Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#4

[redheadedgal]

Who do we think knows this case better the lawyers/judges handling it or posters on forums?

you are aware that italy is second only to turkey in number of case applications to the ECHR? that should tell about the state of italian justice.

http://ecohr.blogspot.ca/2013/05/human-rights-violations-in-turkey.html


as well, in 2012, according to a Euromedia poll only

16% percent of Italians fully trust the justice system compared to 28% two years prior. Italian civil rights groups are intense in their criticism of what they view as kangaroo courts.

http://www.onlyinitaly.com/mainarchives/051412.htm

 

[redheadedgal]

Any claim that rests on what Stefanoni says is weak by definition. She overstated the amount of DNA in 36B by a wide margin, and she failed to disclose the negative TMB tests.

and, iirc, she couldn't even store the bra clasp properly, rendering it useless for further testing.

it's illogical that anyone (judges included) would trust her testing methods and results knowing this.

 

[SMK]

What do you find puzzling it? .

It sounds not feasible. As if there was transfer.

 

[Amber29]

you are aware that italy is second only to turkey in number of case applications to the ECHR? that should tell about the state of italian justice.

http://ecohr.blogspot.ca/2013/05/human-rights-violations-in-turkey.html


as well, in 2012, according to a Euromedia poll only



http://www.onlyinitaly.com/mainarchives/051412.htm

So between 1959 and 2009 Italy had 2021 judgements against them. How many cases do you think they totaled in that timeframe? What percent of Italy's total cases end up at echr?

My question still stands. Doesn't mean it's the case here. Why is it that people who believe she's innocent think Hellmann is above all other judges that have reviewed this case? I can guess its because you agree with his decision. Well I agree with Massei and the SCC who found Hellmann to be illogical and incomplete.

 

[otto]

My question still stands. Doesn't mean it's the case here. Why is it that people who believe she's innocent think Hellmann is above all other judges that have reviewed this case? I can guess its because you agree with his decision. Well I agree with Massei and the SCC who found Hellmann to be illogical and incomplete.

Hellman's decision was annulled for good reasons. Anyone that is interested in justice would accept this.

 

[otto]

So between 1959 and 2009 Italy had 2021 judgements against them. How many cases do you think they totaled in that timeframe? What percent of Italy's total cases end up at echr?

I wonder how many cases the US would have against them if the European Convention of Human Rights was reviewing US cases ... all those lynchings, questionable interrogation methods, extreme reluctance; often a refusal, to reconsider convictions when new evidence is founds, throwing children in prison for life, capital punishment ... and so on. I suspect that we could add a zero to the number of judgements that Italy has ... easily.

 

[Sonata]

Anyone that is interested in justice would accept this.

That's simply not the case. There are plenty of examples of people being falsely convicted of serious crimes. Therefore, justice is not always limited to the decision of the courts.

This is why many of us argue with various rulings.

Conviction = Guilt is not always applicable.

I totally understand why others are convinced of their guilt, but I am trying to explain why the rest of us don't.

IMO it is not about nationality, gender, social status or anything of that sort. It is about the recognition that in any situation, the powers that be are not necessarily right. In this particular situation, there is a lot of debate and I believe this is for good reason. It does not necessarily indicate innocence, but it does indicate that the whole thing is contentious, and therefore should be looked at carefully and with an open mind.

 

[SMK]

Hellman's decision was annulled for good reasons. Anyone that is interested in justice would accept this.

Sorry to sound ignorant, but due to time constraints I was not always able to keep up on all the details of this case: Is there a document re the Florence trial as to the reasons Hellmann was annulled? (I believe I may have been linked to something like this weeks ago, but cannot recall it now :blushing: )

 

[otto]

That's simply not the case. There are plenty of examples of people being falsely convicted of serious crimes. Therefore, justice is not always limited to the decision of the courts.

This is why many of us argue with various rulings.

Conviction = Guilt is not always applicable.

I totally understand why others are convinced of their guilt, but I am trying to explain why the rest of us don't.

IMO it is not about nationality, gender, social status or anything of that sort. It is about the recognition that in any situation, the powers that be are not necessarily right. In this particular situation, there is a lot of debate and I believe this is for good reason. It does not necessarily indicate innocence, but it does indicate that the whole thing is contentious, and therefore should be looked at carefully and with an open mind.

In this particular case, the criticism started early. The police were corrupt, one of the two prosecutors was corrupt (even though both prosecutors were in agreement), all the judges are corrupt or wrong, the jury was incapable of being impartial, the Supreme court is corrupt or wrong, the DNA analsysis is wrong - but only for two of the three culprits, and the only person that is right is Hellman. Hellman is perceived as having done everything correctly even though the job he assigned to C&V was simply not done and the report they presented lacked logic.

