Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

[The Observer]

I must say it does really surprise me that she was obviously placed near to the scoutgrounds. But maybe that was a bit of an attempt at reverse psychology on GBC's part - he could say "As if I would put her there"? He may have been trying to make it look like a set-up, if he was going to try and implicate someone else known to them. Or it could have been pure stupidity, which wouldn't surprise me.

Hes proved just how moronic he is by his searches. I mean "plead the fifth" really!? Sheesh.

You've also got to wonder whether he ever tried to stitch up TM as the killer? Apparently, he voluntarily gave police the info about that relationship on day one - so I have read somewhere - IMO.

Oh I think she's gonna cop alot from defence at trial. Since she's 'turned on him' (in his eyes) you can bet it will be on in court. Anything she has ever said or anything he knows about her you can bet it will be used when she takes the stand.

 

[LauraMars]

Marlywings, I know what you're saying re what the inspector said etc, but at the same time, he was holding so much close to his chest obviously.

The mere fact that they had that house in lock down from the first day, as well as the cars etc, says to me that they were at least strongly suspecting he may have killed Allison. The police who were first on the scene obviously noticed enough, even if that was just GBC's behaviour, to put the full alert on.

MOO

 

[Thinking]

It doesn't really surprise me at all that they may have searched there. Although the main search area was a lot more confined to around the Brookfield house and nearby surrounds, quite a few people who live out near the bridge said they had choppers and I think maybe kayakers searching waterways? Certainly if people in the Mt. Crosby area reported any strange goings on, early on in the piece, the police (or SES, locals) may well have searched under that bridge. It is on one of the main routes out of Brookfield. Also, just the fact that it is so close to the scout grounds, and the family connection there, they would have to have had a bit of a look around surely?

Yes I wonder if the vicinity of the scout grounds may have been a reason why they would have done a quick search of obvious spots such as the bridge, earlier in the piece?

I also say this because, in the days before Allison was found, there were police searching an area of land on Bielby Rd which is close to where I live (Kenmore Hills/Chapel Hill border) and I wondered why on earth they were there, when it seemed a bit far away from the official search area at that point. I then realised that the Kenmore Scout grounds were in very close proximity to where they were searching. I have oftened wondered since then, if that is why they were there. Alternatively, perhaps they were just getting to the outer radius of the searching zone, who knows.

 

[marlywings]

Marlywings, I know what you're saying re what the inspector said etc, but at the same time, he was holding so much close to his chest obviously.

The mere fact that they had that house in lock down from the first day, as well as the cars etc, says to me that they were at least strongly suspecting he may have killed Allison. The police who were first on the scene obviously noticed enough, even if that was just GBC's behaviour, to put the full alert on.

MOO

No doubt at all they were suspicious from day one. Maybe they were keeping Allison's family in mind & hoping for a positive resolution for them. From the time her body was found it was classed as homicide investigation & had been treating it as such for some time.

I think it's going to be a long haul until the committal hearing when we might hear more about the case....who knows when that will be especially when look at other cases. Another high profile case is nowhere near a hearing & it's been 12 months since the guy was arrested.

 

[DrWatson]

Yes I wonder if the vicinity of the scout grounds may have been a reason why they would have done a quick search of obvious spots such as the bridge, earlier in the piece?

I also say this because, in the days before Allison was found, there were police searching an area of land on Bielby Rd which is close to where I live (Kenmore Hills/Chapel Hill border) and I wondered why on earth they were there, when it seemed a bit far away from the official search area at that point. I then realised that the Kenmore Scout grounds were in very close proximity to where they were searching. I have oftened wondered since then, if that is why they were there. Alternatively, perhaps they were just getting to the outer radius of the searching zone, who knows.

The Police searching the Bielby Rd area may have something to do with what they were looking for in relation to the Kenmore Roundabout. For those not familiar with the area, the Kenmore roundabout, and the Kenmore Village shopping centre have Bielby Road running up behind it. Maybe the Kenmore Scout grounds was an area of interest - for example as a place where things like chains, ropes, etc could be found?

OK - I just had a couple of hours break, and took a quick spin out to the Kholo Creek bridge, just to satisfy myself of something. If you pull off the road on the right side of the bridge, as I suggested in the post a page or two ago, then you can drive far enough off the road that at night time, and with lights off, you'd be very hard to spot. A passing vehicle MAY get a very quick glimpse of reflection - maybe. Perhaps that is what the police have been asking about when they ask if anyone spotted anything unusual near Kholo Creek?

