Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[bearbear]

Doidy - if we're assuming that the deeds happened in the middle of the night or the small hours of the morning, then there would have been a very high chance that there would be NO traffic. And at night, because as you point out, that stretch of road is straight, approaching traffic would have been seen and heard long before it got anywhere near.

It would take approximately a minute or a minute and a half to stop, jump out, open the tailgate, drag a body out and roll it over the side of the bridge, close the tailgate, and away, I reckon. Any marks left on the side of the road or edge of the bridge would have been well and truly washed away by all that rain just before the body was found.

The thing that puzzles me though is how she came to be UNDER the bridge, not beside it. Especially if the experts have said that she was NOT washed to her final resting place even on that flood tide - she was ABOVE the water level. Unless a bit of rolling or bouncing put her more under the bridge than straight down beside it...

this is horrible to think of but could allison have been still just alive and crawled up the bank to her resting place?

 

[bearbear]

Which goes back to the question I posed awhile back ... did Toni scratch him?

or were the cuts from him scoping out under kholo bridge looking for a possible dumping spot?

 

[Couldbe]

this is horrible to think of but could allison have been still just alive and crawled up the bank to her resting place?

.... yes, horrible to visualize but is a possibility.....but one would think that as the perpetrator, he would have made sure that she wouldn't live to give evidence about who had committed the crime. However in his haste, he may have misjudged.

 

[Thinking]

Chief, here is another charge of interfering with a corpse currently before the QLD Courts:
http://www.couriermail.com.au Kate Kyriacou From: The Courier-Mail, February 07, 2013 10:52AM
ACCUSED killer Brett Cowan has been committed to stand trial for the murder of Daniel Morcombe. He is facing charges of murder, child stealing, deprivation of liberty, indecent treatment of a child and interfering with a corpse.

Thanks Fuskier. I also believe that the charge of interference with a corpse was the act of taking Allison's body from her home to Anstead. However for the sake of interest, in the case you are referring to (Morcombe), my understanding from msm is that Cowan confessed to an undercover officer that he did actually move the body from where he first placed it, which is interesting in that I wonder if it relates to that particular charge.

 

[privato]

Just a query: It is alleged that GBC did a property inspection that Thursday in the area of Kholo Bridge. Who else attended this property inspection with him? It is alleged he appeared at the children's race day that same afternoon with scratches and red eyes and a cut on his hand. So this was after the property inspection in which he claims he cut is hand changing a lightbulb? Speculating, if there was DV in one relationship, what is the liklihood of DV in another relationship?

No, the cross country races at the school were on the Thursday MORNING. I'm reasonably certain that OW was also there.

 

[DrWatson]

this is horrible to think of but could allison have been still just alive and crawled up the bank to her resting place?

No. The charges say that Allison was killed at Brookfield, and the "interfering" charge would simply refer to moving her body to Kholo Creek.

There would be good reasons that the police have made those specific charges, IMHO.

 

[Thinking]

Doc, GBC did a property inspection in the area that day didn't he? Remember the story about the cut in his hand when he was changing a lightbulb. The location of that property is very close to Kholo Creek bridge.

That would instigate the 'intellect' rule: Last information in the brain is the first information out of the brain...
He'd crossed a bridge, "Oh I remember, that'll do" and off he went. IMO GBC is a 'reactive' personality type. We know that from his replies to the media: He asks a question in response to a question being asked of him in order to avoid answering the initial question..
From my knowledge base, I suggest that this man operates on cunning rather than reasoning.

Thanks MM, that is a very interesting point. I don't know that we know for sure if GBC did an inspection in the area that very Thursday, do we? However, if this is true, then there should have be evidence of soil, plant extracts etc from the Kholo area on his car wheels etc when the police confiscated it. If there was no such evidence (and he had in fact done that inspection that day), then clearly the car had been cleaned in the intervening period, IMO.

 

[Amee]

Doc, GBC did a property inspection in the area that day didn't he? Remember the story about the cut in his hand when he was changing a lightbulb. The location of that property is very close to Kholo Creek bridge.

That would instigate the 'intellect' rule: Last information in the brain is the first information out of the brain...
He'd crossed a bridge, "Oh I remember, that'll do" and off he went. IMO GBC is a 'reactive' personality type. We know that from his replies to the media: He asks a question in response to a question being asked of him in order to avoid answering the initial question..
From my knowledge base, I suggest that this man operates on cunning rather than reasoning.

