Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

[alioop]

:floorlaugh:

Makara, why are you doing a floor laugh!!

 

[alioop]

Actually alioop, I think Makara mentioned it as well, a page or so back. You're right, there are several people wearing the same gloves.

Ok is this why Makara is doing the floor laugh.

 

[Mystique75]

I don't think so alioop, in fact I've a funny feeling Makara might be picturing all those policemen coming "out of the same box"? Lol .. I just re-read and it kinda made me picture them jumping out of a box. The perils of the typed word lol

 

[Makara]

Mystique good pick on the blue/grey gloves. There are several people wearing the same gloves, including 2 on the bridge and the man in the blue forensic suit with the white boots down in the mud picking at something with a stick. They probably all came out of the same box.

BBM.

I just had a visual of all of the forensics people lining up to get their blue gloves out of the same box before they head off to work.

Don't worry, it's just my warped sense of humour. :blushing:

 

[Mystique75]

Ha! I was close... I guess I must have a really warped sense of humour

 

[wakeskate]

I drove past the bridge (not intentionally) - it's not the bridge IMO. If it was me, I would keep driving until I thought I was alone and could not be seen. There are too many private spots out that way to suddenly find it unbearable enough to risk pulling up on an arterial road.

That is the feeling I get as well.
Mount Crosby Road is just too open.

Yes if you knew exactly what you were doing, you could back in there and by luck nobody would have seen you.
You have to remember that this person just killed someone. If they get caught it's life in prison. I just don't think they would risk it.

I have driven down both Bunya Road and Wirrabara Road twice now, and Wirrabara round just feels right.
I know it's a long way from the bridge, and DrWatson's location makes a lot more sense in terms of the body floating down to the bridge.

What we need to do is next time we have a big down pour is head out to Kholo and Little Ugly creek and get some more photos.

 

[wakeskate]

Not so sure about that, Alioop. She was a long way up the bank, and while the river is certainly tidal up there, I don't think it is quite THAT tidal on a regular tide. Don't forget that those creeks would have been WAY higher than their usual tidal variation during the flood surges, but the levels would have dropped away quite quickly, leaving debris - and bodies - stranded high and dry if snagged on something.

The creek in our paddock which I've mentioned previously can be a metre or more deep over its banks and into the paddock, but can drop to be contained within the banks in 30 minutes after a flood surge comes down from the hills around.

So my thought would be that she was washed into the creek system from the banks, out into Kholo Creek, swirled in the eddy currents around the bridge pylons, and then snagged on something just as the water level receded, leaving her high and dry.

Pure guesswork, though.....

Firstly the body has to be somewhere near the location of the arrow. (below the pylons in the mud)
I should have taken more photos of the area, but here are the reasons why it was.

- There were hundreds of foot prints in the mud down from the pylon.
- They had laid some carpet down the bank further up as the human traffic must have been getting that bad the banks were getting too hard to walk up.
- There were no signs of foot prints or forensic activity above the pylons.

As for the eddies and snag theory, I 100% agree with that.
Take a look at this photo

You will see part of a large uprooted tree that is stuck on the second pylon.

I also believe this photo is the location. All the footprints were focused around it. (yes those are all footprints from police working the area).
The footprints weren't much further along than this.

 

[Makara]

After studying the two images below a lot more closely I noticed that the shadow cast from the bridge is almost identically situated in both pics. Also compare where the vegetation is in both pics. The first attachment is a screen cap I just took from the Channel 7 video and I've noted the bottom of the pylon just visible behind Allison's body. Now compare where that pylon is in the second attachment.

I now have no doubt that the red arrow is indicating Allison's body. The other pics of something further up under the bridge is more than likely QPS as some of you have already mentioned. I apologise for any confusion.

 

[wakeskate]

I just got home, and when I checked in here, I saw that Alioop had posted the link to the Ch 7 clip, so I looked at it several times, including in pause mode and framing back and forth. I think the object Makara pointed out is Allison, and that certainly seems to be the focus of attention of all the people under the bridge. If you look at where each of those people is looking, it is at that object just above the pylons, IMHO. And although I looked numerous times, frame by frame, I didn't see it move.....