How is it possible that everyone, from postal police to the Supreme Court, did everything wrong, but the one Judge, that didn't care if the experts actually did their job, is right. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[otto]

Sorry to sound ignorant, but due to time constraints I was not always able to keep up on all the details of this case: Is there a document re the Florence trial as to the reasons Hellmann was annulled? (I believe I may have been linked to something like this weeks ago, but cannot recall it now :blushing: )

I think Harmony linked the Supreme Court ruling on Hellman ... but don't quote me on that. It was several weeks ago and I don't have the link.

 

[Amber29]

Sorry to sound ignorant, but due to time constraints I was not always able to keep up on all the details of this case: Is there a document re the Florence trial as to the reasons Hellmann was annulled? (I believe I may have been linked to something like this weeks ago, but cannot recall it now :blushing: )

I have linked it, the SCC reasoning is here
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c..._Supreme_Court_of_Cassation_Motivation_Report

It's long but well worth the read

 

[Sonata]

In this particular case, the criticism started early. The police were corrupt, one of the two prosecutors was corrupt (even though both prosecutors were in agreement), all the judges are corrupt or wrong, the jury was incapable of being impartial, the Supreme court is corrupt or wrong, the DNA analsysis is wrong - but only for two of the three culprits, and the only person that is right is Hellman. Hellman is perceived as having done everything correctly even though the job he assigned to C&V was simply not done and the report they presented lacked logic.

How is it possible that everyone, from postal police to the Supreme Court, did everything wrong, but the one Judge, that didn't care if the experts actually did their job, is right. That doesn't make any sense.

I do understand your frustration with this. But can you not understand the perspective of the other side at all?

I think it's important for us all to keep the other side in mind and to try to understand it.

 

[Amber29]

I wonder how many cases the US would have against them if the European Convention of Human Rights was reviewing US cases ... all those lynchings, questionable interrogation methods, extreme reluctance; often a refusal, to reconsider convictions when new evidence is founds, throwing children in prison for life, capital punishment ... and so on. I suspect that we could add a zero to the number of judgements that Italy has ... easily.

While reading that article that was linked, I too wondered where America would fit if they were included.

 

[otto]

I do understand your frustration with this. But can you not understand the perspective of the other side at all?

I think it's important for us all to keep the other side in mind and to try to understand it.

What is the "other side"? ... a perspective where the entire justice system of a country is wrong and corrupt, but a Judge that doesn't actually care if his ruling is followed is doing the right thing?

 

[Sonata]

What is the "other side"? ... a perspective where the entire justice system of a country is wrong and corrupt, but a Judge that doesn't actually care if his ruling is followed is doing the right thing?

So that's a 'no' then... right, well that was productive! :floorlaugh:

 

[SMK]

I have linked it, the SCC reasoning is here
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c..._Supreme_Court_of_Cassation_Motivation_Report

It's long but well worth the read

Thanks so much, Amber- and thanks to Otto, as well.

 

[Amber29]

In this particular case, the criticism started early. The police were corrupt, one of the two prosecutors was corrupt (even though both prosecutors were in agreement), all the judges are corrupt or wrong, the jury was incapable of being impartial, the Supreme court is corrupt or wrong, the DNA analsysis is wrong - but only for two of the three culprits, and the only person that is right is Hellman. Hellman is perceived as having done everything correctly even though the job he assigned to C&V was simply not done and the report they presented lacked logic.

How is it possible that everyone, from postal police to the Supreme Court, did everything wrong, but the one Judge, that didn't care if the experts actually did their job, is right. That doesn't make any sense.

And if it was all GM that was corrupt then why has the prosecutor general followed through with the appeal. The case is not even being handled by GM at this point. I guess it's all the prosecutors that are corrupt.

 

[whoanellie]

It sounds not feasible. As if there was transfer.

What do you mean by transfer? Where do you think the "extra" DNA came from? Whose DNA do you think it is?

 

[SMK]

What do you mean by transfer? Where do you think the "extra" DNA came from? Whose DNA do you think it is?

I really cannot venture to say. It just seems that if 2-4 males in addition to Sollecito, totaling perhaps 5, had DNA left on the clasp, that it would come from investigators or people in the cottage at the crime scene. Obviously the victim had one boyfriend, and spent most of her time studying; furthermore she was known to be a clean, neat person and probably laundered the bra before each time she wore it. So that's what comes to mind. Or that it's a mistake of some kind.

 

[SMK]

I have linked it, the SCC reasoning is here
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c..._Supreme_Court_of_Cassation_Motivation_Report

It's long but well worth the read

Yes; I hadn't realized the entire argument was contained on that MMK Wiki--- I am going through it now, point by point. It really is fascinating reading, in its details and logic.