Yes and from memory a female was with him at the property and said no lightbulb was changed....:moo:

 

[Amee]

"That is consistent [with the Crown's theory] with being moved from the house after death and then being placed in the area near Kholo Creek...it flies in the face if the suicide theory.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...denied-bail-20121214-2beo5.html#ixzz2LamUzQ5Z

"placed in the area near Kholo Creek" I read this as she was placed under the bridge not thrown over. But thats just me. IMO

 

[alioop]

Alioop I've read that some have access to statements, autopsy etc about this case, how are these accessible to the general public? Can the public just purchase such documents from the court? Im really surprised as this person is not a part of the hearing.

Here is a link to the online Supreme Court file for the second bail application which lists the documents filed

http://apps.courts.qld.gov.au/esear...ocation=BRISB&Court=SUPRE&Filenumber=11307/12

Doc 17 on that list filed by the police would be one to order as it will have most of the prosecution's evidence on which they seek to oppose bail. All these docs are publicly available and can be ordered by emailing the below search counter. You need to state the matter number, Baden-Clay and the date of the hearing before Judge Applegarth and ask for a price for the docs you wish to obtain. They will email you back and you can then call and pay over the phone with a credit card and they will post them out to you.

SDC.SearchandCopyCounter@justice.qld.gov.au

 

[Makara]

It's not well-used in the middle of the night. Especially around 1am - remember the phone was put back on charge around 1:48am.

And we have to accept the fact that she WAS found there, under the left edge of the bridge as approached from the Brisbane/Anstead end. So the only way she could have been put there was over the edge of the bridge. There is nowhere for a car to pull off the road on that side except for some way back at the start of the Armco barrier. Wouldn't be reasonable to imagine somebody carrying or dragging a body all that way to the creek bank. And it would appear NOT to have been the small parking area on the other side, now that we're NOT thinking she was washed down there. Why take her down the bank and under the bridge to the other side of the bridge? You may recall all the discussions we had about being washed down from Little Ugly Creek or Kholo Creek in that flooding. But she didn't - she was placed where she was found. And the only way I can see that it could have happened was by being rolled or dropped over the edge of the bridge on the left heading away from Anstead towards Mt Crosby - outbound.

We know that she was ABOVE the high water mark - even in that flood - and we know from the autopsy that she was placed in the position she was found sometime "soon after death", and had remained there ever since.

So I can't think of any other way she could have got there... apart from stopping the car on the bridge, hauling her out of the back, and rolling her over the edge.

I agree Doc. Attached are photos taken on the day Allison's body was found. We now know that she was placed where she was found and not washed down from further upstream. Note where the photographer is standing in the first attachment. He is standing at the very end (or beginning) of the bridge with the camera pointed directly down to where Allison was found. This photo was obviously taken with a zoom lens if you compare it to the other two attached pics of the bridge.

The second pic gives a better perspective of where the photographer was standing and is basically where the crouching guy can be seen.

In the third pic, once again there are two guys looking over the side in almost the same spot as the photographer and the crouching guy were in the previous pics. This pic looks to be taken when the stretcher was being raised up judging by the group on the right of the picture who look to be hauling on the rope or cable. In all three photos, the concentration seems to be at the very beginning of the bridge where Allison's body was found as can be seen in the fourth attachment, the blurred image being Allison's body.

Looking at the bridge approach pics again there seems to be a small area on the left hand side (where the Police car is parked in the second pic) with just enough room to park a car but not entirely off the road. I don't think it would have been too difficult for Allison's body to be removed from the car and either dragged or carried to the very end and then pushed over the side. She rolled down somewhat and came to rest. It's reported that the bridge is approximately 14m high above the water. Is this measurement taken from the middle of the bridge? If so, each approach to the bridge would be somewhat lower than 14m.

MOO.

 

[alioop]

Thanks Makara, it would be good to know exactly how far under the left side of the bridge she was found, could it have been just been a meter or so, we really don't know.

 

[Makara]

Thanks Makara, it would be good to know exactly how far under the left side of the bridge she was found, could it have been just been a meter or so, we really don't know.

Ali, IMO Allison's body wasn't completely under the bridge. You can see in the pic of her blurred body that she is visible from the bridge. Having said that, those pics are screencaps taken from a video, shot from a helicopter and I do find some of them misleading.

Attached is a photo taken from ground level under the bridge when the area was being cleared after Allison was found. The tide was high when this photo was taken. Allison's body was found further down the bank in front of the pylon. IMO this photo gives a better perspective of how high the bridge is from the ground. Not that high IMO. Looking at this again, Allison would have to have been dragged to where she was found or she was thrown over the bridge rail. So that puts paid to my theory of her being pushed over the embankment. :banghead:

It was reported that GBC had bruising on his upper torso. Could this have been caused by him leaning against the bridge rail while lifting and heaving Allison over the bridge? MOO.