Are we all watching the same video :floorlaugh:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

This video shows the body below the first pylon to me.

0:36 - guy is down near the waters edge near the body below the pylon
0:43 - another close up of what has to be the body blurred
0:48 - pylon visble here is the second pylon which ends down well into the water
0:49 - Second pylon is clearly visble. Edge of water is clearly visble. Will give you relation to 0:36. Body is not blurred here but behind the darker green tree.
0:52 - two officers are measuring the distance. Probably for evidence if the body showed signs of being rolled off the edge. Another officer is in a wetsuit (two piece with the bottom half pulled down) standing on the first pylon.
2:40 - body is clearly under the first pylon. If it was above the pylon they would just carry it up. No need to lift it out.
2:42 - again. Clearly below the pylon. You couldn't easily carry a body back up from there, however it would easily be carried out from above the pylon. To get the body down there they would have to have lifted it down there. (see where this theory is falling apart)
2:48 - Body being lifted from under the first pylon. Why move it down there to life it up. It could have easily been lifted or carried from above the pylon if it was there.

 

[alioop]

Thanks Makara for pointing out the base of the pylon and the blurred image. That clears it up for me too. The blurred image is Allison's body at the base of the pylon. I think that the blurred image is actually more under the bridge than it looks.

 

[alioop]

Are we all watching the same video :floorlaugh:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

This video shows the body below the first pylon to me.

0:36 - guy is down near the waters edge near the body below the pylon
0:43 - another close up of what has to be the body blurred
0:48 - pylon visble here is the second pylon which ends down well into the water
0:49 - Second pylon is clearly visble. Edge of water is clearly visble. Will give you relation to 0:36. Body is not blurred here but behind the darker green tree.
0:52 - two officers are measuring the distance. Probably for evidence if the body showed signs of being rolled off the edge. Another officer is in a wetsuit (two piece with the bottom half pulled down) standing on the first pylon.
2:40 - body is clearly under the first pylon. If it was above the pylon they would just carry it up. No need to lift it out.
2:42 - again. Clearly below the pylon. You couldn't easily carry a body back up from there, however it would easily be carried out from above the pylon. To get the body down there they would have to have lifted it down there. (see where this theory is falling apart)
2:48 - Body being lifted from under the first pylon. Why move it down there to life it up. It could have easily been lifted or carried from above the pylon if it was there.

Totally agree with you Wakeskate

 

[Makara]

Thanks wakeskate, IMO you are absolutely correct.

Are we all watching the same video :floorlaugh:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

This video shows the body below the first pylon to me.

0:36 - guy is down near the waters edge near the body below the pylon
0:43 - another close up of what has to be the body blurred
0:48 - pylon visble here is the second pylon which ends down well into the water
0:49 - Second pylon is clearly visble. Edge of water is clearly visble. Will give you relation to 0:36. Body is not blurred here but behind the darker green tree.
0:52 - two officers are measuring the distance. Probably for evidence if the body showed signs of being rolled off the edge. Another officer is in a wetsuit (two piece with the bottom half pulled down) standing on the first pylon.
2:40 - body is clearly under the first pylon. If it was above the pylon they would just carry it up. No need to lift it out.
2:42 - again. Clearly below the pylon. You couldn't easily carry a body back up from there, however it would easily be carried out from above the pylon. To get the body down there they would have to have lifted it down there. (see where this theory is falling apart)
2:48 - Body being lifted from under the first pylon. Why move it down there to life it up. It could have easily been lifted or carried from above the pylon if it was there.

 

[alioop]

Now we just have to convince Doc

 

[Mystique75]

Yes, clears it up for me as well, thanks Makara. You're right, same area but different angle. This makes the most sense to me, that this would be the location of the body considering the flow of water, angle of the turn that creek takes and the surrounding features creating a kind of landing spot. Also wakeskate's photo of footprints fits, but I'm not sure if I'm just making it all fit my idea of how Allison ended up there - washed down from upstream.

