Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[Couldbe]

Hello again, all you amazing people.

It's been a while since I last posted, but I have kept up to date with all your sleuthing. As always, you have continued to impress me with your theories, ideas, expert knowledge and, overall, your endless support for Allison, her girls and her parents. For all of you, here is a big virtual hug from me:

:grouphug:

Lately, I've been thinking quite deeply about Allison, because I recently read her diary entries again. From reading Allison’s diary, and considering the defence’s suicide theory, I feel that this is exactly what GBC was hoping Allison would do; that is, by putting her down and subjecting her to endless emotional abuse, Allison would cave in to her depression and take her own life. I believe this was GBC’s “Plan A”.

However, being the strong woman that she was, Allison did not succumb to GBC’s ploy. This would have frustrated him no end and lead to his “Plan B”.

Apologies in advance for the following, lengthy post. My thoughts were flowing and, as I am terrible with the time-frame side of things (despite reading all your fabulous entries many times), please forgive me for any "issues" you may find with my notes. Reasons I had the following thoughts were due to:

1) Seemingly no evidence of the Captiva being in the vicinity of where Allison's body was found; and
2) Trying to reconcile how OW could support GBC in such a strong and defiant manner (and why EBC seems almost "out of the loop").

Anyway, here goes...

• Allison returns home (circa 7pm), after visiting the hairdresser, to a typical evening at home with GBC and the kids.
• The kids, who are used to witnessing conflict between their parents, sense some tension between Mummy and Daddy, but go to bed as per their usual routine.
• The topic of TM being present at the next day’s conference is brought up. Tension escalates, a verbal row ensues.
• The kids can hear the row from their rooms, but, by now, are so conditioned to their parents fighting, that they don’t get up to check what is happening.
• The verbal stoush dissipates, but extreme tension remains. Allison heads to bed, possibly unsure about attending the conference the following day.
• GBC, mentally writhing in anger, makes his move.
• While physically attacking Allison, by strangulation, Allison fights for her life and leaves a range of scratches on GBC’s face and body.
• Allison is rendered unconscious and GBC, in a fit of panic, calls on NBC for advice.
• NBC suggests dressing Allison in her walking gear, moving her from the house and leaving her in a location away from the house, so as to make it appear that Allison has been randomly attacked while going for a walk.
• NBC offers to help carry Allison and agrees to meet GBC down the road from GBC’s house, to minimise potential witness sightings, especially by neighbours who may have heard Allison’s screams.
• While dressing Allison, GBC comes to realise that Allison is no longer breathing. After a rough, but failed, attempt at resuscitating Allison, GBC is filled with immense distress and panic, so he makes another call to NBC.
• NBC advises that they must still go ahead with their original plan.
• EBC and OW are awake, at this point, concerned about the late night calls. NBC tells them a lie, along the lines of, “Allison and GBC have had a big fight. I’m going over there, to settle things down,”
• The kids are sound asleep, so GBC leaves them at home, alone, and proceeds to an agreed meeting point, to pick up NBC. Allison’s body has been placed in the rear of the Holden Captiva. The neighbour’s dog barked incessantly, during the time Allison’s body was moved to the car.
• Upon meeting NBC, Allison’s body is moved from the Captiva and into the boot of NBC’s car. Towels and plastic sheeting, belonging to NBC, are used to line NBC’s boot. Allison’s body is then dumped at the location where it was eventually found – Kholo Creek.
• On the way back, NBC is dropped off at a bus stop, while GBC finds some industrial bins into which he can dispose of incriminating evidence - blood-stained towels, plastic sheeting etc, from NBC’s boot.
• The decision to leave NBC at the bus stop was so that NBC could monitor the Holden Captiva, which was parked nearby, plus potential witnesses to his BWANA vehicle, being driven by GBC.
• GBC quickly returns to NBC, the two men return to driving their own cars and travel back to GBC’s house.
• Clean up of both vehicles commences.
• NBC returns home. GBC calls NBC, via Facetime, to ask for advice about what steps to take in the morning. NBC tells GBC that he will go back to GBC’s house in the morning, to support him.
• GBC finishes cleaning the Captiva. He places his phone on the charger, but spends the rest of the early hours of the morning pacing the bedroom, thinking of alternative “stories” for the night’s events.
• NBC and OW arrive about five hours later, with NBC telling OW that Allison must have stormed off in anger, after fighting with GBC.
• OW, still none the wiser about the situation, agrees to take the kids to school. Just prior to this, GBC tells OW one of his various versions of the route that Allison would have taken, during her walk. He also tells OW about what he has explained to the kids.
• There is an agreement between GBC, NBC and OW that GBC and Allison’s fight should not be brought up as a reason for Allison leaving the house, because of the potential shame it could bring to GBC’s social standing. Instead, the story would centre around Allison talking one of her “usual” walks.
• GBC eventually calls the police, to state that his wife is missing.


