duct tape confirmed two things: 1. if your fingers or the duct tape are wet with chloroform it's hard to make a fingerprint because the adhesive plasticizes and your fingers just slip across it, 2. even if you did originally get a fingerprint on the adhesive, the chloroform would eventually plasticize the adhesive and with any pressure from the outside of the duct tape (i.e. in placement), the fingerprint would go away. In addition, it confirmed that chloroform plays heck on getting duct tape to stick.

The adhesive from duct tape is grey on your fingers when it comes off (and it's real dang hard to get back off your fingers!!!)...so the clear goo on the knife isn't the duct tape adhesive.

P.S. Getting limited amounts of chloroform on your fingers isn't a big deal. It just dries your skin out. If it got on more sensitive skin I can see it causing the irritation or even worse, but it didn't bother my hands at all.
Click to expand...

Carefull, it's a suspected carcinogen. Hazard alert reads "prolonged inhalation may be fatal; toxic and narcotic my inhalation; ingestion may be fatal". LD50=908mg/kg, TLD=49mg/cubic meter.
 
In another thread BondJamesBond mentioned that he thought the chloroform was a product of decomp - a theory I tend to agree with - however, I mentioned that I had been told that "experts" had determined the levels were too high to be just the product of decomp - and he suggested that I bring this up in the chloroform thread so here I am.

The person who told me that is not on WS but I think I recall it being discussed here too - only some of that discussion was before certain document dumps. So I'm wondering if there was clarification in any of the doc dumps that settled this - were the levels too high to be product of decomp? What are your thoughts on this argument now?

And BJB, I hope you stop by to weigh in on this as well........
 
aafromaa said:
In another thread BondJamesBond mentioned that he thought the chloroform was a product of decomp - a theory I tend to agree with - however, I mentioned that I had been told that "experts" had determined the levels were too high to be just the product of decomp - and he suggested that I bring this up in the chloroform thread so here I am.

The person who told me that is not on WS but I think I recall it being discussed here too - only some of that discussion was before certain document dumps. So I'm wondering if there was clarification in any of the doc dumps that settled this - were the levels too high to be product of decomp? What are your thoughts on this argument now?

And BJB, I hope you stop by to weigh in on this as well........
Click to expand...

If the chloroform was just a product of decomp, how do you account for the googled searches for "how to make chloroform" from the Anthony computer in March 2008?
 
Chloroform is produced during decomp and is one of the many chemicals produced during the process.

Personal Dr. Vass being who he is I think would account for such with in a certain range knowing that its a product of the decomp process.

To me its seems he is mentioning it because the amount found is not with in the normal range of what would be produced by decomp. Then again I could be way off base.

Yeah this case has been a little strange from the begining but most of the evidence in this case is pretty standard stuff.....this chloroform though just comes way out of left field for me.

Makes me wonder why Dr. Vass brought it up then kind of backed away saying well maybe we shouldn't have discussed it in his emails or something to that effect.
 
lacey clementine said:
If the chloroform was just a product of decomp, how do you account for the googled searches for "how to make chloroform" from the Anthony computer in March 2008?
Click to expand...
Fair question, but I am not convinced that the chloroform search had any more to do with Caylee's death than the other searches in March 2008. Didn't she also search for "neck breaking" & "household weapons" among other things? I can't say that those searches are any more or less connected to Caylee's death than the chloroform search... Unless, the level of chloroform really was too high to be decomp product - then there might be something to it - which is why I'd like to have a better understanding of that than I do now.
 
marspiter said:
Chloroform is produced during decomp and is one of the many chemicals produced during the process.

Personal Dr. Vass being who he is I think would account for such with in a certain range knowing that its a product of the decomp process.

To me its seems he is mentioning it because the amount found is not with in the normal range of what would be produced by decomp. Then again I could be way off base.

Yeah this case has been a little strange from the begining but most of the evidence in this case is pretty standard stuff.....this chloroform though just comes way out of left field for me.

Makes me wonder why Dr. Vass brought it up then kind of backed away saying well maybe we shouldn't have discussed it in his emails or something to that effect.
Click to expand...

In one email Dr. Vass said we are all curious about the very high levels of chloroform and asked if anyone had access to pharmaceutical supplies. This leads me to believe the levels were much higher than normal too.

In the email where he talks about backing off, he also said that the chloroform info was released before he had told any of his people. I understood that to mean that he spoken with LE over the phone and it was released to the media before he sent in a written report. Maybe he was catching grief for not following protocol. I could be way off base here, clearly these emails could be interpreted differently.
 
aafromaa said:
Fair question, but I am not convinced that the chloroform search had any more to do with Caylee's death than the other searches in March 2008. Didn't she also search for "neck breaking" & "household weapons" among other things? I can't say that those searches are any more or less connected to Caylee's death than the chloroform search... Unless, the level of chloroform really was too high to be decomp product - then there might be something to it - which is why I'd like to have a better understanding of that than I do now.
Click to expand...