There is an old bit of fence, covered in vine and creeper etc, BUT this stops well short of Kholo Creek itself, and there at least TWO spots where a body could be dragged from a vehicle, pushed into the bush, and would roll a fair way down into the scrub, which is actually the bank of Little Ugly Creek just before it runs into Kholo Creek. It is very steep there, as the creek itself - when not in flood - is quite a long way below. And from there, it would be perfectly feasible for it to be washed down into a flood surge, round the corner, and under the bridge. I still think it is pure luck that she got snagged there and didn't go out into the main river.

I went up Wirrabara Rd to the creek and beyond, and I walked a little way into the creek bed running back towards Kholo - and I really can't see a body getting washed down there easily - there are big rocks, trees, and snags galore. Yes, I'm well aware of just how much force a flood surge can exert, but on the odds, I think the spot much closer to where Little Ugly Creek runs into Kholo Creek would be my pick.

By the way, the cross and the flowers looked in pretty good nick too - well done to those who keep it that way

 

[Gemini Girl]

Hi fellow sleuthers

have been away in Melbourne and Tasmania.

Visited Port Arthur and the memorial to the victims of Martin Bryant.

Very moving, beautiful, peaceful and at the same time, eerie

The memorial is not on any guided tour as far as I can tell, is not actually hidden, but also not highlighted, I guess so as not to give undue attention to the perpetrator.

::candle::candle::candle::candle:

JMO MOO

 

[wakeskate]

I agree DrWatson, I wouldn't rule out the bridge as the dumping spot except for a couple of problems.

- Too close to the road
- Too close to the Brisbane River

This is my guess for where.

Specifically this hole seemed weird to me. There was no reason why it would wash away like that except for a human or animal digging it out.

I have seem whole carcasses of dead animals (cattle, deer etc) dragged 10 metres overnight in the D'Aguilar Forest, so there are predators in there that will easily pull a body out of a hole like that.

 

[linette]

I agree DrWatson, I wouldn't rule out the bridge as the dumping spot except for a couple of problems.

- Too close to the road
- Too close to the Brisbane River

This is my guess for where.

Specifically this hole seemed weird to me. There was no reason why it would wash away like that except for a human or animal digging it out.

I have seem whole carcasses of dead animals (cattle, deer etc) dragged 10 metres overnight in the D'Aguilar Forest, so there are predators in there that will easily pull a body out of a hole like that.

That's interesting. An animal could have moved the body to somewhere and THEN it has washed down. He could have had it quite well hidden, or so he thought. He might have got one hell of a shock when he found out the body had been found.

 

[Mountain Misst]

I agree DrWatson, I wouldn't rule out the bridge as the dumping spot except for a couple of problems.

- Too close to the road
- Too close to the Brisbane River

This is my guess for where.

Specifically this hole seemed weird to me. There was no reason why it would wash away like that except for a human or animal digging it out.

I have seem whole carcasses of dead animals (cattle, deer etc) dragged 10 metres overnight in the D'Aguilar Forest, so there are predators in there that will easily pull a body out of a hole like that.

Wouldn't want to wander around there in the dark. Thanks for the pix.

SPOOKY........

Plse all - remember to put your pix up on the photo album page as well for all to see.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178134"]PICTURES from our locals *NO DISCUSSION* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[DrWatson]

I agree DrWatson, I wouldn't rule out the bridge as the dumping spot except for a couple of problems.

- Too close to the road
- Too close to the Brisbane River

This is my guess for where.

Specifically this hole seemed weird to me. There was no reason why it would wash away like that except for a human or animal digging it out.

I have seem whole carcasses of dead animals (cattle, deer etc) dragged 10 metres overnight in the D'Aguilar Forest, so there are predators in there that will easily pull a body out of a hole like that.

Yup - I take your points, but I looked through the excellent photos you put up yesterday, and that's why I took a drive out there today given that I had a couple of hours unexpected break.

Your points about too close to the road and the river were what I wanted to check on. I don't think it IS too close to the road - especially at night. I was able to tuck my 4WD in there today, on an angle, reversed right up to that bit of old fence. I reckon the one vehicle that passed me today would have been flat out spotting the vehicle, even in broad daylight. At night and with lights off - and quite possibly no traffic anyway - I think it would have been quite hard to spot. And assuming the perpetrator was familiar with that spot, he could be in, reverse up to the edge there, slide the body out of the back and down the bank, shut the door, and be driving off back along the road in less than a minute

The bit about too close to the river I would counter by suggesting that the perpetrator was NOT trying to get the body into the water. I think he was probably just trying to get it out of sight, down that steep bank which is reasonably densely covered in scrub and trees and undergrowth. I'm not talking about the bank of Kholo Creek itself - but the short stretch of Little Ugly Creek that runs parallel to the road hidden down that gully. If you want to check it out, given that you live close to there, you'll see where I mean if you find that bit of mesh fence, then have a look at the scrub just where the fence ends as it heads back towards Kholo Creek. A 4WD could reverse hard up against that spot, be pretty much out of sight of the road, and a body pushed down the bank there would normally be expected to be pretty well hidden.

