Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[Makara]

Apologize if I am being pedantic with words, but;
Being thrown implies a degree of thrust. Eg: You throw the ball, how far can you throw it.
Being placed implies deliberately put right there. Eg:The ball is placed right there from your hand to the place.
Being dropped implies a dumping. Eg: You drop the ball, meaning you exert no thrust. No effort. A straight out vertical drop. (Might move a bit after landing depending what it hits)
That's just my interpretation. (And I have noticed that QPS have been ultra particularly careful with their words.)

No apologies needed LadyBird and you are spot on with your interpretation of the words thrown, placed and dropped. It was stated that Allison's body was placed, not thrown or dropped. She was placed. To quote you

Being placed implies deliberately put right there. Eg:The ball is placed right there from your hand to the place.

So IMO, the forensic evidence must show that Allison was deliberately put right where she was found. She was placed from GBC's hands to the place where she was found.

MOO.

 

[marlywings]

I'm thinking Allison was carried down because of the wording "placed in the area"...but not only because of that. As I said last night, if she'd rolled all the way down after being dropped over the side of the bridge, I would have thought there'd be a whole lot more than just the two plant species found in her hair or on her clothing.

That was such thick vegetation, there would have to be quite a variety of plants all through there. And I can't see how her body, if it had rolled, came to be in the position it was when found....lengthways along the creek.

For her to have been carried down, I'd imagine at least two people would have been involved. Perhaps there was even three,...one on the bridge holding the torch while the others carried her down.

Just over two weeks to go...cannot come quick enough!!!

 

[LadyBird1]

Yes Amee, I agree that GBC wanted Allison found to collect the insurance. The burning question though is how did Allison's body come to be where it was found? The thought of GBC actually dragging Allison down the embankment has been discussed here at length. Some agree that this was the case and others are of the opinion that the embankment was too steep, slippery, overgrown etc. for him to do this but IMO it's shaping up to be exactly what happened.

To take this a step further, how would GBC negotiate a steep, overgrown embankment in the dark while carrying or dragging a dead body? On Thursday night, 19 April 2012, it was a waning moon, that didn't rise until 4:08am (see attachment), so it would have been extremely dark at Kholo Creek Bridge. To be able to negotiate the descent down the embankment GBC would have needed a torch or some type of lighting that could be turned off at the sound of approaching traffic. If he had a torch, how did he carry it? In his mouth? IMO he had help in 'placing' Allison's body where it was found, even if it was just someone holding a torch for him. Perhaps even standing on the bridge and shining the torch down for him. Then again, he may have worn a miner's type of head lamp. Wonder if the Police found any of those in the shed at Skull Manor?

MOO.

View attachment 30066

Night vision glasses. They are Army equipment.

 

[Amee]

Yes Amee, I agree that GBC wanted Allison found to collect the insurance. The burning question though is how did Allison's body come to be where it was found? The thought of GBC actually dragging Allison down the embankment has been discussed here at length. Some agree that this was the case and others are of the opinion that the embankment was too steep, slippery, overgrown etc. for him to do this but IMO it's shaping up to be exactly what happened.

To take this a step further, how would GBC negotiate a steep, overgrown embankment in the dark while carrying or dragging a dead body? On Thursday night, 19 April 2012, it was a waning moon, that didn't rise until 4:08am (see attachment), so it would have been extremely dark at Kholo Creek Bridge. To be able to negotiate the descent down the embankment GBC would have needed a torch or some type of lighting that could be turned off at the sound of approaching traffic. If he had a torch, how did he carry it? In his mouth? IMO he had help in 'placing' Allison's body where it was found, even if it was just someone holding a torch for him. Perhaps even standing on the bridge and shining the torch down for him. Then again, he may have worn a miner's type of head lamp. Wonder if the Police found any of those in the shed at Skull Manor?

MOO.

View attachment 30066

IMO He/they just carried her down. Yes it has been discussed at length and I was hesitant about saying anything again as it feels like groundhog day.
Bring on March I say

 

[LadyBird1]

I'm thinking Allison was carried down because of the wording "placed in the area"...but not only because of that. As I said last night, if she'd rolled all the way down after being dropped over the side of the bridge, I would have thought there'd be a whole lot more than just the two plant species found in her hair or on her clothing.

That was such thick vegetation, there would have to be quite a variety of plants all through there. And I can't see how her body, if it had rolled, came to be in the position it was when found....lengthways along the creek.

For her to have been carried down, I'd imagine at least two people would have been involved. Perhaps there was even three,...one on the bridge holding the torch while the others carried her down.

Just over two weeks to go...cannot come quick enough!!!

How to move a person who is unable to move at all. Better ask the Doc! Hospitals face this problem daily.
Place body on a sheet, (hospitals use slides) and drag the sheet, with body upon same. Reasonably easy. I could do it alone but would leave skid marks. That reduces the difficulties with the body only, and results in no damage to body. The slide marks may be alleviated if two people were carrying the bundle. (Dispose of sheet later)
If I was a good scout or tracker, I would have my shoes wrapped in something like cloth to avoid any boot sole tracks being left behind, and also avoid evidence being left on the boots.

