Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#4

[MichaelSmith]

It was suggested that Massei had some sort of fixation on nudity. This is untrue. It is also untrue that he was fixated on satanic ritual - per Douglas Preston. My comment emphasized the point that the judge and jury at the murder trial of Meredith Ketcher, where Knox and Sollectio were found guilty along side Guede, were not fixated on nakedness, satanic ritual or language translation. It was a fairly straight forward sexual assault involving more than one party ... like a sex game or gang rape violent sexual assault and murder with 43 injuries to the victim and no defensive wounds.

<modsnip> From around page 361 or so he starts going through his theory of the crime and what went down in the cottage. He even guesses the time of the murder around 11pm give or take a few minutes.

This is a great insight into the mind of a crackpot and fantasist because on page 365 of the PMF English translation he theorises the following:

Amanda and [391] Raffaele who were together in Amanda&#8217;s house; together in Amanda&#8217;s room and alone, since Meredith was in her own room and Rudy, as previously mentioned, was in the bathroom.
It is therefore probable that Rudy, coming out of the bathroom, let himself be carried away by a situation that he perceived as being charged with sexual stimuli and, giving in to his sexual urges, sought to satisfy them by going into Meredith&#8217;s room, where she was alone with the door at least partly open

He then goes onto say Amanda & Raffaele heard him getting it on with Meredith and decided to assist the virtual stranger who'd just knocked on the door and used the toilet in a sexual assault.

Then of course he left and they somehow correctly guessed his 2nd story window breaking with a rock MO and staged the crime scene looking awfully similar to burglary he's linked to just a week or two earlier.

:needdrink:

 

[Amber29]

but it's okay for some to "start comparing judges reasonings"?

Yes it is because at the point were at in the trial it's what SCC said that matters not Hellmann. You do understand that SCC tore apart Hellmann's reasonings and has basically said Nencini can't use the same excuses to disregard evidence as Hellmann did?

 

[Amber29]

<modsnip> From around page 361 or so he starts going through his theory of the crime and what went down in the cottage. He even guesses the time of the murder around 11pm give or take a few minutes.

This is a great insight into the mind of a crackpot and fantasist because on page 365 of the PMF English translation he theorises the following:



He then goes onto say Amanda & Raffaele heard him getting it on with Meredith and decided to assist the virtual stranger who'd just knocked on the door and used the toilet in a sexual assault.

Then of course he left and they somehow correctly guessed his 2nd story window breaking with a rock MO and staged the crime scene looking awfully similar to burglary he's linked to just a week or two earlier.

:needdrink:

So Massei took from the prosecutors theory and the defenses theory and put them together. The way he interpreted the evidence is what matters. Do you not think juries typically go over how things could've happened in their minds after listening to the evidence? It would be interesting if every jury in trials had to put together a "reasoning" of how they reached a verdict. I'm sure we'd all be blown away.

 

[MichaelSmith]

So Massei took from the prosecutors theory and the defenses theory and put them together. The way he interpreted the evidence is what matters. Do you not think juries typically go over how things could've happened in their minds after listening to the evidence? It would be interesting if every jury in trials had to put together a "reasoning" of how they reached a verdict. I'm sure we'd all be blown away.

Can you cite the transcript page numbers where that happened and where the defence ever suggested it and why you think that plz? I'd be interested in seeing it.

At no point did Mignini suggest nor present evidence AK&RS were in Amanda's bedroom having sex when Guede knocked on the door, used the toilet and then got turned on as he finished without flushing let alone prove that and no where I've read have I seen the defence even suggest such a fantasy.

Do you believe that's what happened?

I think Rudy broke into the cottage and was sitting on the toilet when Meredith walked in the door and he attacked her violently within minutes.

 

[Amber29]

Can you cite the transcript page numbers where that happened and where the defence ever suggested it and why you think that plz? I'd be interested in seeing it.

At no point did Mignini suggest nor present evidence AK&RS were in Amanda's bedroom having sex when Guede knocked on the door, used the toilet and then got turned on as he finished without flushing let alone prove that and no where I've read have I seen the defence even suggest such a fantasy.

Do you believe that's what happened?

I think Rudy broke into the cottage and was sitting on the toilet when Meredith walked in the door and he attacked her violently within minutes.

So theory was the wrong word for the defense. Mignini did not suggest what Massei concluded but it was the defense/defendants who claimed they spent the night smoking pot and having sex.

I have previously shared what I believe happened. You disagree and that's fine. I believe that none of them have clear memory of what actually happened due to the drug usage that night. I also don't mind Massei coming up with what he thinks happened based on the evidence. You disagree with him and I disagree with Hellmann. We will have to wait and see what Nencini comes up with now won't we.