And then the rains came..... (as I keep saying). I think the rains and flooding washed the body into the creek, but there seems to be a lot of folks who assume from that that she was placed IN the creek somewhere. What I'm suggesting is that she wasn't - and that it was only the flood surge that washed her off the bank into the creek.

That washout in your photo is not unusual on creek banks after a flood surge - we have a creek running through one of our paddocks, that floods quite regularly. And where there are roots such as in your picture, the scouring action of the water can cause an appearance very similar to that hole. I doubt (though not certain of course) that somebody would have gone to the exertion, time, and unnecessary trouble to dig a hole sideways into a bank, under tree roots, to bury somebody, when all they needed to do was roll her into the undergrowth.

I would be interested in your thoughts if you get the chance to go back and check out that spot I mentioned, including the steepness of the bank there where it drops away into the last section of Little Ugly Creek. One spot is close to where the fence ends, then there's another a couple of metres further towards Kholo. Imagine it in the dark, in the small hours of the morning, with no traffic, all lights out, and the vehicle reversed in on a slight angle to the road and well off the road. Feasible?

 

[Fuskier]

The Police searching the Bielby Rd area may have something to do with what they were looking for in relation to the Kenmore Roundabout. ... By the way, the cross and the flowers looked in pretty good nick too - well done to those who keep it that way

Great work Dr Watson. Thanks for visiting these sites and contributing your thoughts. You make some good points:
" ... If you pull off the road on the right side of the bridge, then you can drive far enough off the road that at night time, with lights off, you'd be very hard to spot. A passing vehicle MAY get a very quick glimpse of reflection - maybe...".
"... There are least TWO spots where a body could be dragged from a vehicle, pushed into the bush, and would roll a fair way down into the scrub, which is the bank of Little Ugly Creek just before it runs into Kholo Creek. It is very steep there, as the creek itself - when not in flood - is quite a long way below. And from there, it would be perfectly feasible for it to be washed down into a flood surge, round the corner, and under the bridge..."

IMO your analysis of it makes good sense too. We have two feasible possibilities between your investigations and hypothesis and Wakeskate's investigations and hypothesis. Allegedly, as reported in MSM, the two cars were witnessed at three different points along Kholo Creek that night. MOO,

 

[Mountain Misst]

I would be interested in your thoughts if you get the chance to go back and check out that spot I mentioned, including the steepness of the bank there where it drops away into the last section of Little Ugly Creek. One spot is close to where the fence ends, then there's another a couple of metres further towards Kholo. Imagine it in the dark, in the small hours of the morning, with no traffic, all lights out, and the vehicle reversed in on a slight angle to the road and well off the road. Feasible?

Feasible - I reckon so Doc. I'd turn the lights off, back up on a slight angle then... I'd go A over T and me and the 4wd would roll on down to --- until the SES came to rescue us. Oh and don't forget to call the RACQ for me, will you.

Would all turn out rather 'ugly' would it not... or up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

 

[DrWatson]

Feasible - I reckon so Doc. I'd turn the lights off, back up on a slight angle then... I'd go A over T and me and the 4wd would roll on down to --- until the SES came to rescue us. Oh and don't forget to call the RACQ for me, will you.

Ahh - but you're not a boy scout! :rocker::woohoo:

More seriously, though, especially if a second person was helping - say with a torch, guiding backwards, I reckon I could do the deed in about a minute flat.

 

[Judicious]

In one of those photos that Wakeskate has, there is a photo of a shirt down near the mud where Allison was found..does anyone know if this shirt has anything to do with GBC. Maybe he had to take it off cause it was full of caterpillars

I have to wonder if GBC knew that he couldn't claim Allisons insurance if a body wasn't found ?? I mean it seemed to be placed it in an area where it was possible to end up in the Brisbane river and possibly never be found.
MOO

 

[wakeskate]

Your points about too close to the road and the river were what I wanted to check on. I don't think it IS too close to the road - especially at night. I was able to tuck my 4WD in there today, on an angle, reversed right up to that bit of old fence. I reckon the one vehicle that passed me today would have been flat out spotting the vehicle, even in broad daylight. At night and with lights off - and quite possibly no traffic anyway - I think it would have been quite hard to spot. And assuming the perpetrator was familiar with that spot, he could be in, reverse up to the edge there, slide the body out of the back and down the bank, shut the door, and be driving off back along the road in less than a minute

It really depends how overgrown that area was before the police clear/flattened it all.

