Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38

[marlywings]

We don't know what's in the financial records of the company that owns the house. MSM ( which Makara has confimed, thanks ) suggests GBC and Allison were directors and that Allison was removed as a director and company secretary following her death. This is usual practice but perhaps for different reasons than this situation. Probably GBC remains as sole director. Legally any personal power of attorney that he has given would not allow the attorney to make decisions or sign documents for the company or him in his capacity as a director. There would have to be a power of attorney by the company itself appointing say OW to sell the house. Wonder if they stuffed up there! Could be an avenue for overturning the sale.

We don't know what interest Allison's family had in the house. Did they lend money to the company to help fund the purchase? If they did then it would usually appear in the financials of the company as loans owing to them. They are then unsecured creditors of the company. Selling the house doesn't change the obligations of the company to its creditors or to its shareholders. We also don't know what other connections this company had to their other companies, they may all be intertwined and moneys may show in the financials as owing between companies. Also if any of the companies are trustees for trusts then that complicates it as well.

Now that Mr Dickie is administrator of Allison's estate, GBC through OW and his lawyers will have to co-operate with him to answer all these questions re the sale of the house as Allison's estate appears to have an interest as shareholder and maybe also creditor. If it has been sold at less than market value then that raises big concerns that will no doubt be addressed. Sounds like a contract has been signed but it probably hasn't settled yet. I expect Mr Dickie's lawyers will be wanted the proceeds of sale if the contract goes through to be frozen, probably in a lawyer's trust account or even paid to court if he has to make an application to the court, pending determination of who is entitled to them.

BBM

Yes the settlement wasn't for another three weeks according to this morning's report....

September 6, 2012 - 8:13AM

‘‘On Tuesday ... I spoke with Mr Zampech by telephone. He confirmed to me that an offer on the property was accepted.

‘‘He mentioned that settlement was in approximately three weeks, but was unable to give me any further information due to client confidentiality.’’

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ents-reveal-20120905-25ee1.html#ixzz25fBOthGq

 

[marlywings]

What I'm not getting is why the need to get that house sold in what seems to be a rush job.

 

[Makara]

We don't know what's in the financial records of the company that owns the house. MSM ( which Makara has confimed, thanks ) suggests GBC and Allison were directors and that Allison was removed as a director and company secretary following her death. This is usual practice but perhaps for different reasons than this situation. Probably GBC remains as sole director. Legally any personal power of attorney that he has given would not allow the attorney to make decisions or sign documents for the company or him in his capacity as a director. There would have to be a power of attorney by the company itself appointing say OW to sell the house. Wonder if they stuffed up there! Could be an avenue for overturning the sale.

We don't know what interest Allison's family had in the house. Did they lend money to the company to help fund the purchase? If they did then it would usually appear in the financials of the company as loans owing to them. They are then unsecured creditors of the company. Selling the house doesn't change the obligations of the company to its creditors or to its shareholders. We also don't know what other connections this company had to their other companies, they may all be intertwined and moneys may show in the financials as owing between companies. Also if any of the companies are trustees for trusts then that complicates it as well.

Now that Mr Dickie is administrator of Allison's estate, GBC through OW and his lawyers will have to co-operate with him to answer all these questions re the sale of the house as Allison's estate appears to have an interest as shareholder and maybe also creditor. If it has been sold at less than market value then that raises big concerns that will no doubt be addressed. Sounds like a contract has been signed but it probably hasn't settled yet. I expect Mr Dickie's lawyers will be wanted the proceeds of sale if the contract goes through to be frozen, probably in a lawyer's trust account or even paid to court if he has to make an application to the court, pending determination of who is entitled to them.

GBC appointed himself as secretary and sole director of the WOTS P/L as of 14 August 2012 but as I mentioned, Allison is still a shareholder along with GBC. I'm reading some documents I just purchased (couldn't help myself and there goes that new pair of shoes I wanted), and there are at least another two companies connected to WOTS P/L. I'm going to do a bit more hunting to see what I can find.

 

[Makara]

What I'm not getting is why the need to get that house sold in what seems to be a rush job.

Plain and simple Marly. MONEY. I'd say the clan are running low on funds and let's face it, they are just plain spiteful anyway.

 

[DrWatson]

DW, I'm not trying to answer for Alioop but this may be of interest and IMO is the $300,000 you refer to. From what I recall reading it was Allison's money that was used to purchase the Gold Coast property. Money she had prior to marrying FW.

