Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[Obsessor]

Is anyone able to help us with photos of a better resolution?? (Makara ????)

 

[Strangeworld]

Wow - just finished catching up on all the discussions in the last few months. Wondering what next month will reveal.

<modsnip>

 

[they'll get you]

Yes, I always said that the tile was a marker...I just didn't realise until Min spotted the imprint that it was for Allison's body.
I haven't been back for some time, but there was several months last year that I was there every other week and that tile never moved even after heavy rain.

If the imprint of Allison remained in the mud, why then wasn't a good several inches of the mud combed under and around her body for anything of significance like DNA, PHONE or WEAPON anything left imbedded under Allison.

Could the rooftile been put there later from someone like us as a marker or was it put there as a weight for Allison and the mud has been washed away since and revealed the tile? Far fetched but did the tile match any of the BC's homes, some homes have a stack of spare rooftiles in the yard, we do.

Or am I being too Hollywood? :banghead:



I'm hopelessly addicted

 

[Indromum]

Indromum, that must have been awful to realise, so sad. I think I remember seeing this photo long, long ago, and the discussion afterwards. Any chance you could post it again? Would like another look, just to reaffirm position and mud etc. that Brissie River mud is like quicksand and I'd make a bet that there is still some remnants of the imprint.

I am on my iPad....I just hit the search button up above and entered 'Mani's photos'. Easy......even for me!

 

[Indromum]

If the imprint of Allison remained in the mud, why then wasn't a good several inches of the mud combed under and around her body for anything of significance like DNA, PHONE or WEAPON anything left imbedded under Allison.

Could the rooftile been put there later from someone like us as a marker or was it put there as a weight for Allison and the mud has been washed away since and revealed the tile? Far fetched but did the tile match any of the BC's homes, some homes have a stack of spare rooftiles in the yard, we do.

Or am I being too Hollywood? :banghead:



I'm hopelessly addicted

There was certainly loads of footprints there for months afterwards. We couldn't see anywhere that had been really worked over by the forensics. The scrub had all been thoroughly cleared. There was no way any of us would venture down into that mud. The tile looked newish like it hadn't been there for years....of course it may be that it was a random roof tile, but it was in the area where Allison was found.

 

[Groundedgirl]

Doc, I should be asleep, but I'm now thinking more and more about these scratches. (Obsessor is at it again!!!)

I'm puzzled by the angle of the scratches- vertical. Parallel and vertical.

IF, and I know its only IF, these were caused by Allison in a struggle, it seems to me that they had to be caused by a downwards, ripping type action. I mean, if GBC was say kneeling over her on th bed, with a pillow over her face, the scratches would be more likely to go from back to front (of the face) wouldnt they? You would pull, as you scratched wouldn't you?
When I think about most face to face type situations, I can really only inagine the scratches being inflicted in a horizontal of diagonal direction.???

The dragging motion seems to be down, in this instant, which looks to me that Allison was reaching up towards his face, arms extended almost. Would this fit???

I started wondering what on earth could be a situation in which she was vertically below his head, and one scenario, that I hate to think about is, if she had the back of her head to his belly. Fitting with this, could we imagine Allison might have been sitting on the lounge watching the footy show, when GBC approached her from behind, and wrapped a rope around her neck and strangled her from behind?
I see a desperate gouge at "that" angle and of that ferocity resulting from this. The height would be about right too. He could have been holding incredibly tightly, and looking in the forward direction.

Not to do with the scratches, but, It would have been fairly silent. There would be next to no mess or no evidence. There would be ligature marks but these would have been destroyed by the decomposition.


If she was the other way around, ie. facing him during the event, (horrid to even think of this I know), and she was reaching up towards his head, like if she was collapsing to her knees or something, chances are he would have been looking down towards her, and again the scratches wouldn't be vertical. ???

Am I just overthinking this??? Does this make sense?

If she was clawing at him whilst he was on top facing her, he would have instinctively pushed his head up and to the side to avoid it, thus creating the vertical lines. I put my own hand to the picture and my pointer and third finger were the same distance apart as the scratches, top to bottom. Lower scratch is deeper as one would expect from the longer and larger middle fingernail. Moo

 

[Obsessor]

If she was clawing at him whilst he was on top facing her, he would have instinctively pushed his head up and to the side to avoid it, thus creating the vertical lines. I put my own hand to the picture and my pointer and third finger were the same distance apart as the scratches, top to bottom. Lower scratch is deeper as one would expect from the longer and larger middle fingernail. Moo

I agree. He would have pulled his head back and up to move away from the scratches, but I still thnk that if the scratching arm was in any way in front of him, as in a face to face contest, the scratch would be diagonal fromhim pulling his head away.