The bit about too close to the river I would counter by suggesting that the perpetrator was NOT trying to get the body into the water. I think he was probably just trying to get it out of sight, down that steep bank which is reasonably densely covered in scrub and trees and undergrowth. I'm not talking about the bank of Kholo Creek itself - but the short stretch of Little Ugly Creek that runs parallel to the road hidden down that gully. If you want to check it out, given that you live close to there, you'll see where I mean if you find that bit of mesh fence, then have a look at the scrub just where the fence ends as it heads back towards Kholo Creek. A 4WD could reverse hard up against that spot, be pretty much out of sight of the road, and a body pushed down the bank there would normally be expected to be pretty well hidden.

I think I know where you mean. That too would be a believable spot.
In the main creek where the body was found. I would have expected it to be washed out with the tide a long time ago. I think it was just luck that they found it where they did.

And then the rains came..... (as I keep saying). I think the rains and flooding washed the body into the creek, but there seems to be a lot of folks who assume from that that she was placed IN the creek somewhere. What I'm suggesting is that she wasn't - and that it was only the flood surge that washed her off the bank into the creek.

I also agree that the body wasn't placed in the tidal areas of the creek and that it washed down with the rain we had. People keep dismissing the amount of rain we had over that period. Yes it wasn't the flash flooding of 100mm in an hour, but we had over 150mm from Friday night and all day Saturday. The build up coming down those hills would have probably sent Wirrabara road under water for a while.

That washout in your photo is not unusual on creek banks after a flood surge - we have a creek running through one of our paddocks, that floods quite regularly. And where there are roots such as in your picture, the scouring action of the water can cause an appearance very similar to that hole. I doubt (though not certain of course) that somebody would have gone to the exertion, time, and unnecessary trouble to dig a hole sideways into a bank, under tree roots, to bury somebody, when all they needed to do was roll her into the undergrowth.

You are probably right here.
It just seemed to obvious when I walked down into the creek.
When I first looked up and down the creek I thought there is no way someone would just leave the body here. It was way too open and visible from the road. However when I found that little wash out and the stain on the ground that had animal scratching it was all too freaky to me. Thinking about it now though if the body was laying there and got washed away, so would have all the smells that attracted whatever animal was digging in that location.

I would be interested in your thoughts if you get the chance to go back and check out that spot I mentioned, including the steepness of the bank there where it drops away into the last section of Little Ugly Creek. One spot is close to where the fence ends, then there's another a couple of metres further towards Kholo. Imagine it in the dark, in the small hours of the morning, with no traffic, all lights out, and the vehicle reversed in on a slight angle to the road and well off the road. Feasible?

I didn't think so when I pulled up, but when you get under the bridge you feel safe and out of the view of the public.
I only have a small car, so I couldn't drive in as far as you.
Again if there was just a little bit of overgrowth in that area you could hide pretty well.
Maybe that is where the witness saw the white/blue 4wd parked with it's parking lights on.
Most people would dismiss it at the time as a fisherman down in the creek and not even think twice about it.

 

[DrWatson]

It really depends how overgrown that area was before the police clear/flattened it all.



I think I know where you mean. That too would be a believable spot.
In the main creek where the body was found. I would have expected it to be washed out with the tide a long time ago. I think it was just luck that they found it where they did.



I also agree that the body wasn't placed in the tidal areas of the creek and that it washed down with the rain we had. People keep dismissing the amount of rain we had over that period. Yes it wasn't the flash flooding of 100mm in an hour, but we had over 150mm from Friday night and all day Saturday. The build up coming down those hills would have probably sent Wirrabara road under water for a while.



You are probably right here.
It just seemed to obvious when I walked down into the creek.
When I first looked up and down the creek I thought there is no way someone would just leave the body here. It was way too open and visible from the road. However when I found that little wash out and the stain on the ground that had animal scratching it was all too freaky to me. Thinking about it now though if the body was laying there and got washed away, so would have all the smells that attracted whatever animal was digging in that location.