Certainly the couple were facing new challenges in 2008 relocating the family real estate firm to more expensive premises in a bid to ramp up the business.
That same year a house they owned at the Gold Coast through their company Wots World of Top Step was listed as having been mortgaged and late last year they took out a $300,000 mortgage through another family company.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nati...#ixzz23fpuR4Uo

Hi Makara - I seem to recall that in addition to THAT $300k, there was another item on that list of "debts" which involved GBC acting as guarantor. The thing that stood out - to me at least - was that this was all added into the "1 million dollars" that he allegedly "owed". My point at that time was that a guarantee on somebody else's loan is not a debt - unless that person defaults.

Maybe the indomitable MarlyWhizz can find the list I'm referring to - I think it emerged at the bail hearing. Maybe it was $300k or even $350k - but it was acting as a guarantor, not really a debt.

And that is the one I was wondering about now that GBC is in the nick, and Allison is deceased. Who is now the guarantor? And who would be liable if the borrower defaults?

Maybe I'm mistaken in that recollection, but I was fairly sure it was a guarantee rather than their own mortgage. Or maybe I'm just plain wrong...

 

[Mani]

There was a change of address lodged on 8 June 2012 from the old Century 21office at Suite 324, 58 High Street Toowong QLD to the new address at 'Toowong Tower' Level 5, 9 Sherwood Road Toowong QLD. His current address is nowhere near as impressive! Someone should lock him in a bloody tower and through away the key! :maddening:

I agree with you and maybe the fire breathing dragons might end up there with him. MOO Secretive, downright sneaky and right under the Dickie's nose. That kind of cunning and conniving is beyond.....IMO. And these people call themselves Christians??? MOO Where are their values and morals? MOO

Dr Watson, forgot - BCs are in Kenmore not Brookfield. No wonder there was all quiet on the Kenmore front - well, every dog has his day and I hope Geoff Dickie has the last laugh. It won't ever replace his beautiful daughter though. All MOO

Where is Greg? He was right all along IMO.

 

[bearbear]

What I'm not getting is why the need to get that house sold in what seems to be a rush job.

maybe all the creditors are threatening him with caveats on his assets so he wants to sell everything off quickly and quietly, hide any pfofit then declare himself bankrupt? it seems he is good at hiding money with assets in different names etc, years and years of shady dealings i would say!

 

[marlywings]

Hi Makara - I seem to recall that in addition to THAT $300k, there was another item on that list of "debts" which involved GBC acting as guarantor. The thing that stood out - to me at least - was that this was all added into the "1 million dollars" that he allegedly "owed". My point at that time was that a guarantee on somebody else's loan is not a debt - unless that person defaults.

Maybe the indomitable MarlyWhizz can find the list I'm referring to - I think it emerged at the bail hearing. Maybe it was $300k or even $350k - but it was acting as a guarantor, not really a debt.

And that is the one I was wondering about now that GBC is in the nick, and Allison is deceased. Who is now the guarantor? And who would be liable if the borrower defaults?

Maybe I'm mistaken in that recollection, but I was fairly sure it was a guarantee rather than their own mortgage. Or maybe I'm just plain wrong...

This may be it??


The police investigation into Mr Baden-Clay's financial situation allegedly revealed he owed more than $1 million to friends, family, associates and financial institutions.

Police allege that $290,000 of the debt was due to be paid back by June 30, however they allege their inquiries "have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to (Ms) McHugh without a large influx of funds from these insurance policies".

Among the debts listed were:

June 27, 2012

•$275,000 owed in "gentlemen's agreements" with three friends.
•$200,000 to to a friend in a contracted agreement due for payment on 30 June, 2012.
•$90,000 to another friend in a contracted agreement due for payment on 30 June, 2012.
•$75,000 to a business associate.
•$15,000 in outstanding franchise fees to Century 21 Australia.
•$45,000 credit card debt.
•$58,000 to his parents. (identified through a financial analysis ordered by police).

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz25fHlGanz

 

[DrWatson]

This may be it??

Thanks for chasing that up Marly. That lot adds up to around the $750k mark, I think. I was sure I'd seen something about being a guarantor too - maybe I'm mistaken? I think there was even a post from somebody on here to the effect that being a guarantor isn't a debt... or I could be way off beam...

But just hypothetically, if he WERE acting as a guarantor for somebody else, what would the position be as per my previous post?

 

[Makara]

Thanks for chasing that up Marly. That lot adds up to around the $750k mark, I think. I was sure I'd seen something about being a guarantor too - maybe I'm mistaken? I think there was even a post from somebody on here to the effect that being a guarantor isn't a debt... or I could be way off beam...

But just hypothetically, if he WERE acting as a guarantor for somebody else, what would the position be as per my previous post?

Doc, I do recall the word guarantor being used in one of the MSM articles but I've just searched through our Media thread and can't find any reference to it in any of the articles. There was this though.

Days before Christmas, Mr Baden-Clay took out a $300,000 loan for one of his companies from two partners who exited the business.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ar...es-legal-counsel/story-e6freuzr-1226344116055

 

[Makara]

Here is is.