 

[Makara]

Night vision glasses. They are Army equipment.

Good thinking LadyBird. That would alleviate the need to carry a torch etc. So now I'm curious to know if night vision glasses were found at either of the BC's houses. :what: They would not be something that would be thrown away IMO. Unlike GBC's clothing, shoes etc. that he would've disposed of very soon after placing Allison under the bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if what he was wearing that night ended up back at Skull Manor and later were either wittingly or unwittingly laundered by EBC. His shoes were probably thrown in the bin and are long gone.

MOO.

 

[Amee]

Crime scene tape cordoned off one of the gates off Bunya Rd to the nearby Tyamolum Scout Grounds as well as a segment of bushland on Wirrabara Rd near to Kholo Creek, where Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found under a Mt Crosby Rd bridge.
It is understood the bushland nearby has previously been used by people playing games including laser skirmish on weekends but was otherwise relatively isolated, although it was used by local Scouting associations.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rder-intensifies/story-e6freoof-1226345241012

Thats not the link I was looking for but interesting all the same. I read in msm ages ago there were broken branches near the creek but I cant find it now grr

 

[LadyBird1]

And don't forget there was a report of two cars seen and theories on here at the time assumed one car was used to block passing traffic's view of what was happening out the back of the other car .

Here's another thought. Two people one car, or three people two cars.
Stop at bridge. Remove parcel from the back, and drive off leaving one person to deal with the package. Time less than one minute.
Return after about 15 minutes and collect the person who is on foot.
If only one car was used, could even leave a "lookout" person at the scene, for reporting duties.
My thoughts to date had sort of stagnated at leaving a car alone and unattended for any length of time. This way there is nothing but a brief pause.
Would hardly raise even an eyebrow.

 

[Fuskier]

Just a thought. The positioning of her clothing may indicate to Detectives whether she was placed there, dragged there, thrown etc.

 

[DrWatson]

Here's another thought. Two people one car, or three people two cars.
Stop at bridge. Remove parcel from the back, and drive off leaving one person to deal with the package. Time less than one minute.
Return after about 15 minutes and collect the person who is on foot.
If only one car was used, could even leave a "lookout" person at the scene, for reporting duties.
My thoughts to date had sort of stagnated at leaving a car alone and unattended for any length of time. This way there is nothing but a brief pause.
Would hardly raise even an eyebrow.

Yes indeed - that's a distinct possibility. Good thinking. Leave one person there to do the "placing" while the other(s) drive away - perhaps up towards the scout camp, turn around, and come back to pick up said "placer" and head home.

The sliding of a body down that bank though still bothers me a bit - it really is quite steep - you can see that from Makara's photo of the cleaning crew. And in pitch dark, trying to get a body down there would not be easy, whether wrapped in something or not.

Whereas just being dropped over the edge of the bridge may result in only a couple of brushes with plant material (none on the way down, and a couple at the point of impact). But dragging her or carrying her down that bank may well have involved much more plant material. You may recall that there were six plant species found in Allison's hair and on her person, but only two of them were to be found at Kholo Creek, while all six were to be found near the back patio of the house.

Hopefully a lot of these details may be filled in in a couple of weeks or so.

 

[Makara]

Crime scene tape cordoned off one of the gates off Bunya Rd to the nearby Tyamolum Scout Grounds as well as a segment of bushland on Wirrabara Rd near to Kholo Creek, where Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found under a Mt Crosby Rd bridge.
It is understood the bushland nearby has previously been used by people playing games including laser skirmish on weekends but was otherwise relatively isolated, although it was used by local Scouting associations.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rder-intensifies/story-e6freoof-1226345241012

Thats not the link I was looking for but interesting all the same. I read in msm ages ago there were broken branches near the creek but I cant find it now grr

Here's an article mentioning the drag marks. I also remember broken branches being mentioned and they were going to be forensically tested for DNA etc. I'll see if I can find that article in the Media Time Thread.

New findings in murder mystery

Andrew Korner 3rd May 2012 5:22 AM

Police identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks. They also found a mobile phone SIM card, but it was yet to be determined if either of the finds had any relevance to Mrs Baden-Clay's death.

http://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/police-find-suspected-drag-marks-near-creek/1366933/

 

[LadyBird1]

Yes indeed - that's a distinct possibility. Good thinking. Leave one person there to do the "placing" while the other(s) drive away - perhaps up towards the scout camp, turn around, and come back to pick up said "placer" and head home.

The sliding of a body down that bank though still bothers me a bit - it really is quite steep - you can see that from Makara's photo of the cleaning crew. And in pitch dark, trying to get a body down there would not be easy, whether wrapped in something or not.

Whereas just being dropped over the edge of the bridge may result in only a couple of brushes with plant material (none on the way down, and a couple at the point of impact). But dragging her or carrying her down that bank may well have involved much more plant material. You may recall that there were six plant species found in Allison's hair and on her person, but only two of them were to be found at Kholo Creek, while all six were to be found near the back patio of the house.

Hopefully a lot of these details may be filled in in a couple of weeks or so.

Not much plant material from the trip down if the body was "wrapped" or cocooned in a sheet. Could even be nil. Except from the final resting place itself.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Yes Amee, I agree that GBC wanted Allison found to collect the insurance. The burning question though is how did Allison's body come to be where it was found? The thought of GBC actually dragging Allison down the embankment has been discussed here at length. Some agree that this was the case and others are of the opinion that the embankment was too steep, slippery, overgrown etc. for him to do this but IMO it's shaping up to be exactly what happened.

To take this a step further, how would GBC negotiate a steep, overgrown embankment in the dark while carrying or dragging a dead body? On Thursday night, 19 April 2012, it was a waning moon, that didn't rise until 4:08am (see attachment), so it would have been extremely dark at Kholo Creek Bridge. To be able to negotiate the descent down the embankment GBC would have needed a torch or some type of lighting that could be turned off at the sound of approaching traffic. If he had a torch, how did he carry it? In his mouth? IMO he had help in 'placing' Allison's body where it was found, even if it was just someone holding a torch for him. Perhaps even standing on the bridge and shining the torch down for him. Then again, he may have worn a miner's type of head lamp. Wonder if the Police found any of those in the shed at Skull Manor?

MOO.

View attachment 30066

Dare I mention that missing shower curtain? Remember all the fuss about it's absence from the interior photos. Sheet/shower curtain ~~

 

[Amee]

just had a thought (yep scarey I know and way out there )

How deep was the Creek at the time Allisons body was placed under the bridge?
Is it possible he/they entered from further up not at the bridge? Pulling a body along the water to reach the creek bed where she was placed?
More than likely not but just trying work out the how if it was too steep and slippery like the locals have been saying.


"The body's got to get there one way or another so there's always an entry point and an exit point," he said.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ay/story-e6frfkp9-1226343152532#ixzz2Lbp6mDSe

 

[DrWatson]

Not much plant material from the trip down if the body was "wrapped" or cocooned in a sheet. Could even be nil. Except from the final resting place itself.

Fair comment But then they'd have to get rid of the sheet or plastic bag or whatever. Wonder if that was ever found, if that's the case?

 

[marlywings]

Here's an article mentioning the drag marks. I also remember broken branches being mentioned and they were going to be forensically tested for DNA etc. I'll see if I can find that article in the Media Time Thread.

Makara it was mentioned in one of the videos from the day Allison's body was found. I posted it in previous thread, unfortunately the video is no longer at the link.

Copied from my post...

@.51 forensics officers took DNA swabs from snapped shrubs near where a canoeist discovered Allison's body

 

[bearbear]

if allison was dropped over the side of the bridge could animals have dragged her body up a bit higher, or would decomp make that impossible?
she may have been wrapped in a tarpaulin and lowered over the side of the bridge, and then released, maybe a helper down below to guide the drop?

 

[Mountain Misst]

Ali, IMO Allison's body wasn't completely under the bridge. You can see in the pic of her blurred body that she is visible from the bridge. Having said that, those pics are screencaps taken from a video, shot from a helicopter and I do find some of them misleading.

Attached is a photo taken from ground level under the bridge when the area was being cleared after Allison was found. The tide was high when this photo was taken. Allison's body was found further down the bank in front of the pylon. IMO this photo gives a better perspective of how high the bridge is from the ground. Not that high IMO. Looking at this again, Allison would have to have been dragged to where she was found or she was thrown over the bridge rail. So that puts paid to my theory of her being pushed over the embankment. :banghead:

It was reported that GBC had bruising on his upper torso. Could this have been caused by him leaning against the bridge rail while lifting and heaving Allison over the bridge? MOO.


View attachment 30065

That's a perfect pic Makara thanks. The body was found above the concrete slab we know that as a fact, so even from the very top of the guardrail it has to be less than 8m and if she was lowered over and dropped closer to 6m max. IMO

 

[Mountain Misst]

Fair comment But then they'd have to get rid of the sheet or plastic bag or whatever. Wonder if that was ever found, if that's the case?

A latex finger tip was all that remained...

 

[Thinking]

I'm thinking Allison was carried down because of the wording "placed in the area"...but not only because of that. As I said last night, if she'd rolled all the way down after being dropped over the side of the bridge, I would have thought there'd be a whole lot more than just the two plant species found in her hair or on her clothing.

That was such thick vegetation, there would have to be quite a variety of plants all through there. And I can't see how her body, if it had rolled, came to be in the position it was when found....lengthways along the creek.

For her to have been carried down, I'd imagine at least two people would have been involved. Perhaps there was even three,...one on the bridge holding the torch while the others carried her down.

Just over two weeks to go...cannot come quick enough!!!

Perhaps this is what the police thought too Marly, which is why they seemed to think so early on that more than one person was involved (as well as the car sightings). Really good points.