All in MOO.

... so could be! Just don't understand how OW thinks Allison ended up under the bridge at Kholo...must just blindly assume that she got herself out there somehow.

 

[marlywings]

Wasn't there a rumour, or perhaps something said by an insider, way back in the beginning about the car being cleaned by NBC early in the morning? Somewhere back in my vague memory I seem to recall something being said about this. :waitasec:

Yes SA, I thought I heard that too - I am hopeless at searching but will give it a go - might master it yet but that is why I forever have NBC stuck in my mind as the 'Cleaner' - cause I heard somewhere he was cleaining and vacuuming at GBC's place when the qps arrived. Just pure pie in the sky stuff and nothing that I can base this on yet..... but will look stay tuned.

Let me try & iron this one out for you all. Back in earlier threads there was speculation about whether or not GBC cleaned the cars prior to arrival of police/& or was cleaning the cars when police arrived. None of this was fact & none of it has been reported in MSM at all...it was just speculation.

However, one of our Verified Insiders, "Itsthevibe" posted the following about the vacuum cleaner bag. We don't know if this is true or not as it's not been mentioned in MSM or affadavits. So we still, even though she's a Verified Insider, have to take it with the old proverbial grain of salt.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8026080&postcount=403"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 #19[/ame]

 

[marlywings]

The problem with rumours is that they mess up the tidy slate of facts as reported by MSM & via the court reports/affadavits. There were hundreds of rumours...probably still are rumours doing the rounds just as there's still rumours circulating about poor old Elvis.

Until we hear it in MSM or court reports or you can supply a MSM link to verify a rumour they're not allowed.

 

[Straitfan]

Waiting on trial updates and praying for Allison and her loved ones...Especially those sweet little girls...my heart aches for them...

 

[Liadan]

The problem with rumours is that they mess up the tidy slate of facts as reported by MSM & via the court reports/affadavits. There were hundreds of rumours...probably still are rumours doing the rounds just as there's still rumours circulating about poor old Elvis.

Until we hear it in MSM or court reports or you can supply a MSM link to verify a rumour they're not allowed.

Wow your are indeed masterful at pulling those facts out of the woodwork!! Thanks very much for the latitude - I know WS is adverse to discussion of rumours.

Now thinking about the facetime call and how it supposedly didn't happen for the purposes of evidence of GBC talking to NBC. Is it as simple as a 'handbag' or 'pocket' call to NBC - if so then maybe the content can't be considered important but it does prove that GBC was up and about.

 

[Makara]

If he just stopped on the bitumen on the bridge, popped her over the edge, and then drove off, there wouldn't be any evidence on the car or his shoes. That would require an assumption that he drove OFF the road into the scrub near the bridge, then walked in the grass, dirt, etc. The lack of evidence on the car wheel arches or his shoes would seem to suggest that he either wasn't there, or he just stopped on the bitumen for the 30 seconds it would have taken.

After again looking at the aerial shots of when Allison's body was found, I tend to agree with you Doc. My initial thinking early on was that Allison's body was either washed down the creek or was carried down the bank to where it was found. I always thought that she was further away from the bridge. The aerial videos taken from the helicopters are a little deceiving but looking at the pics below, they clearly show how close Allison's body was to the bridge. With the new information that has come to light recently, I now believe that Allison's body was pushed over the bridge. This negated the necessity of having to drive off road, to clamber down a slippery riverbank while dragging a body and in the process, getting both himself and the car covered in mud and vegatation. Very cold and very callous! :furious:

MOO.

The blurred object in the top right of the pic is Allison's body.

 

[BreakingNews]

The problem with rumours is that they mess up the tidy slate of facts as reported by MSM & via the court reports/affadavits. There were hundreds of rumours...probably still are rumours doing the rounds just as there's still rumours circulating about poor old Elvis.

Until we hear it in MSM or court reports or you can supply a MSM link to verify a rumour they're not allowed.

It always amuses me that MSM is not considered rumour. They mostly get things right, but sometimes the information is more rumour than rumour.

 

[marlywings]

Thanks for reposting those photos Makara. Here's a couple more which show police photographers with tripod/cameras set up on the side of the bridge. Forensic photographer is looking directly down over the side. When the very first photos of the bridge were posted my immediate thought was that Allison had been dropped over the side. But then came all the reports about scout camp & flooding rain etc which did make it seem a distinct possibility that she'd been dumped somewhere upstream.