Anyway, the photos and insights are appreciated

 

[Makara]

yes, clears it up for me as well, thanks makara. You're right, same area but different angle. This makes the most sense to me, that this would be the location of the body considering the flow of water, angle of the turn that creek takes and the surrounding features creating a kind of landing spot. Also wakeskate's photo of footprints fits, but i'm not sure if i'm just making it all fit my idea of how allison ended up there - washed down from upstream.

Anyway, the photos and insights are appreciated

I'd just like to ram those photos down this bloke's throat! :furious:

 

[DrWatson]

Now we just have to convince Doc

OK, OK - I'm convinced - sort of... :juggle:

I can see all the points that Wakeskate makes, but I'd differ on one of them. I'm not so sure that walking her UP the bank, even from above the pylons, would have been an easy thing to do, especially with the bank being so wet after all that rain. Plus the vegetation that was still there would have made it less than easy. So moving her down to clearer ground, and winching her up from there would make sense.

But I think the consensus is that she was lower down, just below the pylons, so I'll roll with that :laughcry:

And now, I'm fftobed: :seeya:

 

[alioop]

I'd just like to ram those photos down this bloke's throat! :furious:

View attachment 25661

I wouldn't pick him as the same person in those photos if I didn't know.

 

[KG1]

I just had a look again at some channel 7 video, link below and I am sure that at about 51 seconds the blue and black dressed "body" above the pylon base moves slightly. I think it is a policeperson bent over looking at something on the ground. Have a look Makara and see what you think. If it moves then it can't be Allison.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

I looked at this video many times around the time it first appeared. You are quite correct, it is a police person and he does move and he also moved something, which I believe is Allison's body directly beside/behind him. I previously froze this brief part many times and I am sure he is with her body. It was so fleeting, it takes lots of patience to freeze it at just the right time. I am also posting a couple of photos which were posted around that time, which shows her body and the position of her body. She is definitely under the bridge, but in one photo angle, it looks otherwise, but is not so. I am technically challenged when it comes to marking photos, but the original poster has marked her position in photo 2.

 

[KG1]

Thanks Makara. What do others think? I think I see movement just before the video cuts to something else. I think the person is wearing blue and has white gloves on.

He is also wearing white boots.

 

[KG1]

I just got home, and when I checked in here, I saw that Alioop had posted the link to the Ch 7 clip, so I looked at it several times, including in pause mode and framing back and forth. I think the object Makara pointed out is Allison, and that certainly seems to be the focus of attention of all the people under the bridge. If you look at where each of those people is looking, it is at that object just above the pylons, IMHO. And although I looked numerous times, frame by frame, I didn't see it move.....

None of those people seem to be looking BELOW the pylons - they're all looking in the direction of that black and grey object.

The other question as to whether or not a kyaker would see the body there: I think they would see a body, even right up there. The tides were a bit up anyway due to the rainfall - the river and creek levels were somewhat higher than they were when I was there a couple of days ago, for example. And even with the levels the way they were the other day, I still reckon she would have been seen even up there just above the pylons.

Those who have also been there may like to comment.

However, the fact remains that she WAS spotted, and the exact place is probably only relevant in terms of theories as to being placed there or washed there. And we have a quote from the SES person who said that under the bridge had already been checked and was clear previously....

The other factor that comes to mind is that higher up the bank, on that flood surge, there would be much more "regular" vegetation on which to get snagged, compared to the "normal" channel which is basically muddy and slippery. If she was washed down there on the flood, and snagged in some bushes which were temporarily under water, that, to me, seems more feasible than if she'd been lower down, in which case there would have been much more likelihood of being washed out into the main river.

Interesting though, isn't it?

Your last paragraph Doc, is what I think happened, and I posted this possibility many threads back. It has always been my belief that Allison was left much higher up the bank, hidden by the thick vegetation - when the rains came, she was washed further down the bank, likely submerged that weekend, and then exposed when the water subsided. MOO