Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

[Perodicticus potto]

Oh, please. She wasn't testifying as the ME. There was plenty of chatter going on for her to get the gist of what had happened.

And guess what? People DO say rude and insensitive things while in shock. Even in my family, where nobody has ever been murdered.

Also, I don't think you have to have insider knowledge of a crime to guess that someone who died after a knife attack bled to death.

 

[Footwarrior]

regarding the whole time of death theory i dont see it being at late as conviction says and i am curious about the hole theory of stomach contents.. reading this thread earlier about the emptying of the stomach is it possible she died late and came home and ate having already passed te first meal?

my problem is with the transit in her digestive system because surely even if she died earlier or late there wouold have been something passing in her system from eating at 6 o' clock......i mean food starts being broken down and passing from ur stomach into intestines after 30 minutes or so i would guess so part of this food would be in there even if she died at 8/9/10.

I dunno just trying to understnad that info

The time it takes for food to pass from the stomach can vary, but only in extraordinary circumstances does it take more than 3 hours.

According to the testimony of Meredith's friends, she ate around 6:30 pm them watched the movie "the Notebook" on DVD. At around 8:45 pm she started home, walking part of the way with her friend Sophie. They parted company near Sophie's home at around 8:55 pm, and Meredith walked the rest of the way to the cottage by herself. At around 9:05 pm a security camera at the garage across the street from the cottage captured an image of someone walking toward the cottage gate. This was almost certainly Meredith.

Given this timeline, it's almost certain that Meredith died less than a half hour after arriving back home. The contents of her stomach were consistent with the pizza she ate with her friends, but none of that meal had moved into her duodenum. When the attack started, Meredith was still dressed as she had been for the walk home.

The problem for the prosecution is that a witness places both Amanda and Raffaele at his apartment at 8:45 pm. Raffaele's computer showed a movie file being closed at 9:10 pm and a video short being started at 9:26 pm. Amanda and Raffaele were not at the cottage when Meredith came home, but Rudy Guede was.

At 10:30 that evening, a car broke down in the exit to the parking garage. The occupants testified that the cottage was quiet and dark all during the time they were waiting for a tow truck. Whatever had happened in that cottage was over by that time.

 

[Monzoo]

The time it takes for food to pass from the stomach can vary, but only in extraordinary circumstances does it take more than 3 hours.

According to the testimony of Meredith's friends, she ate around 6:30 pm them watched the movie "the Notebook" on DVD. At around 8:45 pm she started home, walking part of the way with her friend Sophie. They parted company near Sophie's home at around 8:55 pm, and Meredith walked the rest of the way to the cottage by herself. At around 9:05 pm a security camera at the garage across the street from the cottage captured an image of someone walking toward the cottage gate. This was almost certainly Meredith.

Given this timeline, it's almost certain that Meredith died less than a half hour after arriving back home. The contents of her stomach were consistent with the pizza she ate with her friends, but none of that meal had moved into her duodenum. When the attack started, Meredith was still dressed as she had been for the walk home.

The problem for the prosecution is that a witness places both Amanda and Raffaele at his apartment at 8:45 pm. Raffaele's computer showed a movie file being closed at 9:10 pm and a video short being started at 9:26 pm. Amanda and Raffaele were not at the cottage when Meredith came home, but Rudy Guede was.

At 10:30 that evening, a car broke down in the exit to the parking garage. The occupants testified that the cottage was quiet and dark all during the time they were waiting for a tow truck. Whatever had happened in that cottage was over by that time.

Don't forget the evidence from Meredith's phone. She placed an aborted call to her mother shortly before 9:00 pm. The next activity was around 10:00 pm, and consisted of calls to her bank and voicemail that were terminated before they connected. At around 10:15, the phone began to receive either a photo or message, and the transmission was stopped. The tower that the phone connected to had an extremely weak signal at the cottage, and a stronger signal closer to where the phones were found the next day.

It seems probable that her phones were away from the cottage by then, and Meredith was already dead.