 

[alioop]

Thanks for reposting those photos makara. We have a lot more info now since we first looked at those photos which are heartbreaking. Throwing Allisons body off the bridge would have been quick, 5 mins maybe and would have taken significantly less time than driving off the road in the side area and rolling her down the embankment or carrying her down. If the captiva and the person/s in it stayed on the road then minimal if no evidence of dirt, vegetation etc would be on them. We know from the second bail hearing that no vegetation was found under the captiva wheel arches. If the captiva did not leave the road then no need for it to be washed on the exterior, maybe just a clean up of the inside, though if this did occur they missed the blood smear and the hair stuck in it.

Her chipped tooth could have been caused by the rails on the bridge though there are plenty of ways that could have occurred in the transport of her body or prior to death if there was a fight.

Perhaps the bridge was chosen as a location to support a suicide and to find her body within a few days. Or just seemed like a good idea and an easy disposal in a panic situation .

How Allison's body was not washed away in those heavy rains still troubles me but who am I to argue with an expert hydrologist! I so want to read that report! Thank goodness it wasn't.

 

[Liadan]

Thanks for reposting those photos makara. We have a lot more info now since we first looked at those photos which are heartbreaking. Throwing Allisons body off the bridge would have been quick, 5 mins maybe and would have taken significantly less time than driving off the road in the side area and rolling her down the embankment or carrying her down. If the captiva and the person/s in it stayed on the road then minimal if no evidence of dirt, vegetation etc would be on them. We know from the second bail hearing that no vegetation was found under the captiva wheel arches. If the captiva did not leave the road then no need for it to be washed on the exterior, maybe just a clean up of the inside, though if this did occur they missed the blood smear and the hair stuck in it.

Her chipped tooth could have been caused by the rails on the bridge though there are plenty of ways that could have occurred in the transport of her body or prior to death if there was a fight.

Perhaps the bridge was chosen as a location to support a suicide and to find her body within a few days. Or just seemed like a good idea and an easy disposal in a panic situation .

How Allison's body was not washed away in those heavy rains still troubles me but who am I to argue with an expert hydrologist! I so want to read that report! Thank goodness it wasn't.

What went through their mind in choosing that bridge? How many other places along the way would they have considered? I think they were running out of options. And I do say they cause I think it was a two man job.

I think it would require two people to lift say 70kg over that edge tho? Just in terms of expediting the dump and getting the hell outta there.


It does seem is incredibly difficult to manage a floppy sleeping 7 year old child let alone an adult.

 

[Couldbe]

Thanks for reposting those photos makara. We have a lot more info now since we first looked at those photos which are heartbreaking. Throwing Allisons body off the bridge would have been quick, 5 mins maybe and would have taken significantly less time than driving off the road in the side area and rolling her down the embankment or carrying her down. If the captiva and the person/s in it stayed on the road then minimal if no evidence of dirt, vegetation etc would be on them. We know from the second bail hearing that no vegetation was found under the captiva wheel arches. If the captiva did not leave the road then no need for it to be washed on the exterior, maybe just a clean up of the inside, though if this did occur they missed the blood smear and the hair stuck in it.

Her chipped tooth could have been caused by the rails on the bridge though there are plenty of ways that could have occurred in the transport of her body or prior to death if there was a fight.

Perhaps the bridge was chosen as a location to support a suicide and to find her body within a few days. Or just seemed like a good idea and an easy disposal in a panic situation .

How Allison's body was not washed away in those heavy rains still troubles me but who am I to argue with an expert hydrologist! I so want to read that report! Thank goodness it wasn't.

Does make you wonder, if Allison was dumped on the night in question, how she would still be in the same position where she would have landed (when quickly pushed over the bridge rail), given the following information:
Following link refers:http://www.news.com.au/national-old...or-killer-begins/story-e6frfkvr-1226343136055
Extract:..."Residents of nearby Wirrabara Rd said there was a torrent on Saturday, when one rain gauge recorded more than 100mm, dragging debris downstream to the Brisbane River, near where Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found under a bridge yesterday."
...."Mr Lightbody said there was a significant distance between where the body was found and the camp sites.
However, it is thought that torrential rain over the weekend could have moved the body downstream, along with other debris, meaning the body could have been dumped well away from where it was discovered yesterday."

 

[alioop]

It would be easier and quicker with 2 people for sure Liadan, but one man could have still done it especially if he pulled the car up on the bridge , opened the hatch at the back of the captiva and pulled her out and straight over the bridge. Not much carrying needed at the bridge, more carrying at the house to get her to the captiva.

 

[Snails]

Let me know if this isn't the post & I'll have another look...