I didn't think so when I pulled up, but when you get under the bridge you feel safe and out of the view of the public.
I only have a small car, so I couldn't drive in as far as you.
Again if there was just a little bit of overgrowth in that area you could hide pretty well.
Maybe that is where the witness saw the white/blue 4wd parked with it's parking lights on.
Most people would dismiss it at the time as a fisherman down in the creek and not even think twice about it.

I think we're on the same page, as the saying goes

Remember that the vehicle we're assuming was used was a 4WD (probably the Captiva, possibly the Prado given that a white vehicle was possibly seen). So yes, I had no trouble backing right up to that spot - there's almost a tunnel into the undergrowth there, but I'm assuming that searchers went down through there.

It has certainly been flattened and chewed up by all the vehicles. searchers, forensics, etc. But I have been driving past that spot for years, and it was much more overgrown and shielded from the road before. But still would have been easy to get into.

Here (I hope, if this works OK) is a photo from Google Maps Street View of the little pull-off area I mean, from earlier this year, before the area was flattened etc. I've put a couple of arrows to the two spots. You can see that the car approaching would not see a vehicle reversed in where those arrows are until past - if at all. Especially at night. And for a car heading outbound, that would be outside the main beams of most headlights - but they may JUST catch a glimpse of reflection (and perhaps assume it's a couple doing what couples do). And of course, at that time of night, it would be odds on for there to be NO traffic at all.

See how I go with a photo:

 

[Mountain Misst]

I think we're on the same page, as the saying goes

Remember that the vehicle we're assuming was used was a 4WD (probably the Captiva, possibly the Prado given that a white vehicle was possibly seen). So yes, I had no trouble backing right up to that spot - there's almost a tunnel into the undergrowth there, but I'm assuming that searchers went down through there.

It has certainly been flattened and chewed up by all the vehicles. searchers, forensics, etc. But I have been driving past that spot for years, and it was much more overgrown and shielded from the road before. But still would have been easy to get into.

Here (I hope, if this works OK) is a photo from Google Maps Street View of the little pull-off area I mean, from earlier this year, before the area was flattened etc. I've put a couple of arrows to the two spots. You can see that the car approaching would not see a vehicle reversed in where those arrows are until past - if at all. Especially at night. And for a car heading outbound, that would be outside the main beams of most headlights - but they may JUST catch a glimpse of reflection (and perhaps assume it's a couple doing what couples do). And of course, at that time of night, it would be odds on for there to be NO traffic at all.

See how I go with a photo:

'Techie patch' to sew onto you scouts uniform Doc. Well done.

 

[Mani]

Few more pictures of the area from today (13/08/2012)

http://s1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg514/wakeskate/

All photos are labelled, so I won't bother reposting in here.

Wakeskate - brilliant photos - thank you they are very comprehensive.

On photo 24 - going down into the Little Ugly Creek culvert crossing,
I was able to pull my car off the road on the left just after the armco railing
and we had enough room to park there.

The area is just to the right of the sign and the tall straight tree is on the left. It is just a small area that you can pull into.

On page 30 where it shows the flattened area near the Kholo Bridge, there are very deep ruts there now as a couple of people have been bogged.

Also, thank you for your information about the horse bridle path - I had been asking if there were horses agisted on either Bunya or Wirrabarra Roads but that was before I had been to see them. I did not see the bridle path - cheers for bringing it to our attention.

 

[marlywings]

And then the rains came..... (as I keep saying). I think the rains and flooding washed the body into the creek, but there seems to be a lot of folks who assume from that that she was placed IN the creek somewhere. What I'm suggesting is that she wasn't - and that it was only the flood surge that washed her off the bank into the creek.

I really have no idea now where she was placed...all the areas that have been mentioned seem feasible but then I read this report with this forensic consultant more or less saying the body had been placed in water.

May 01, 2012

Now forensic investigators must try to determine what killed her and how - something made much more challenging by the 11 days her body has spent submerged in water.

Dr Bennett, who works for Queensland Police Service as a forensic consultant and was involved in the Daniel Morcombe case, said the investigation would take weeks, possibly months, to conclude and the water temperature would make it more difficult.

"Part of the reason the body's put in the water is to conceal as much trace evidence as possible," he said

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lison-baden-clay/story-e6freoof-1226343152532

 

[DrWatson]

Now that I earned my techie patch for uploading photos, here's another one showing a slightly different perspective, including where you pull off the road. Again, this is from Google Maps Street View from earlier this year, and shows the area BEFORE it got all flattened and boggy.

The arrow points to where I reversed in today - as you can see, it's well off the road, and at night, would be barely visible if at all.