Try putting your fingertips on your cheek bone, and then pull your head. The fingers make a diagonal line towards your mouth, and that is when your own arm is just about vertical.
I find it hard to imagine an action where the fingernails drag so vertically, unless I turn the victim around and have her with arms straight up and him "holding" a fairly straight position, as one might if they are using all their strength to do something. (like when your gritting your teeth and putting all you have into something).

What do you think?

(Thanks for taking on the discussion by the way. )

The other thought I had was that they could be upwards scartches, but They look downwards to me, and I cant really think of any altercation that could lead to upwards scratches.

I also wondered whether Allison reached up to hold on as she was being pushed off the bridge, but again I think the angle would be wrong, with him leaning forward and her facing back to him??? (I know she probably died at home, but just thinking about angles really)

We will never know the answer to this but I am really curious whether there is a decent clue as to how she may have met her death, in the angle of these scratches now that I think about it.

 

[marlywings]

Another reminder....please don't post rumours. If it's not mentioned in MSM or police reports it's not allowed & will be removed.

Also...I should have addressed this a couple days back, however I will do so now. All members are free to discuss any part of the case. If some choose to discuss the roundabout, they're quite entitled to do so. If others don't wish to read the discussion then scrolling by is the best option. Please keep in mind you cannot tell other members what they can or cannot discuss.

 

[DrWatson]

I agree. He would have pulled his head back and up to move away from the scratches, but I still thnk that if the scratching arm was in any way in front of him, as in a face to face contest, the scratch would be diagonal fromhim pulling his head away.

Try putting your fingertips on your cheek bone, and then pull your head. The fingers make a diagonal line towards your mouth, and that is when your own arm is just about vertical.
I find it hard to imagine an action where the fingernails drag so vertically, unless I turn the victim around and have her with arms straight up and him "holding" a fairly straight position, as one might if they are using all their strength to do something. (like when your gritting your teeth and putting all you have into something).

What do you think?

(Thanks for taking on the discussion by the way. )

The other thought I had was that they could be upwards scartches, but They look downwards to me, and I cant really think of any altercation that could lead to upwards scratches.

I also wondered whether Allison reached up to hold on as she was being pushed off the bridge, but again I think the angle would be wrong, with him leaning forward and her facing back to him??? (I know she probably died at home, but just thinking about angles really)

We will never know the answer to this but I am really curious whether there is a decent clue as to how she may have met her death, in the angle of these scratches now that I think about it.

Morning Obby - just a quick post before I start the real world for the day..

A good point you raise about the angle of the scratches, but I would think that they could be caused by any scratching/clawing action that comes up from below. Now GBC was taller than Allison, but despite that, I would think that whatever mode of attack, whether from the front or behind, and whether by hand, or any other form of strangulation or smothering, he would have been above her. The small amount of bruising on the anterior chest wall (anterior = front) of Allison would suggest that she was on her back possibly being held down by a knee or similar. So she would be reaching up.

The angle of the scratches, therefore, would depend entirely on the position of GBC's head, rather than any other factor, and if he were shying away from a flailing arm with clawed hand and long fingernails, that would be the most likely scenario as I see it. Although of course any other combination of positions could produce the same scratches - including Allison reaching behind as you suggest.

Good point though. Although I'm not sure that it would be likely to feature in the defence's case - if the scratches were caused by Allison as opposed to shaving, then the fact that they ARE vertical (and hence suggesting GBC was above her) it would fit more with the fact that he was attacking her, rather than defending himself from a "lash-out" scratch from Allison.

 

[Obsessor]

Morning Obby - just a quick post before I start the real world for the day..

A good point you raise about the angle of the scratches, but I would think that they could be caused by any scratching/clawing action that comes up from below. Now GBC was taller than Allison, but despite that, I would think that whatever mode of attack, whether from the front or behind, and whether by hand, or any other form of strangulation or smothering, he would have been above her. The small amount of bruising on the anterior chest wall (anterior = front) of Allison would suggest that she was on her back possibly being held down by a knee or similar. So she would be reaching up.

