Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#4

[Chris_Halkides]

There will be none it seems. Some don't realize RG's dna was most likely due to an assault before Meredith was killed. Or they are avoiding it.

There is no evidence that Guede's DNA was from epithelial cells. The notion that the sexual assault preceded the attack seems to be an argument from personal incredulity.

 

[dgfred]

No. The courts found they were epithelial cells (from fingers IIRC). The sexual assault was part of the attack IMO... but not the neck stabbing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Thank you dgfred I do find the money deposits evidence as highly suspect as well. I had read about it previously on pmf but thank you for refreshing my memory.

The argument presented is thin and unconvincing (indeed there is a notable lack of documentation). Amanda had plenty of money in her accounts. Guede was known to be in possession of stolen goods in the recent past. Guede's DNA was found on Meredith's purse or handbag. Guede had money to go clubbing for two nights. IMO either he illegally boarded a train for Germany, or he paid for his trip with Meredith's money (he does not come off smelling like a rose in either scenario).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

No. The courts found they were epithelial cells (from fingers IIRC). The sexual assault was part of the attack IMO... but not the neck stabbing.

One would have to test for skin cells to draw this conclusion (IIUC much of the primary data from Guede's trials is not public). However, it is a small point, and my present view is that the DNA may have been from skin cells. It hardly matters; he is still guilty of sexual assault at the least. The putative semen stain should have been tested; if it had, we would know more.

 

[Harmony 2]

Were additional tests ever done on the Sample 199, the "presumed biological substance" and Sample 198 found on the broken window? Sample 199 tested positive for blood with TMB. Sample 198, was a 6 cm long dark brown, catagen phase hair with a few cells attached to the hair bulb.

link

Please read the following post with attachments:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - *new trial ordered* Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1

 

[dgfred]

Dodging the fact that the friend of the family posted the information I find it very thick and convincing. What RG has no relevance IMO to why AK had extra money.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rudy Guede, the experienced thief who had already escalated to burglary, escalated again to burglary armed with a knife. Then he found an attractive young woman home alone during one of his burglaries, and escalated further to rape and murder.

Rudy Guede raped and killed Meredith Kercher.

And he should have been tried and sentenced accordingly. He had smart lawyers who made use of the fast track option. However, the prosecution could have appealed the (separate) mitigation included in his sentence but did not.

 

[dgfred]

Well, didn't AK and RS have smart lawyers too?

They should have taken the Fast Track trial too. RG got the exact same amount of time as the other two would get at the Regular Trial. The time taken away is 1/3 for it being a Fast Track... not because of lawyers.

 

[Sonata]

I often wonder if AK's odd stories are a result of bad coaching from lawyers. Surely they would have advised both of them about how to answer certain questions. I feel as if the bathroom mat boogie thing and the pricking MK with a knife might have been bad legal advice. They just seem so formulated and I'd be surprised if they weren't discussed prior to the trial.

What does everyone else think about this?

Obviously this wouldn't apply to other things said in the interrogation, but I do wonder about some of the things said on the stand.

 

[dgfred]

Well, they had no control over her original statements and her email home.

The Meredith pricking story is from RS's prison diary IIRC.

RS didn't testify on the stand, and AK probably didn't really want to discuss the bathmat boogie at that point IMO. It was interesting to me the things she actually DID testify about... or should I say odd.

 

[Sonata]

Well, they had no control over her original statements and her email home.

The Meredith pricking story is from RS's prison diary IIRC.

RS didn't testify on the stand, and AK probably didn't really want to discuss the bathmat boogie at that point IMO. It was interesting to me the things she actually DID testify about... or should I say odd.

Thanks, I often forget where certain bits and pieces actually originate from!

 

[aa9511]

Well, didn't AK and RS have smart lawyers too?

They should have taken the Fast Track trial too. RG got the exact same amount of time as the other two would get at the Regular Trial. The time taken away is 1/3 for it being a Fast Track... not because of lawyers.

Well Amanda and RS, seems to me, had a lot more to lose if they admitted to the murder. As far as standing in society/amongst friends and family, their family's position in society, impact on their future careers/success, etc.. They probably had loftier goals in life than Rudy did. Rudy probably wasn't thinking, how am I going to live with a convicted felony on my record, for murder of all things? And let's be honest, no one would have believed any excuse he came up with. There was no way of getting out of it, so he didn't even try. I think it was a combination of these things that led to Fast Track, plus yes, good lawyers for making him shut up and not say something to mess it all up.

Amanda and RS could not take that. It wasn't enough for them to stay quiet, they had to actively proclaim their innocence and get their societal standing back. This makes sense. It's no okay for them for people to think they even could be involved in something like this. It's not just a matter of going to prison or being convicted, it's a matter of they cannot let people see them in that light.

 

[Sonata]

Well Amanda and RS, seems to me, had a lot more to lose if they admitted to the murder. As far as standing in society/amongst friends and family, their family's position in society, impact on their future careers/success, etc.. They probably had loftier goals in life than Rudy did. Rudy probably wasn't thinking, how am I going to live with a convicted felony on my record, for murder of all things? And let's be honest, no one would have believed any excuse he came up with. There was no way of getting out of it, so he didn't even try. I think it was a combination of these things that led to Fast Track, plus yes, good lawyers for making him shut up and not say something to mess it all up.

Amanda and RS could not take that. It wasn't enough for them to stay quiet, they had to actively proclaim their innocence and get their societal standing back. This makes sense. It's no okay for them for people to think they even could be involved in something like this. It's not just a matter of going to prison or being convicted, it's a matter of they cannot let people see them in that light.

I think that's spot on regardless of whether one believes in their guilt or innocence.