When Allison disappeared, the police argued, Baden-Clay was $1 million in debt.

Of that, $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements", $200,000 to a former business partner, $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage, $45,000 on a credit card, $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21, various business loans and police allege $58,000 to his parents, Nigel and Elaine.

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...d-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780

 

[possumheart]

Doc, I do recall the word guarantor being used in one of the MSM articles but I've just searched through our Media thread and can't find any reference to it in any of the articles. There was this though.

Days before Christmas, Mr Baden-Clay took out a $300,000 loan for one of his companies from two partners who exited the business.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ar...es-legal-counsel/story-e6freuzr-1226344116055

http://www.news.com.au/national-old/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780
Of that, $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements", $200,000 to a former business partner, $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage, $45,000 on a credit card, $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21, various business loans and police allege $58,000 to his parents, Nigel and Elaine.

 

[Crime and punishment]

What I'm not getting is why the need to get that house sold in what seems to be a rush job.

Probably before the Dickies realized what they were doing!

 

[Makara]

http://www.news.com.au/national-old/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780
Of that, $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements", $200,000 to a former business partner, $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage, $45,000 on a credit card, $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21, various business loans and police allege $58,000 to his parents, Nigel and Elaine.

Snap Possum.

 

[ellou]

He would still have phone calls to family and special calls to legals.

One would think ,they would be monitered....Ive never been in jail,there is something not right with this.

 

[DrWatson]

Here is is.

When Allison disappeared, the police argued, Baden-Clay was $1 million in debt.

Of that, $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements", $200,000 to a former business partner, $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage, $45,000 on a credit card, $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21, various business loans and police allege $58,000 to his parents, Nigel and Elaine.

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...d-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780

THAT'S the one - thank you Makara and Possum. I KNEW I'd seen it somewhere.

Given that, then, my question remains - what would be the legal staus of that guarantee with GBC in the nick? And more to the point - would Allison's estate be liable for any of it if the borrower defaulted? In other words - is her estate still a guarantor? Or would the borrower need to seek a new guarantor?

Anyone with the knowledge? Alioop?

It is really bugging me (you probably guessed that) - but it could have implications both on Allison's estate, and also for the borrower whoever that was.

 

[possumheart]

Snap Possum.

:slapfight:

The house sale thing reeks of 'it isn't immoral if you don't get caught out' to me. Same as having affairs. Same as disappearing your wife.

 

[possumheart]

THAT'S the one - thank you Makara and Possum. I KNEW I'd seen it somewhere.

Given that, then, my question remains - what would be the legal staus of that guarantee with GBC in the nick? And more to the point - would Allison's estate be liable for any of it if the borrower defaulted? In other words - is her estate still a guarantor? Or would the borrower need to seek a new guarantor?

Anyone with the knowledge? Alioop?

It is really bugging me (you probably guessed that) - but it could have implications both on Allison's estate, and also for the borrower whoever that was.

My radar went off a couple of months ago when I had my will and power of atourney done. The solicitor said that if my executor was an accountant they would be able to finalise my financials for me. At the time I wondered if that was GBC's 'business as usual' and I did comment on what the solicitor had said here.

 

[ellou]

Then when you read Courier Mail report it states...

"On September 4, at approximately 10.10am, I spoke with Mr Zampech by telephone. He confirmed to me that an offer on the property was accepted."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...erard-baden-clay/story-e6freoof-1226465935990

Which was the day prior to Geoff Dickie being given the interim order. Here's hoping this order was able to block the sale from going through.

It's weird,I was thinking exactly the samething.I'm sure I saw on telly,that Mr Dickie,applied too the courts the day before ,all this new news came out.I remember thinking,what on earth has happened now.

 

[alioop]

Given that, then, my question remains - what would be the legal staus of that guarantee with GBC in the nick? And more to the point - would Allison's estate be liable for any of it if the borrower defaulted? In other words - is her estate still a guarantor? Or would the borrower need to seek a new guarantor?

Anyone with the knowledge? Alioop?

It is really bugging me (you probably guessed that) - but it could have implications both on Allison's estate, and also for the borrower whoever that was.

Sorry Doc, missed your question with the fast pace of the posts in the last couple of days.

I understand that the company World Of Top Step P/L took out or provided security for a loan for $335,000 (I don't know who from, maybe a bank) and gave a mortgage over the Paradise Point property as security for that loan. GBC and Allison as directors of the company gave personal guarantees ( probably joint and several) for the loan as is normal practice for loans to companies.

So if the sale of that property goes through, the secured creditor who holds the mortgage would be paid out of the settlement proceeds. Then there will likely be no further issue with the guarantee.

Edit- I will do more checking on this given Makara's input below.