 

[SMK]

Sex theory? Nudity forced the sex theory? The only person that introduced nakedness into the proceedings was Knox with her ... I boogied down the hallway stark naked knowing that the front door was wide open when I came home. Was she thinking: "I didn't care because I like being naked?" What are we to accept from a woman that does this? Amelie? I don't think so.

Lizzie Borden was given a quiet walk into no man's land after her murders. She died in that vast emptiness. She did not protest.

The theory of the crime is that there was a violent sexual assault. Apparently, in translation, a "gang rape" comes down to group sexual violence and assault, like a game ... gotta avoid those "machine" translations! Anyone that speaks a second language knows better than to accept a computer tranlation of a foreign language. It just doesn't work right. Anyway, Satanic killing comes from Douglas Preston, who has his own beef with the prosecutor (he was run out of town for interfering with a murder investigation). Preston reinforced the sex game, satanic ritual theory because he had his own agenda ... and for the record, many people that now believe Knox is an honest woman, also believed Preston's opinion of one of the prosecutors.

The murder of Meredith Kercher was more like a gang rape. Guede admits that more than one person was involved - he has even identified his fellow culprits. This was not a "sex game", but there was a violent sexual assault. There is clearly a langauge barrier when "gang rape" translates to "sex game". Meredith was attacted by multiple assailant (Supreme Court ruling) and she suffered 43 injuries with virtually no defensive wounds. How is that possible?

Yes, OK, I understand. An assault, not a game. Believable in a certain context. I don't particularly like the scenario of Knox and Sollecito making love, (why would they be there, and not at Sollecito's apartment?) and Rudy getting turned on by this, and him attacking MK, and the 2 joining in. It doesn't scan, as they say. Not without some background context: No pre-meditation, no argument, no escalation, no simmering anger - just a sudden turn - on.

 

[SMK]

This doesn't mention anything about how Knox was dressed:

A young medical student from Serbia, Jovana Popovitch, testified that she had seen Knox at Sollecito's home the night Kercher was murdered.

She told jurors today that she had asked Sollecito, a good friend, if he could drive her to the station on the night of Nov. 1 to pick up a package that was arriving by bus from Milan. She later found out that the package had not been shipped, so she went by Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed the ride.

"Amanda Knox came to the door," Popovitch testified, "but I did not see Raffaele." She said that Sollecito was always smiling and helpful. Knox she described as "always cheerful, and very open."

Popovitch, who was the first witness of the day, smiled at Knox and Sollecito when she entered the courtroom. Both defendants have attended every hearing in the trial so far. Today, Chris Mellas, Knox's stepfather, also attended proceedings.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7140361&page=2

 

[Amber29]

This doesn't mention anything about how Knox was dressed:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7140361&page=2

So who was it that testified to what amanda Knox was wearing the day before that matches the clothes on the bed? Amanda herself?
As far as I know we can't put a date to clothes that are on the bed.

 

[SMK]

So who was it that testified to what amanda Knox was wearing the day before that matches the clothes on the bed? Amanda herself?
As far as I know we can't put a date to clothes that are on the bed.

I know. I looked up Jovan Popovic's statement in the Massei report, (p.9) but unless I missed it, could not find any description in what Knox was wearing; nor in any other articles Googled about that witness (Popvic, who came around 8:40 pm , as the suitcase had not arrived; hence, she needed to communicate to Sollecito that she would need no ride).

 

[Myvice]

Yes, OK, I understand. An assault, not a game. Believable in a certain context. I don't particularly like the scenario of Knox and Sollecito making love, (why would they be there, and not at Sollecito's apartment?) and Rudy getting turned on by this, and him attacking MK, and the 2 joining in. It doesn't scan, as they say. Not without some background context: No pre-meditation, no argument, no escalation, no simmering anger - just a sudden turn - on.

Sollecito's apartment had plumbing problems.

I believe I read that Guede stated he thought Amanda was attractive. Perhaps there was some interest in a 4 way and when Merideth was disgusted by the idea the other 3 were angered by her prudish holier than thou attitude. Amanda had met Guede more times than she had met Sollecito before she started sleeping with him. The idea that she didn't know him doesn't wash with me. Amanda didn't have that much time in Italy so why not live out all your fantasies while away from the eyes of those who may judge you in the future. She was obviously concerned about what other people thought of her or she wouldn't have written the email home to explain away her involvement in the murder. Unless, of course, it was written solely for the police. JMO

 

[Harmony 2]

This reminder lands randomly...

When posting please adhere to the following guidelines:

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[SMK]

Sollecito's apartment had plumbing problems.