 

[aa9511]

I often wonder if AK's odd stories are a result of bad coaching from lawyers. Surely they would have advised both of them about how to answer certain questions. I feel as if the bathroom mat boogie thing and the pricking MK with a knife might have been bad legal advice. They just seem so formulated and I'd be surprised if they weren't discussed prior to the trial.

What does everyone else think about this?

Obviously this wouldn't apply to other things said in the interrogation, but I do wonder about some of the things said on the stand.

I don't think any amount of coaching would have helped. Yes, the lawyers probably advised her differently. But being on the stand, she probably got nervous and said something to try to "get out of it."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The only part I might agree with you on this is the Low Template DNA part. But there were multiple data-points of Amanda's DNA....it's stretching to say that all of them are wrong or contaminated, IMO. They collected Rudy's with the same techniques they used to collect hers - same people, same type of gloves, same techniques, same lab, etc.

And another thing is, like you said, DNA evidence is only one part of the entire picture. In trial jury instructions, they always say circumstantial evidence does not weigh less than physical evidence. One might corroborate or support the other. In this case, you have much circumstantial evidence pointing to Amanda's guilt, and the DNA/forensic evidence also backs it up and supports it.

One, the DNA evidence against Guede is for his lawyers to contest if they think it was collected, interpreted, or documented improperly. What I can say about the DNA forensics against Amanda and Raffaele is that the evidence was collected poorly in several instances, incorrectly interpreted, and undocumented. Again, the release of the electronic data files (which include the negative controls) is a near universal norm, but not in this case. Why not? If the work was done well, what are the authorities so afraid of?

Two, Guede did not live there, but Amanda did; therefore, there any DNA of Guede's found is evidence of his presence in the flat, almost certainly on 1 November (since there is no evidence that he was in the flat on any other day). Amanda's DNA is also evidence that she was in the flat, but she had a period of over a month in which to deposit it.

Three, the DNA evidence against Guede is secondary to the bloody palm print and similar in weight to the bloody shoe prints IMO. In other words it fills out the story, but it is not necessary to convict him. I have previously stated that every bit of evidence collected on 18 December should be at least taken at a discount, and this includes the evidence against Guede, on the basis that it was not collected in a timely manner (citation previously given).

Four, the lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's wrists, etc. does not help the case that they participated in the assault (such as restraining her), especially given that Meredith's sweatshirt had Guede's DNA. There is some information in the literature on DNA transfer in domestic assault that can be read for background.

Five, with respect to gloves, a failure to change gloves can lead to mixed DNA, but it cannot make DNA appear out of thin air. This is one reason among several that the mixed DNA between Amanda and Meredith is not particularly incriminating.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Dodging the fact that the friend of the family posted the information I find it very thick and convincing. What RG has no relevance IMO to why AK had extra money.

Can you document when and how much Amanda was paid at work?

 

[aa9511]

I think that's spot on regardless of whether one believes in their guilt or innocence.

Thank you, Sonata

 

[Amber29]

One, the DNA evidence against Guede is for his lawyers to contest if they think it was collected, interpreted, or documented improperly. What I can say about the DNA forensics against Amanda and Raffaele is that the evidence was collected poorly in several instances, incorrectly interpreted, and undocumented. Again, the release of the electronic data files (which include the negative controls) is a near universal norm, but not in this case. Why not? If the work was done well, what are the authorities so afraid of?

Two, Guede did not live there, but Amanda did; therefore, there any DNA of Guede's found is evidence of his presence in the flat, almost certainly on 1 November (since there is no evidence that he was in the flat on any other day). Amanda's DNA is also evidence that she was in the flat, but she had a period of over a month in which to deposit it.

Three, the DNA evidence against Guede is secondary to the bloody palm print and similar in weight to the bloody shoe prints IMO. In other words it fills out the story, but it is not necessary to convict him. I have previously stated that every bit of evidence collected on 18 December should be at least taken at a discount, and this includes the evidence against Guede, on the basis that it was not collected in a timely manner (citation previously given).

Four, the lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's wrists, etc. does not help the case that they participated in the assault (such as restraining her), especially given that Meredith's sweatshirt had Guede's DNA. There is some information in the literature on DNA transfer in domestic assault that can be read for background.

Five, with respect to gloves, a failure to change gloves can lead to mixed DNA, but it cannot make DNA appear out of thin air. This is one reason among several that the mixed DNA between Amanda and Meredith is not particularly incriminating.

Does the foresic team that handled this case still have jobs?
It seems they shouldn't if they do everything wrong when it comes to collecting evidence.

 

[dgfred]

Can you document when and how much Amanda was paid at work?

Of course not... and I don't think I have implied any inside knowledge.

I go from:

Doesn't have rent money because not paid by Patrick. She said this.

Withdraws $361.54 --- later deposits $562.00

Did not go into work again. Was never paid by Patrick.

Arrested on the evening of the 5th after accusing Patrick of the murder.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I often wonder if AK's odd stories are a result of bad coaching from lawyers. Surely they would have advised both of them about how to answer certain questions. I feel as if the bathroom mat boogie thing and the pricking MK with a knife might have been bad legal advice. They just seem so formulated and I'd be surprised if they weren't discussed prior to the trial.

Raffaele talks about touching Meredith with a knife in the women's flat in his book and says that there was no connection with his own kitchen knife. He wrote about the knife originally in his diary, and I view it as an attempt to understand a strange result. He gave the diary to his lawyer. The police took it from his lawyer, but the lawyer complained that this was a violation of attorney-client privilege. Only in the topsy-turvy world of ILE does this count against Raffaele. It should count against the credibility of the people who took it and released it.