Thread #39 - post #563

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #39

Thank you Marly and Ali - that has explained it for me.

 

[Saxons]

His story about Allison going for a walk just doesn't add up (so much of what he's said doesn't add up) He says he last saw Allison watching the footy show when he went to bed, so how does he know Allison went for a walk that night..he then says Allison went for a walk this morning, how does he know Allison went for a walk if he was asleep. Neither time did he see Allison actually leave the house to go walking and yet he knew what Allison was wearing...he lives in a cloud of lies.
MOO

Agreed! Although there was some discussion about this very point in previous threads. Some members said that they went to bed in their walking clothes for an early start the next morning (Yes I know -I wouldnt do it either) and maybe thats how he was able to describe what he she was wearing.

Bit far fetched for my liking, but I guess all angles have to be considered!

 

[CouchCop]

When I walk, and I do so 3-4 times a week, it is always for cardiovascular benefit which means breaking a sweat. There is no way I could believe that a woman who paid attention to her looks, had her hair done, probably at significant expense in a struggling budget situation would risk putting the polished hair-do at risk by wanting to create a sweat. The whole "walk theory" whether it be a night or morning walk just can't be considered feasible.

 

[Couldbe]

When I walk, and I do so 3-4 times a week, it is always for cardiovascular benefit which means breaking a sweat. There is no way I could believe that a woman who paid attention to her looks, had her hair done, probably at significant expense in a struggling budget situation would risk putting the polished hair-do at risk by wanting to create a sweat. The whole "walk theory" whether it be a night or morning walk just can't be considered feasible.

... valid points. I think that we have to remember that he seemed to be claiming that he had 'no idea' what had happened, since he was in bed asleep from about 10 pm to 6.15 am, but as per link below, he could only 'assume' what had happened.

"He said when he woke at 6.15am on April 20, Mrs Baden-Clay was not in the house but he didn't think that was unusual and assumed she was taking her normal morning walk."
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz2IktYQJ7M

..... plenty of evidence to substantiate that he would have liked her to just 'go take a walk'.

 

[BreakingNews]

It would be easier and quicker with 2 people for sure Liadan, but one man could have still done it especially if he pulled the car up on the bridge , opened the hatch at the back of the captiva and pulled her out and straight over the bridge. Not much carrying needed at the bridge, more carrying at the house to get her to the captiva.

Liadan & Alioop, people can achieve amazing things when there adrenalin is bubbling over.
:moo:

 

[Judicious]

wouldn't Allison have broken bones if thrown/pushed over the bridge ?

 

[Couldbe]

I agree with all of this but I kind of struggle with the shower curtain idea. Was this confirmed? Going to the effort of unclipping the curtain from the shower rail to wrap her in it? Wouldnt they have just used an blanket or towel? Didnt someone post photos of the bathroom from the real estate listing - was the shower curtain missing?

Trying to imagine them redressing Allison but I guess that they would have had to if she was in pyjamas/nightie etc. Bit hard to pull off the "murdered whilst out walking" theory if she was in sleepwear.

I get that NBC might have been keeping a lookout at the roundabout at Kenmore while GBC is disposing of the shower curtain in a dumpster behind the supermarket area, but if NBC was in the second car...why would he get out of it to go and sit in a bus stop? Wouldnt he just sit and wait in his car and watch from there? And what exactly was he watching for -police car?

I reckon he would have stood out like the proverbial and attracted more attention from the boys in blue by sitting in a bus stop at that hour of the night!

Good sleuthing though! And this SOO frustrating trying to make sense of the BC's actions that night.:banghead:

.... just say that he may have wanted to 'stand out like the proverbial' if he was in fact out there to meet someone else who was to arrive ..... to be an accomplice in this bizarre murder scene.

 

[LadyBird1]

that's what amazes me with him..he didn't see Allison leave the house and yet he can describe what Allison was wearing. If I remember rightly Allison was also wearing a pair of white joggers, I wonder if he realizes that when someone else ties your shoe laces they are tied in a different direction than if the person themselves tie them, maybe they were slip ons.
MOO

Regarding inconsistencies:
The bedroom arrangements:
G told TMcH
"Gerard told me that he did not love Allison and they had not slept together for many years. Gerard told me that he slept most nights on the couch in the living room,"
G told police:
Now this night Gerard Baden-Clay before now has said he went to bed, his wife perhaps went for a walk and when he woke up the next morning she was gone and that is when he reported her missing.

The Depression:
G told TMcH
Allison had severe bouts of depression, but also did not express admiration or a depth of feeling towards his wife. He also raised fears his wife would take her life if he left her.

G told reporter:
No, Allison didn't suffer depression.