 

[Makara]

Doc, GBC did a property inspection in the area that day didn't he? Remember the story about the cut in his hand when he was changing a lightbulb. The location of that property is very close to Kholo Creek bridge.

That would instigate the 'intellect' rule: Last information in the brain is the first information out of the brain...
He'd crossed a bridge, "Oh I remember, that'll do" and off he went. IMO GBC is a 'reactive' personality type. We know that from his replies to the media: He asks a question in response to a question being asked of him in order to avoid answering the initial question..
From my knowledge base, I suggest that this man operates on cunning rather than reasoning.

MM, you are spot on IMO.

Thanks MM, that is a very interesting point. I don't know that we know for sure if GBC did an inspection in the area that very Thursday, do we? However, if this is true, then there should have be evidence of soil, plant extracts etc from the Kholo area on his car wheels etc when the police confiscated it. If there was no such evidence (and he had in fact done that inspection that day), then clearly the car had been cleaned in the intervening period, IMO.

Very good thinking Thinking. :rocker:

 

[Makara]

This was not just reported by the media AAAA, it was tendered in court by Danny Boyle. See quote below

4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.

He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.

"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.

BBM.

So if Allison was not thrown from the bridge or pushed from the embankment, the only other scenario that I can think of would be that she was placed where she was found. In other words GBC physically dragged her down the embankment. Did he work alone?

 

[Makara]

Yes, I've been counting months and now weeks ... very intrigued!

So good to see you back with us CC.

 

[LadyBird1]

Doc, GBC did a property inspection in the area that day didn't he? Remember the story about the cut in his hand when he was changing a lightbulb. The location of that property is very close to Kholo Creek bridge.

That would instigate the 'intellect' rule: Last information in the brain is the first information out of the brain...
He'd crossed a bridge, "Oh I remember, that'll do" and off he went. IMO GBC is a 'reactive' personality type. We know that from his replies to the media: He asks a question in response to a question being asked of him in order to avoid answering the initial question..
From my knowledge base, I suggest that this man operates on cunning rather than reasoning.

MM That is a very astute and important observation regarding answering a question with a question. That is also taught behavior.
Hope others can see through this "clever" guise. And see what he is doing.

 

[Amee]

BBM.

So if Allison was not thrown from the bridge or pushed from the embankment, the only other scenario that I can think of would be that she was placed where she was found. In other words GBC physically dragged her down the embankment. Did he work alone?

Yes and No IMO
I have always thought Allison was placed where she was found. I also believe GBC had help doing it.
GBC wanted her found ,but not too early making it harder for forensics. Otherwise wouldnt there be places to hide her so she wasnt found.:moo:

 

[LadyBird1]

BBM.

So if Allison was not thrown from the bridge or pushed from the embankment, the only other scenario that I can think of would be that she was placed where she was found. In other words GBC physically dragged her down the embankment. Did he work alone?

Apologize if I am being pedantic with words, but;
Being thrown implies a degree of thrust. Eg: You throw the ball, how far can you throw it.
Being placed implies deliberately put right there. Eg:The ball is placed right there from your hand to the place.
Being dropped implies a dumping. Eg: You drop the ball, meaning you exert no thrust. No effort. A straight out vertical drop. (Might move a bit after landing depending what it hits)
That's just my interpretation. (And I have noticed that QPS have been ultra particularly careful with their words.)

 

[Makara]

Yes and No IMO
I have always thought Allison was placed where she was found. I also believe GBC had help doing it.
GBC wanted her found ,but not too early making it harder for forensics. Otherwise wouldnt there be places to hide her so she wasnt found.:moo:

Yes Amee, I agree that GBC wanted Allison found to collect the insurance. The burning question though is how did Allison's body come to be where it was found? The thought of GBC actually dragging Allison down the embankment has been discussed here at length. Some agree that this was the case and others are of the opinion that the embankment was too steep, slippery, overgrown etc. for him to do this but IMO it's shaping up to be exactly what happened.

To take this a step further, how would GBC negotiate a steep, overgrown embankment in the dark while carrying or dragging a dead body? On Thursday night, 19 April 2012, it was a waning moon, that didn't rise until 4:08am (see attachment), so it would have been extremely dark at Kholo Creek Bridge. To be able to negotiate the descent down the embankment GBC would have needed a torch or some type of lighting that could be turned off at the sound of approaching traffic. If he had a torch, how did he carry it? In his mouth? IMO he had help in 'placing' Allison's body where it was found, even if it was just someone holding a torch for him. Perhaps even standing on the bridge and shining the torch down for him. Then again, he may have worn a miner's type of head lamp. Wonder if the Police found any of those in the shed at Skull Manor?

MOO.