IDK either. But isn't it rather odd (to say the least) that there were google searches for making chloroform just weeks before the 2 year old disappears and very high levels of chloroform are then found to be in her trunk that has signs and smells of decomp?:waitasec:
 
lacey clementine said:
IDK either. But isn't it rather odd (to say the least) that there were google searches for making chloroform just weeks before the 2 year old disappears and very high levels of chloroform are then found to be in her trunk that has signs and smells of decomp?:waitasec:
Click to expand...
Yes - odd to say the least. But please tell me more about "very high levels" - that's why I was asking. I know original media reports said "very high levels" and then there were discussions of whether this could have been some "accidental" creation from unintentional combining of certain chemicals and then there was discussion about chloroform being one of the products of decomp. But then came the doc dumps and I'm trying to find out if someone who understands such things better than I do, can determine from any of them whether the level was indeed "very high" or whether there are other explanations for a higher level or what might have been learned - if anything - from the reports. Ideally, someone will state what was proven or disproven (to them) and provide a link or a quote from the report/document and explain why they reached the conclusion they now have about "very high levels" or why they don't think they actually are that high or why a high level might still be a product of decomp.

Please remember that I said, "I tend to agree" that the chloroform was a product of decomp - not that I know it was - I'm still open to the possibility that it was more than that - but not willing to make the leap from the computer search to a conclusion that KC actually used it on Caylee without more understanding of the "science" than I now have. (After seeing some of the reports in the document dumps, I understand more about why an "expert" is called to the stand to testify about the conclusions that reports lead to rather than just giving the jury the report and letting them reach their own conclusions. Some of this stuff is a bit over my head and I need some WS "experts" to exlpain it.)
 
aafromaa said:
Yes - odd to say the least. But please tell me more about "very high levels" - that's why I was asking. I know original media reports said "very high levels" and then there were discussions of whether this could have been some "accidental" creation from unintentional combining of certain chemicals and then there was discussion about chloroform being one of the products of decomp. But then came the doc dumps and I'm trying to find out if someone who understands such things better than I do, can determine from any of them whether the level was indeed "very high" or whether there are other explanations for a higher level or what might have been learned - if anything - from the reports. Ideally, someone will state what was proven or disproven (to them) and provide a link or a quote from the report/document and explain why they reached the conclusion they now have about "very high levels" or why they don't think they actually are that high or why a high level might still be a product of decomp.

Please remember that I said, "I tend to agree" that the chloroform was a product of decomp - not that I know it was - I'm still open to the possibility that it was more than that - but not willing to make the leap from the computer search to a conclusion that KC actually used it on Caylee without more understanding of the "science" than I now have. (After seeing some of the reports in the document dumps, I understand more about why an "expert" is called to the stand to testify about the conclusions that reports lead to rather than just giving the jury the report and letting them reach their own conclusions. Some of this stuff is a bit over my head and I need some WS "experts" to exlpain it.)
Click to expand...

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:15 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, we are still very curious about the very high levels of chloroform we saw in the trunk sample. I know you said nothing was found in the house search, but did the mother or other family member or friend/other relative have any access to pharmaceutical supplies ie working in a lab or hospital, veterinary clinic etc?? Just a thought. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D

I am assuming this man has an answer. This was fairly early on in this case.
 
lacey clementine said:
-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:15 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, we are still very curious about the very high levels of chloroform we saw in the trunk sample. I know you said nothing was found in the house search, but did the mother or other family member or friend/other relative have any access to pharmaceutical supplies ie working in a lab or hospital, veterinary clinic etc?? Just a thought. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D

I am assuming this man has an answer. This was fairly early on in this case.
Click to expand...
Good point. Thank you.

However, wasn't there further email about the early release of chloroform info being a mistake - referring to the release not the info - but still my question is when the report(s) did come out - which I think was about a month or so later but not released to public for quite some time after that - did they confirm or contradict the "very high levels"?
 
I have read all of the forensic docs, but am not sure if the labs ever tested the trunk air components with two-cycle oil. GA said he kept some in a gas can-
I wonder if two stroke oil could gum up her fuel injection, causing her to "run out of gas"....Have read it will ruin your catalytic converter if used in a car, and when they start to go, they emit a nasty smell....But it is a more sulfuric smell, if ya know what I mean.
Anyone know more about 2 cycle oil and chloroform, or anything about using it in a car that can be posted on the Pontiac thread?
 
treeseeker said:
The "unusually high levels of chloroform" were mentioned in this LIBS report from the body farm, pg 27 and again on pg 29:

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

it states the amount of chloroform is much higher than usually found during decomp.
Click to expand...

Add to all of this the "control" that they tested, a section from the blanket (that was SOAKED with dried decomp) from the little boy whose mother kept him in the trunk for months after he had died, and the LACK of chloroform on that control sample, and it does not add up that the very high levels found in the trunk of Casey's car are simply normal decomp chloroform. Add in the coincidence? of the chloroform searches in March of that same year, and missing children, and neck breaking, etc...and it does not bode well for Casey Anthony.
 
Whyamisointerested said:
Could it simply be the decomp. and cleaning products , mixed together?
Click to expand...

To my knowledge, the only cleaning product documented as found in the trunk was the empty Arm & Hammer laundry detergent bottle.

Good question though!

ETA: ack!!....forgot the Sneaker Cleaner
 
Could the chloroform have come from the reaction between butanone (from the car exhaust) and bleach (used to clean the trunk and remove the smell)? Also, could the gunk on the paper towels be explained by the defatting/saponification of skin (chemical burning due to bleach exposure)? I know this is gross....sorry.
 
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