The angle of the scratches, therefore, would depend entirely on the position of GBC's head, rather than any other factor, and if he were shying away from a flailing arm with clawed hand and long fingernails, that would be the most likely scenario as I see it. Although of course any other combination of positions could produce the same scratches - including Allison reaching behind as you suggest.

Good point though. Although I'm not sure that it would be likely to feature in the defence's case - if the scratches were caused by Allison as opposed to shaving, then the fact that they ARE vertical (and hence suggesting GBC was above her) it would fit more with the fact that he was attacking her, rather than defending himself from a "lash-out" scratch from Allison.

Thansk so much for your opinion Doc. I find it very interesting.

I actually posted just above that I wondered whether the scratches had come from below, and gone up, but I'm now thinking that the middle one- the largest of the three, (that likely represents the middle, longest finger), would start below the other two if it were upside down. (Am I making any sense? Sorry, its hard to explain.) ie. the middle scratch is going to start higher than the other two and finsh higher due to that finger being longer. Is that right?
So turn the hand upside down to scratch up the face and that line would be the shortest??

Anyhow, very interesting about it being more of struggle than a defence type action by GBC.
Thankyou.

Oh, and wasnt it decided by the forensic medical officer that it was likely to be fingernail scratches and very unlikely to be shaving?

Addit; My apologies Doc, I misinterpreted what you meant by a scratch coming from below. I was mixing that up with the scratch going from bottom to top. I'm with you now.

 

[Mountain Misst]

I am on my iPad....I just hit the search button up above and entered 'Mani's photos'. Easy......even for me!

Here's the link folks... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178134&highlight=mani+photos

 

[alioop]

Good sleuthing about the scratches Obby. I think that the scratches are one of the key pieces of evidence against GBC, though circumstantial. His wife goes missing and he gets nasty seemingly fingernail scratches at around the same time that no medical person he sees believes they are made by his explanation of razor cuts. His explanation is not believable.

I haven't heard anything about Allisons fingernails, for eg how long they were and if she had them manicured regularly. I am sure the police have this info though.

 

[LillyPilly]

Good sleuthing about the scratches Obby. I think that the scratches are one of the key pieces of evidence against GBC, though circumstantial. His wife goes missing and he gets nasty seemingly fingernail scratches at around the same time that no medical person he sees believes they are made by his explanation of razor cuts. His explanation is not believable.

I haven't heard anything about Allisons fingernails, for eg how long they were and if she had them manicured regularly. I am sure the police have this info though.

Yes, I agree, alioop. Obby, your sleuthing about the scratches has made me think about this "issue" a lot more. When I consider the angles of the scratches, I picture Allison being heavily restrained and, in an attempt to avoid being scratched, GBC has moved his head back. So, when Allison scratched GBC's face, the resulting scratches were almost vertical.

MOO.

 

[LillyPilly]

The angle of the scratches, therefore, would depend entirely on the position of GBC's head, rather than any other factor, and if he were shying away from a flailing arm with clawed hand and long fingernails, that would be the most likely scenario as I see it. Although of course any other combination of positions could produce the same scratches - including Allison reaching behind as you suggest.

Respectfully snipped...

Dr Watson, my apologies for just repeating what you said! And you also explained it much better than I did. I agree that it was the position of GBC's head that ultimately determined the position of his facial scratches.

I am, however, going with the suggestion that GBC was facing Allison. For me, it makes more sense (rather than Allison reaching from behind), as GBC had other injuries/scratches on the front of his body and Allison, herself, also had bruising on her anterior.

MOO.

 

[Obsessor]

Just to provide a link to the comment I made above regarding the msm report that it has been reported that the main scratches were most likely the result of a shaving incident.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/court-documents-show-police-focus-on-blunt-razor-cuts-on-gerard-baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568"The main facial injuries have all the hallmarks of fingernail scratches.

"It is impossible for me or anyone else to say that they were caused by fingernails: they could, for instanced (sic), also have been caused by scratching with the blunt end of a pencil from which a rubber had been removed.