On another note, I was listening to the Stephanie Miller show today, and they had a short interview with Andrew Gumbel, who co-wrote Raffale's book. Interesting to listen to him give a very short description of the case to an audience that was not following the trial at all, but wanted to know what had happened this week.

I very much agree with one thing he said -- that he hoped Raffaele found a way to get out of Italy until this is resolved.

The interview took place around 10:30, or 1/2 way through her three hour show. I'll see if I can find a link for it.

Edited to add: depite the fact that I share a birthday with Yo Yo Ma and Thom Yorker of Radiohead, I am not a talented musician. I have no idea what the fact that I also share a birthday with Oliver North and Joy Behar means.

 

[Ebbiguise]

The time it takes for food to pass from the stomach can vary, but only in extraordinary circumstances does it take more than 3 hours.

According to the testimony of Meredith's friends, she ate around 6:30 pm them watched the movie "the Notebook" on DVD. At around 8:45 pm she started home, walking part of the way with her friend Sophie. They parted company near Sophie's home at around 8:55 pm, and Meredith walked the rest of the way to the cottage by herself. At around 9:05 pm a security camera at the garage across the street from the cottage captured an image of someone walking toward the cottage gate. This was almost certainly Meredith.

Given this timeline, it's almost certain that Meredith died less than a half hour after arriving back home. The contents of her stomach were consistent with the pizza she ate with her friends, but none of that meal had moved into her duodenum. When the attack started, Meredith was still dressed as she had been for the walk home.

The problem for the prosecution is that a witness places both Amanda and Raffaele at his apartment at 8:45 pm. Raffaele's computer showed a movie file being closed at 9:10 pm and a video short being started at 9:26 pm. Amanda and Raffaele were not at the cottage when Meredith came home, but Rudy Guede was.

At 10:30 that evening, a car broke down in the exit to the parking garage. The occupants testified that the cottage was quiet and dark all during the time they were waiting for a tow truck. Whatever had happened in that cottage was over by that time.

I want to agree with you, but my question is even if everything you say is true this does not explain still why there was nothing in her duodenum if she was killed even at an eariler time.

i'm tryin to understand this and learn more about the basics of science and the digestive system but it seems like food starts breaking down immediately in the stomach shortly after traveling to it. The order you ate it does not matter as it will break down different foods quicker even if you ate it after another and through the process foods will begin down your small intestine in an overall process of digestion. Some foods will still be in your stomach breaking down while others will be travelling at different points in your small instestine (duodenum being one) or even your colon....all simultaneously.

Within an hour minimum something should have broken down and started traveling into her duodenum no?

also where are you getting the starting of a film at 9:26 at rafaeles apartment? this was not entered in as evidence from what i understand so how are you using it as factual

 

[otto]

“She was actually sitting alone in a separate room waiting for her boyfriend, and Napoleani said in court Friday (Feb. 27) that when she went to get some water she walked by the room where Amanda was and saw Amanda ‘doing the splits.’ She said she thought this was ‘odd behavior’ and that Amanda should have instead appeared to be mourning the loss of Meredith. The tabloid press further sensationalized her statement by changing ‘the splits’ to ‘cartwheels,’ and the mainstream press ran with that. ”

“Amanda does yoga to calm herself down and relieve stress, and she told her father and me that’s why she was doing the splits."

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2009/03/01/news/knox-says-cop-misread-yoga-move

Others describe the woman`s cartwheels as the actions of a restless teenager. Now that we`ve seen another woman, Jodi Arias, doing headstands, I get the impression that women associated with murder do very strange things while waiting to be interviewed by police.

"Accounts of Knox doing splits and cartwheels as she awaited questioning by the police are a distortion of the behavior of a teenager exhibiting restlessness, Bremner argues ..."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html#ixzz2OrHGpUA5

 

[otto]

Also, I don't think you have to have insider knowledge of a crime to guess that someone who died after a knife attack bled to death.

How could Knox know that a knife was used.

This is where everyone was positioned when the door was opened. Knox and Sollecito left the house without passing by the bedroom. No one should have known that a knife was used and no one should have known that she bled to death (since she was covered with a duvet).

 

[otto]

Don't forget the evidence from Meredith's phone. She placed an aborted call to her mother shortly before 9:00 pm. The next activity was around 10:00 pm, and consisted of calls to her bank and voicemail that were terminated before they connected. At around 10:15, the phone began to receive either a photo or message, and the transmission was stopped. The tower that the phone connected to had an extremely weak signal at the cottage, and a stronger signal closer to where the phones were found the next day.

It seems probable that her phones were away from the cottage by then, and Meredith was already dead.


On another note, I was listening to the Stephanie Miller show today, and they had a short interview with Andrew Gumbel, who co-wrote Raffale's book. Interesting to listen to him give a very short description of the case to an audience that was not following the trial at all, but wanted to know what had happened this week.

I very much agree with one thing he said -- that he hoped Raffaele found a way to get out of Italy until this is resolved.

The interview took place around 10:30, or 1/2 way through her three hour show. I'll see if I can find a link for it.

Edited to add: depite the fact that I share a birthday with Yo Yo Ma and Thom Yorker of Radiohead, I am not a talented musician. I have no idea what the fact that I also share a birthday with Oliver North and Joy Behar means.

Meredith`s phones were placed away from the cottage shortly after midnight when her father called her.

One of the strangest phone calls was between Knox and her mother in the middle of the night. Knox had amnesia about that phone call as well. She called her mother before the body was found - when it was in the middle of the night in Seattle. She had never done that before. Nothing had yet happened, yet she was phoning her mom ... and then her mom was making plans to go to Italy.

Regarding phone calls, we have the pair simultaneously turning off their cell phones during the time of the murder, something neither had ever done before. We also have Knox supposedly desperately trying to contact Meredith in the morning, but not really giving anyone enough time to actually answer a phone. Knox told Filomina that she was trying to contact Meredith and then ignored Filomina`s phone calls.

 

[sherlockh]

I want to agree with you, but my question is even if everything you say is true this does not explain still why there was nothing in her duodenum if she was killed even at an eariler time.

i'm tryin to understand this and learn more about the basics of science and the digestive system but it seems like food starts breaking down immediately in the stomach shortly after traveling to it. The order you ate it does not matter as it will break down different foods quicker even if you ate it after another and through the process foods will begin down your small intestine in an overall process of digestion. Some foods will still be in your stomach breaking down while others will be travelling at different points in your small instestine (duodenum being one) or even your colon....all simultaneously.

Within an hour minimum something should have broken down and started traveling into her duodenum no?

also where are you getting the starting of a film at 9:26 at rafaeles apartment? this was not entered in as evidence from what i understand so how are you using it as factual

Exactly. Food enters the duodenum within half an hour even according to the science. The claim that it is still normal that nothing is in the duodenum after 3 hours is ridiculous. You have to come up with all kinds of impossible delays or a medical disorder to come to that, and then the impossible delay suddenly stops after 9pm because she was murdered. Where is the logic?

If you just follow the science and the time line then within half an hour the 6pm pizza entered the duodenum. At TOD, which was set by the coroner at 10:50pm, that 6pm pizza was long gone from her stomach. Therefore whatever was in her stomach at TOD must have been eaten after she arrived home. It is that simple.

 

[Ebbiguise]

Exactly. Food enters the duodenum within half an hour even according to the science. The claim that it is still normal that nothing is in the duodenum after 3 hours is ridiculous. You have to come up with all kinds of impossible delays or a medical disorder to come to that, and then the impossible delay suddenly stops after 9pm because she was murdered. Where is the logic?

If you just follow the science and the time line then within half an hour the 6pm pizza entered the duodenum. At TOD, which was set by the coroner at 10:50pm, that 6pm pizza was long gone from her stomach. Therefore whatever was in her stomach at TOD must have been eaten after she arrived home. It is that simple.

This still does not explain it tho sorry

If she ate pizza between 6-6:30 which is pretty well established, and THEN ate apple crumble at around 7:30/7:45 which is also well established, she would still have something in her duodenum even at a 10:50 death time.Even more so if she came home and ate something else as you are claiming and died at 10:50+

still trying to undestand this but it seems like there would have been something in there either way, even if she died at 9 PM but maybe it is just more likely that she might not at this time? is this possible scientifically??......it is possible her stomach would not be completely empty even at a later death time tho.
This (stomach being completely emptied after a meal) that can take anywhere from 3-5 hours depending on person and type of meal. what is not exactly clear to me is at what point would food start to slowly enter her duodenum.

it is not like it just happens simultaneously.....again, some food would start to clear the stomach and move while the rest remains in the stomach, but at what time frame does this happen is my main ????

 

[sherlockh]

This still does not explain it tho sorry

If she ate pizza between 6-6:30 which is pretty well established, and THEN ate apple crumble at around 7:30/7:45 which is also well established, she would still have something in her duodenum even at a 10:50 death time.Even more so if she came home and ate something else as you are claiming and died at 10:50+

still trying to undestand this but it seems like there would have been something in there either way, even if she died at 9 PM but maybe it is just more likely that she might not at this time? is this possible scientifically??......it is possible her stomach would not be completely empty even at a later death time tho.
This (stomach being completely emptied after a meal) that can take anywhere from 3-5 hours depending on person and type of meal. what is not exactly clear to me is at what point would food start to slowly enter her duodenum.

it is not like it just happens simultaneously.....again, some food would start to clear the stomach and move while the rest remains in the stomach, but at what time frame does this happen is my main ????

Sorry you make a few mistakes in your math. It takes about 2-3 hours for the stomach to empty. We are talking about a few slices of pizza. Not some heavy meat meal. That pizza was long gone by 10:50pm. The apple is a non issue. That just takes minutes to empty from the stomach since it is mostly water and was probably waiting behind that much slower pizza.

Gastric emptying does not take 3 hours to start. That is simply not true.

After consuming a typical solid meal, there is a lag time of 20 to 30 minutes in which there is minimal gastric emptying.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/emptying.html

Yes, the only conclusion can be that she ate shortly before she was murdered. Sad but true.

 

[otto]

Isn`t it true that stomach contents is a most unreliable method for determining time of death? I`m not convinced that any amount of discussion regarding what was eaten when can change that.

 

[sherlockh]

Isn`t it true that stomach contents is a most unreliable method for determining time of death? I`m not convinced that any amount of discussion regarding what was eaten when can change that.

Yes this is true and made clear in the Massei report. Note that I am not claiming any specific TOD based on the stomach content. Simply that she must have eaten shortly before she was murdered based on the lack of duodenum content and stomach content.

 

[otto]

Yes this is true and made clear in the Massei report. Note that I am not claiming any specific TOD based on the stomach content. Simply that she must have eaten shortly before she was murdered based on the lack of duodenum content and stomach content.

When the discussion about dissecting Meredith`s stomach contents first started, well before the appeal hearing, my impression was that someone was trying really hard to pinpoint the time of death in order to argue that Knox and Sollecito could be proven as being somewhere else at the time of the murder. Since stomach contents are the least reliable method for determining time of death, it always seemed like a pointless debate. By definition, nothing can be conclusively determined based on stomach contents.

 

[Ebbiguise]

Sorry you make a few mistakes in your math. It takes about 2-3 hours for the stomach to empty. We are talking about a few slices of pizza. Not some heavy meat meal. That pizza was long gone by 10:50pm. The apple is a non issue. That just takes minutes to empty from the stomach since it is mostly water and was probably waiting behind that much slower pizza.

Gastric emptying does not take 3 hours to start. That is simply not true.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/emptying.html

Yes, the only conclusion can be that she ate shortly before she was murdered. Sad but true.

This meal would be in her duodenum in either situation.

The small intestine is the longest part of the process in pushing her meal through, specifically the duodenum is the first stage of this and moves the food along in a process that takes several hours to exit into the next point.

How does she eat at 6, then again at 7:30 and this meal has completely emptied from her stomach, and passed through her duodenum in 3-4 hours? its highly improbable if not impossible that her duodenum would be completely empty

u are also trying to minimize the meal amount and the type. I am not sure what the pizza had on it, but it certainly had cheese which is something that takes possibly the longest to digest. i would assume 2-3 slices of pizza and some apple crumb whatever is a moderate meal for a girl of merediths size....its not huge, its not insignificant, lets just run with "normal".

I am not privy to the science of it but obviously certain foods take longer to start processing out of the stomach with meat and cheese being very high on the list of things, and liquids and fruits etc being low. it seems fat content among other things play a large role in time of this, which makes for a very slow process. again i dont know enough but knowing what she ate someone who is educated might be able to discuss what al this meeans

The chart you showed provide a rate to where the meal is being emptied from the stomach, and into the duodenum and it says there is typically a lag time of 30 minutes before this starts happening.

So how long from there does the meal stay in her duodenum?

Again, to be clear this meal would need to completely pass through her stomach and duodenum entirely, not sure about the entire small intestine

 

[Ebbiguise]

When the discussion about dissecting Meredith`s stomach contents first started, well before the appeal hearing, my impression was that someone was trying really hard to pinpoint the time of death in order to argue that Knox and Sollecito could be proven as being somewhere else at the time of the murder. Since stomach contents are the least reliable method for determining time of death, it always seemed like a pointless debate. By definition, nothing can be conclusively determined based on stomach contents.

It is not the point of pinpointing an exact time, but in this case in particular it can tell us which is more likely IMO.

It seems scientifically more likely that she was in a much slower range of gastric emptying which is not impossible and does happen.

This, as opposed to her having the fastest digestive track ever known and she completely passed a meal at 6:30 along with dessert at 7:30 completely out of her stomach and completely out of her small intestines within a 4-5 hour period, as well as eating another meal that was the same content of the previous meal when there is no evidence to suggest that is true.....i still have questions but i think there is something to be said for this

 

[otto]

This meal would be in her duodenum in either situation.

The small intestine is the longest part of the process in pushing her meal through, specifically the duodenum is the first stage of this and moves the food along in a process that takes several hours to exit into the next point.

How does she eat at 6, then again at 7:30 and this meal has completely emptied from her stomach, and passed through her duodenum in 3-4 hours? its highly improbable if not impossible that her duodenum would be completely empty

u are also trying to minimize the meal amount and the type. I am not sure what the pizza had on it, but it certainly had cheese which is something that takes possibly the longest to digest. i would assume 2-3 slices of pizza and some apple crumb whatever is a moderate meal for a girl of merediths size....its not huge, its not insignificant, lets just run with "normal".

I am not privy to the science of it but obviously certain foods take longer to start processing out of the stomach with meat and cheese being very high on the list of things, and liquids and fruits etc being low. it seems fat content among other things play a large role in time of this, which makes for a very slow process. again i dont know enough but knowing what she ate someone who is educated might be able to discuss what al this meeans

The chart you showed provide a rate to where the meal is being emptied from the stomach, and into the duodenum and it says there is typically a lag time of 30 minutes before this starts happening.

So how long from there does the meal stay in her duodenum?

How do room temperature, lack of sleep and alcohol consumption factor into food digestion and time of death..

 

[Ebbiguise]

How do room temperature, lack of sleep and alcohol consumption factor into food digestion and time of death..

Alcohol seems to actually slow the metabolism in terms of binge drinking such as she did the night before as i understand. i think heavy consistent (alcoholic dependant problem) drinking can actually speed up the metabolism.

I have no idea on lack of sleep, my logic or just going off common sense would tell me it slows the proccess as well since good sleep is very healthy for the body and specifically things related to overal healthy body functions.

no idea on room temperature and not even sure it is of huge significance unless we are talkling drastic temperatures the body will need to do weird things against.

do you have a point or knowledge on that question or were u just asking me?

 

[otto]

It is not the point of pinpointing an exact time, but in this case in particular it can tell us which is more likely IMO.

It seems scientifically more likely that she was in a much slower range of gastric emptying which is not impossible and does happen.

This, as opposed to her having the fastest digestive track ever known and she completely passed a meal at 6:30 along with dessert at 7:30 completely out of her stomach and completely out of her small intestines within a 4-5 hour period, as well as eating another meal that was the same content of the previous meal when there is no evidence to suggest that is true.....i still have questions but i think there is something to be said for this

We know that she was murdered some time between 9 PM and midnight. Stomach contents cannot help narrow down that time frame, because stomach contents are the most unreliable method for determining time of death.

Guede`s timeline would probably help narrow down the time of death. He went clubbing after midnight. Before that, he ran home to change. Before that, he murdered Meredith. Wouldn`t that place the time of death around 11:30.

 

[otto]

Alcohol seems to actually slow the metabolism in terms of binge drinking such as she did the night before as i understand. i think heavy consistent (alcoholic dependant problem) drinking can actually speed up the metabolism.

I have no idea on lack of sleep, my logic or just going off common sense would tell me it slows the proccess as well since good sleep is very healthy for the body and specifically things related to overal healthy body functions.

no idea on room temperature and not even sure it is of huge significance unless we are talkling drastic temperatures the body will need to do weird things against.

do you have a point or knowledge on that question or were u just asking me?

I don`t know anything about stomach contents of a deceased person other than the fact that stomach contents are unreliable in determining time of death.

I have read enough to know that alcohol consumption, room temperature and lack of sleep are related to digestion. Discussion about stomach contents seems to address only what was eaten and at what time that was eaten, but all other factors seem to be ignored. Meredith was sleep deprived, she had been drinking heavily less than 24 hours prior to the murder and the cottage was cold. All of this may have slowed the digestive process such that whatever time estimates are assumed, based on what was eaten and when it was eaten, probably have to be stretched out.

 

[sherlockh]

This meal would be in her duodenum in either situation.

The small intestine is the longest part of the process in pushing her meal through, specifically the duodenum is the first stage of this and moves the food along in a process that takes several hours to exit into the next point.

How does she eat at 6, then again at 7:30 and this meal has completely emptied from her stomach, and passed through her duodenum in 3-4 hours? its highly improbable if not impossible that her duodenum would be completely empty

u are also trying to minimize the meal amount and the type. I am not sure what the pizza had on it, but it certainly had cheese which is something that takes possibly the longest to digest. i would assume 2-3 slices of pizza and some apple crumb whatever is a moderate meal for a girl of merediths size....its not huge, its not insignificant, lets just run with "normal".

I am not privy to the science of it but obviously certain foods take longer to start processing out of the stomach with meat and cheese being very high on the list of things, and liquids and fruits etc being low. it seems fat content among other things play a large role in time of this, which makes for a very slow process. again i dont know enough but knowing what she ate someone who is educated might be able to discuss what al this meeans

The chart you showed provide a rate to where the meal is being emptied from the stomach, and into the duodenum and it says there is typically a lag time of 30 minutes before this starts happening.

So how long from there does the meal stay in her duodenum?

Again, to be clear this meal would need to completely pass through her stomach and duodenum entirely, not sure about the entire small intestine

Food stays minutes in the duodenum, not hours. The link I gave shows a total stomach emptying time for a solid meal of just 2 hours. It is not super fast at all, and even 4 hours would still fit the timeline. It is completely normal that the pizza had been processed through the stomach and duodenum in that time frame.

More importantly is the gastric delay time that the link I gave shows is 20-30 minutes for a solid meal. Not even close to 3 hours. Also note that they did find food at the end of the intestines. Just where the pizza would have been if you follow a regular timeline.