I believe I read that Guede stated he thought Amanda was attractive. Perhaps there was some interest in a 4 way and when Merideth was disgusted by the idea the other 3 were angered by her prudish holier than thou attitude. Amanda had met Guede more times than she had met Sollecito before she started sleeping with him. The idea that she didn't know him doesn't wash with me. Amanda didn't have that much time in Italy so why not live out all your fantasies while away from the eyes of those who may judge you in the future. She was obviously concerned about what other people thought of her or she wouldn't have written the email home to explain away her involvement in the murder. Unless, of course, it was written solely for the police. JMO

Maybe so. Of course she would not want it believed that she was involved with murder. (and she may have been committing a story to print and memory in the email as well).

As far as a 4-way, they would have to have had a very poor grasp of what kind of person Kercher was, to be angered at a refusal. Within this theory, someone would have had to have told them false information concerning her, which I suppose is possible. Or they misudnerstood something she had said jokingly. Otherwise, they would know they would be facing sexual assault charges.

 

[SMK]

So who was it that testified to what amanda Knox was wearing the day before that matches the clothes on the bed? Amanda herself?
As far as I know we can't put a date to clothes that are on the bed.

Yes, it may have been Knox herself, and if guilty, would have had a reason for saying they were the same clothes (as on the bed).

Of course they may have been, as why were they folded on the bed? And why did it take so long to discover them? The police usually demand your clothes and shoes immediately after a murder in which they wonder if you had involvement....

But there may in fact be no testimony regarding what Amanda had been wearing that night....

 

[Myvice]

Maybe so. Of course she would not want it believed that she was involved with murder. As far as a 4-way, they would have to have had a very poor grasp of what kind of person Kercher was, to be angered at a refusal. Within this theory, someone would have had to have told them false information concerning her, which I suppose is possible. Otherwise, they would know they would be facing sexual assault charges.

I see your point but I've seen people that were drunk or high that try to get a sober person to loosen up and join in the fun. How drunk or high do you have to be before you have no memories of events? Would you be thinking about consequences if you thought the other person would enjoy themselves once they just allowed themselves to go with it? Just a thought.

I appreciate your stance on here. You stimulate thought by asking questions instead of pushing a particular theory. Thanks

 

[Footwarrior]

Yes, it may have been Knox herself, and if guilty, would have had a reason for saying they were the same clothes (as on the bed). Of course they may have been, as why were they folded on the bed? And why did it take so long to discover them? The police usually demand your clothes and shoes immediately after a murder in which they wonder if you had involvement....But there may in fact be no testimony regarding what Amanda had been wearing that night....

The argument that Amanda had disposed of the clothes she was seen wearing the night of the murder was debunked long before the trial ever started. The evidence disproving it was in the crime scene photos available to both the prosecution and defense. Since it was not an issue, there would be no testimony at trail on this matter.

It's similar to the argument about Raffaele's shoes matching the shoe print found in blood next to the victim. That claim was used by the prosecution as a reason to hold Raffaele in jail. The defense proved that the print didn't match by simply counting the rings in the patten. That a law enforcement shoe print expert made a mistake that bad is rather troubling.

 

[SMK]

I see your point but I've seen people that were drunk or high that try to get a sober person to loosen up and join in the fun. How drunk or high do you have to be before you have no memories of events? Would you be thinking about consequences if you thought the other person would enjoy themselves once they just allowed themselves to go with it? Just a thought.

I appreciate your stance on here. You stimulate thought by asking questions instead of pushing a particular theory. Thanks

Yes, I see your point. And thank you for your kind words, very much.

 

[Amber29]

The argument that Amanda had disposed of the clothes she was seen wearing the night of the murder was debunked long before the trial ever started. The evidence disproving it was in the crime scene photos available to both the prosecution and defense. Since it was not an issue, there would be no testimony at trail on this matter.

It's similar to the argument about Raffaele's shoes matching the shoe print found in blood next to the victim. That claim was used by the prosecution as a reason to hold Raffaele in jail. The defense proved that the print didn't match by simply counting the rings in the patten. That a law enforcement shoe print expert made a mistake that bad is rather troubling.

Who saw her wearing the clothes the night of the murder?

 

[Footwarrior]

Who saw her wearing the clothes the night of the murder?

Jovana Popovic.

 

[Myvice]

Who saw her wearing the clothes the night of the murder?

I wouldn't think it would matter much since she was home and had access to all of her clothes.

 

[Myvice]

Just a thought but I wonder if Amanda would have been jealous that Rafaelle was going to help Jovana that night. It seems a little odd that she answered the door at his house. Was she trying to send a message to Jovana that she was lady of the house? Would she have wanted to later send a message to Rafaelle that Guede was interested in her? All speculation of course...