"In over 50 years of life and 30 years in medical practice I have never seen nor heard of injuries of this type being caused by the modern type of disposable razor or razor blade.

"Each of the main injuries has features making it implausible that it was caused by shaving. The main injuries were not caused at the same time as the more trivial injuries. Those more trivial injuries are fairly characteristic of razor cuts."

(Thanks for the comments everyone.)

 

[LillyPilly]

Another image....

I'm pretty sure there were three distinct parallel scratches.

Thank you for posting this photo, Obby. I cannot believe that these are the scratches that GBC asked doctors to record as shaving cuts.

In my opinion, when I look at the way the scratches curve, I can clearly picture fingernails moving down the skin, across the hollows of the cheeks, then bumping over the section of cheek that covers the bottom teeth. So, the scratches start as somewhat straight, then curve in the area where the fingernails hit an "obstacle" (i.e. teeth).

MOO.

 

[bearbear]

Here's the link folks... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178134&highlight=mani+photos

thanks for the link, just had a look at manis photos, they are amazing and really show the stickiness of the mud. hopefully police searched and compared roof tiles!

 

[LillyPilly]

Just to provide a link to the comment I made above regarding the msm report that it has been reported that the main scratches were most likely the result of a shaving incident.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/court-documents-show-police-focus-on-blunt-razor-cuts-on-gerard-baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568"The main facial injuries have all the hallmarks of fingernail scratches.

"It is impossible for me or anyone else to say that they were caused by fingernails: they could, for instanced (sic), also have been caused by scratching with the blunt end of a pencil from which a rubber had been removed.

"In over 50 years of life and 30 years in medical practice I have never seen nor heard of injuries of this type being caused by the modern type of disposable razor or razor blade.

"Each of the main injuries has features making it implausible that it was caused by shaving. The main injuries were not caused at the same time as the more trivial injuries. Those more trivial injuries are fairly characteristic of razor cuts."

(Thanks for the comments everyone.)

It's great to have a doctor confirm our thoughts on the scratches. Yet, I think most people who have previously used a razor and accidentally cut themselves (e.g. males on face; females on legs) would consider GBC's explanation for the scratches to be a complete lie, without confirmation from a medical professional. So, GBC has got to be a complete ***** to think that someone as experienced and knowledgeable as a doctor would accept his explanation. Possibly a mate down at the pub, after five beers, would, but surely not a doctor...

If I saw someone walking down the street with those kind of scratches, I would immediately jump to the conclusion that it was either DV-related, or the individual got a little too friendly with an animal with large claws. Razor blade cuts would certainly not come to mind.

MOO.

 

[Obsessor]

Thank you for posting this photo, Obby. I cannot believe that these are the scratches that GBC asked doctors to record as shaving cuts.

In my opinion, when I look at the way the scratches curve, I can clearly picture fingernails moving down the skin, across the hollows of the cheeks, then bumping over the section of cheek that covers the bottom teeth. So, the scratches start as somewhat straight, then curve in the area where the fingernails hit an "obstacle" (i.e. teeth).

MOO.

I know, I was so shocked when I saw the image for the first time. It still shocks me.

I completely agree that the angle of GBCs head determines the direction of the scratches, but I'm still thinking Allison was vertically below him, either her back to his front, or front to front, with her reaching up, and then she must have been trying to grab for something in order to pull herself up or him down??? I dont know..still thinking on that one????
I know Allison was shorter than him, but I'm thinking, this came from quite a bit below him??? Either way, it does seem like a close struggle rather than one where there was distance between them.?????? (bloody awful thought)

 

[Obsessor]

It's great to have a doctor confirm our thoughts on the scratches. Yet, I think most people who have previously used a razor and accidentally cut themselves (e.g. males on face; females on legs) would consider GBC's explanation for the scratches to be a complete lie, without confirmation from a medical professional. So, GBC has got to be a complete ***** to think that someone as experienced and knowledgeable as a doctor would accept his explanation. Possibly a mate down at the pub, after five beers, would, but surely not a doctor...

If I saw someone walking down the street with those kind of scratches, I would immediately jump to the conclusion that it was either DV-related, or the individual got a little too friendly with an animal with large claws. Razor blade cuts would certainly not come to mind.

MOO.

I agree again . He would have been better off saying he was wrestling a cougar or a bear than had a shaving mishap. :banghead: