Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

[sherlockh]

No, Conti and Vecchiotti found the DNA that is now being tested, and yet they drew the conclusions that they did (correctly IMO). The presence of Knox's DNA and other organic matter on the blade reinforces the notion that the knife had not been carefully cleaned.

Not carefully enough at least Knox's own lawyer was certain it was just starch.

"We are certain that they are not organic traces, but just starch cells," Ghirga said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knox-judge-orders-dna-tests-knife/story?id=20470298

 

[sherlockh]

They used TMB, and the knife has now been tested several times for blood and always gives a negative result. Nor did Lukis Anderson's DNA have any business being on Ravi Kumra's fingernails. No one knows the route of transmission, BTW.

You should know by now that TMB can't exclude blood.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Not carefully enough at least Knox's own lawyer was certain it was just starch.

Starch is a polymer of glucose, and it is an organic compound (almost all carbon-containing molecules are defined as organic). There is no good reason to criticize Ghirga over what is or is not defined by a chemist as "organic" IMO. Conti and Vecchiotti found starch, but whether the additional matter is or is not starch is not yet clear to me. A knife used to stab someone must necessarily have blood on it. The prosecution's implicit argument is that the blood was not removed but not starch or DNA, and that notion is difficult to envision, to say the least.
ETA
I think that Ghirga was trying to say that the material was starch, but not cellular matter. MOO.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

You should know by now that TMB can't exclude blood.

Both luminol and TMB detect the possibility of blood. A confirmatory test is needed for a definitive positive result. Conti and Vecchiotti performed a second TMB test, and Stefanoni did both a TMB and a "species-specific" test, from what I can see of p. 54 of the translated C-V report. That is a total of three negative tests using two different methods. I discussed the sensitivities of a number of blood tests here. Modern confirmatory tests are very sensitive.

 

[otto]

I'm not sure I understand where your assertion about the efficiency and legitimacy of various legal systems being questioned comes from. I have never said anything in criticism of the legal system.

All I am saying is that there seem to be enough gaps in our knowledge about the evidence to result in two different verdicts at different times. I don't understand how that can be called into question. They were imprisoned, they were released, now there is talk of imprisonment again.

It certainly does look like there were gaps in knowledge. The Conti and Vecchiotti team filed an incomplete, questionable report that critiqued the police, but failed to complete the task they were assigned. Furthermore, they interpreted DNA as starch, and they were unaware of the most recent methods for analyzing DNA. Fortunately, that gap in knowledge was discovered and a proper scientific examination of the evidence has been undertaken. Knox and Sollecito should consider themselves lucky that they were released on the basis of a questionable report.

 

[otto]

No, Conti and Vecchiotti found the DNA that is now being tested, and yet they drew the conclusions that they did (correctly IMO). The presence of Knox's DNA and other organic matter on the blade reinforces the notion that the knife had not been carefully cleaned.

If they identified DNA that was measurable, why is this in the conclusion of their report?



Ref: Conti Vecchiotti Report (translation); p 143

 

[rashomon]

You should know by now that TMB can't exclude blood.

Was it a mistake then not to have conducted tests on Sollecito's kitchen knife that could exclude the presence of blood?

 

[Harmony 2]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/dna-results-key-piece-evidence-amanda-knox-case-20552198

 

[sherlockh]

Was it a mistake then not to have conducted tests on Sollecito's kitchen knife that could exclude the presence of blood?

I am not sure if a Luminol test is possible on a knife. It is made from metal after all but I am not sure if that is the problem. Also a Luminol test could interfere with the DNA test. Defense never argued there should have been a Luminol test and never requested this.

 

[sherlockh]

Both luminol and TMB detect the possibility of blood. A confirmatory test is needed for a definitive positive result. Conti and Vecchiotti performed a second TMB test, and Stefanoni did both a TMB and a "species-specific" test, from what I can see of p. 54 of the translated C-V report. That is a total of three negative tests using two different methods. I discussed the sensitivities of a number of blood tests here. Modern confirmatory tests are very sensitive.

A negative "species-specific" test? <modsnip>

 

[sherlockh]

If they identified DNA that was measurable, why is this in the conclusion of their report?

Ref: Conti Vecchiotti Report (translation); p 143

And said this?

"There was starch but certainly no DNA on the blade," Carla Vecchiotti, who has been reviewing DNA evidence in the case, told the appeal hearing in Perugia.

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/18530440/amanda-knox-trial-told-no-dna-on-knife

 

[otto]

And said this?

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/18530440/amanda-knox-trial-told-no-dna-on-knife

It's very interesting that those that touted the Conti and Vecchiotti report as demonstrating expertise above and beyond that of the public-servant forensic examiners are now claiming that C&V reported that they found DNA. We know from the generously provided translation of their report that C&V claimed that there was no blood and no DNA on the knife or the bra. How bizarre.

After the Hellman report, it was said that there was nothing but starch on the knife. Today, that has been proven untrue. It's like watching a flip flop in the middle of the street ... "there's nothing but starch" & "we knew all along that there was DNA" ... and what, no one is suppose to notice the shifting goal post?

 

[otto]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/dna-results-key-piece-evidence-amanda-knox-case-20552198

Does Knox have Ted Simon on retainer ... instead of paying her debt to Patrick?

... or does he speak on her behalf for free; no relationship with the family PR firm?

 

[sherlockh]

Does Knox have Ted Simon on retainer ... instead of paying her debt to Patrick?

... or does he speak on her behalf for free; no relationship with the family PR firm?

It says he is a lawyer for Knox, although I don't think he ever attended a court session. Horrible spin attempt. I never seen the prosecution express any hope regarding this test. They are testing a separate trace. The trace that contained Meredith's DNA is not being retested. Showing a murder suspect sitting in a flowery tree. Strange world

 

[Nova]

Does anyone here think we'll ever outright know the truth about this case?

Just curious, because I fear very strongly that we never will! I wish someone would confess something concrete.

Actually, Rudy Guede did. And his account did not include AK's or RS' involvement--until after he had been in custody awhile. Hmmm...

As for your intuition, it is spot on. RS may have carried pocket knives, but there's no evidence he wandered around with kitchen utensils in hand. What's more the victim's DNA was only "found" on the kitchen knife after the results were gamed by the DNA tester--per every reputable DNA expert on the planet, IIRC.

 

[Nova]

I think much of the confusion, for me at least, is that the 2 sides (pro and contra guilt) interpret the court findings in so diverse a manner.

An article such as Dempseys which appeared yesterday definitely makes you doubt what you were reading elsewhere (such as TJMK, where they believe the finding was a huge blow to the defense):

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http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...r-amanda-knox-victims-dna-not-found-on-knife/

I really hope the discussion on Nov. 6 will clear this up, and that the case will wrap soon after (as the appeal process is supposed to be a brief one).

Great history of the claims of DNA on the knife. Meredith Kercher's DNA was NOT found on the tip or any other part of the knife.

 

[otto]

It says he is a lawyer for Knox, although I don't think he ever attended a court session. Horrible spin attempt. I never seen the prosecution express any hope regarding this test. They are testing a separate trace. The trace that contained Meredith's DNA is not being retested. Showing a murder suspect sitting in a flowery tree. Strange world

If Ted Simons is Knox's lawyer, then she must have him on retainer. Lawyers don't work for free. That's a fact. Chances are he was asked to speak on her behalf by the PR Firm. In any case, Meredith's DNA is on the blade of he knife. DNA testing now confirms that Knox's DNA is actually at the top of the knife handle.

Meredith's DNA on the blade was LNC DNA, and it was found in a grove on the blade of the knife. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the DNA on the handle of the knife. The defense presented an appeal argument suggesting that there is no DNA on the Knife ...only starch. It appears that the prosecution evidence was correct and Knox's DNA is on the top of the handle of the knife ... not exactly a place that someone would plant their hand unless....

Let's stop there. The defense has submitted false reports. Remember that.

 

[Cappuccino]

Meredith's DNA on the tip of the knife is a myth. Remember that.

 

[SkewedView]

If Ted Simons is Knox's lawyer, then she must have him on retainer. Lawyers don't work for free. That's a fact. Chances are he was asked to speak on her behalf by the PR Firm. In any case, Meredith's DNA is on the blade of he knife. DNA testing now confirms that Knox's DNA is actually at the top of the knife handle.

Meredith's DNA on the blade was LNC DNA, and it was found in a grove on the blade of the knife. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the DNA on the handle of the knife. The defense presented an appeal argument suggesting that there is no DNA on the Knife ...only starch. It appears that the prosecution evidence was correct and Knox's DNA is on the top of the handle of the knife ... not exactly a place that someone would plant their hand unless....

Let's stop there. The defense has submitted false reports. Remember that.

Just to correct something. There's this thing called 'pro-bono'. It entails a lawyer working for someone free of charge. Traditionally, this is done as a public service to those who cannot afford a lawyer in civil court. In criminal cases, that is the excuse as well, though the pragmatic reason in big cases is to use the case to essentially gain free advertising, in the hopes of scoring some rich clients. Not saying this is the case here, just pointing out that lawyers do, in fact, work for free on occasion.

 

[sherlockh]

Meredith's DNA on the tip of the knife is a myth. Remember that.

LOL.... Is it starch, contaminated, or a myth? Or maybe they found Meredith's DNA on the blade because the knife is the murder weapon?

Supreme Court of Cassation sentencing report in English

On the blade, invisible to the naked eye, another trace (trace B) was found, containing a small quantity of DNA attributable to only one person, namely the victim.

http://thefreelancedesk.com/wp-cont...ning-on-Amanda-Knox-Case_-English-Version.pdf

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...e#Is_the_DNA_on_the_Knife_Meredith.27s_DNA.3F
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