Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

[otto]

Oddly and though I can find plenty of layout maps, I can't find the exact dimensions. Based on Hendry's pictures, I'd guess 10x12" or so: not the smallest room I've ever lived in, but since it also served as MK's workspace and closet, the empty floorspace was minimal. (And we know from the layouts that it was 50% or so larger than AK's room, the latter often described as "very small".)

But in any event, it no longer matters: posts since the one to which I was responding have shown that what AK was told and repeated was that MK was found "in the wardrobe". And we both know that was false.

It looks like a good sized bedroom. Meredith was murdered next to the closet. Her body was later moved.

 

[redheadedgal]

Interesting that it takes her two years to thank her supporters. Did she forget about them until she needed them again?

october 4th, 2011 @ perugia: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amanda-knox-thanks-supporters-heads-for-home/

Amanda Knox on Tuesday thanked those Italians who supported her throughout her four years of prison, a day after an appeals court cleared the young American of murdering her British roommate and freed her to return home to the United States.

The freed American thanked those "who shared my suffering and helped me survive with hope," in a letter to the foundation, which seeks to promote ties between Italy and the United States.

"Those who wrote, those who defended me, those who were close, those who prayed for me," Knox wrote. "I love you, Amanda."

october 5th, 2011 @ seattle: http://news.sky.com/story/889139/overwhelmed-amanda-knox-arrives-home-in-us

"I'm really overwhelmed right now," the American said. "I was looking down from the airplane and it seemed like everything wasn't real.

"What's important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who has believed in me, who has defended me, who has supported my family.

"My family is the most important thing to me right now and I just want to go and be with them, so thank you for being there for me."

 

[Amber29]

Oh, I agree with that. I was proposing those alternative scenarios as ones that could have happened.

As I mentioned, the reasonable doubt situation presents by the defense is situation number 1 - RG was sole perp and they are factually innocent. The lack of DNA supports this view. The jury could believe AK is factually innocent but they need not.

An alternative view is that the jury can decide they just do not know what happened. I was devising some examples of what could have happened but the jury need not delve into that. They would just need to decide that the prosecution did not prove that murder happened by the defendants. If they are left hanging on what really went on, as far as whether AK and RS were involved in a murder (not in lying), they have to acquit. Without even being able to put AK and RS in that murder, how can they prove that RG was not the sole stabber? They have to get both RS and AK not only in the room but both of them stabbing, three separate people stabbing the same person. I have never heard any case where you had 3 people - 2 complete strangers - stabbing another person all at once. The jury has to believe that is the only reasonable scenario based on the evidence.

Quite simply, the prosecution needs to debunk the argument that RG was the sole perp. Given his DNA is all over, and the other defendants are not, that is a tall order.

The SCC has made it definate in RGs conviction that he acted with others. It has also been made definate that the break in was simulated.
The defense can not argue these because they are considered definate.

Or I guess the defense can argue but the judges in their reasoning can not use RG as lone wolf or that RG broke in through that window to reach an acquittal.

IIUC

 

[Yellow]

I was just wondering about that, if she is convicted (or loses the appeal or however the result becomes guilty), will the US allow her to be extradited?

IMO, amanda will never be extradited. People should go to the comment pages of any American mainstream media website on the story today of the prosecution's argument. 95% is in AK's favor. Of course, many people base their opinion on the favorable media view of her, but many people are like myself and some other posters who do know the facts and still believe in her innocence.

Any extradition would probably be after the ECHR and SC ruling probably so it is probably a few years off. But I think if and when the time came for extradiction, it will be a huge media story with the American media (and public largely) strongly on AK's side. Hopefully it will not come to that but I am not sure if US will extradite. Italy got mad at us bc we refused to extradite US serviceman involved in a gondola incident. In any event, given congresspeople have advocated on AK's behalf, any decision on her extradiction will be made at the highest levels I assume bc of the media involvement in this case. US is not going to extradite to a country that does not follow intl DNA standards; maybe for a circumstantial case they will but not one based on bad DNA. Maybe they would work a deal for her to serve in the US.

 

[geevee]

IMO, amanda will never be extradited. People should go to the comment pages of any American mainstream media website on the story today of the prosecution's argument. 95% is in AK's favor. Of course, many people base their opinion on the favorable media view of her, but many people are like myself and some other posters who do know the facts and still believe in her innocence.

Any extradition would probably be after the ECHR and SC ruling probably so it is probably a few years off. But I think if and when the time came for extradiction, it will be a huge media story with the American media (and public largely) strongly on AK's side. Hopefully it will not come to that but I am not sure if US will extradite. Italy got mad at us bc we refused to extradite US serviceman involved in a gondola incident. In any event, given congresspeople have advocated on AK's behalf, any decision on her extradiction will be made at the highest levels I assume bc of the media involvement in this case. US is not going to extradite to a country that does not follow intl DNA standards; maybe for a circumstantial case they will but not one based on bad DNA. Maybe they would work a deal for her to serve in the US.

Thanks much, appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Yellow]

The SCC has made it definate in RGs conviction that he acted with others. It has also been made definate that the break in was simulated.
The defense can not argue these because they are considered definate.

Or I guess the defense can argue but the judges in their reasoning can not use RG as lone wolf or that RG broke in through that window to reach an acquittal.

IIUC

In the US, evidence in a totally separate trial could not be admitted in another trial. For instance, suppose Suspect A has his trial, has evidence. In Suspect B's trial, any evidence in Suspect A trial would need to be reintroduced and you would need to give Suspect B lawyers a chance to cross examine. He would not have had an opportunity to challenge the evidence in Suspect A trial since he was not a party.

it is a basic principle of the 6th amendment to confront your accusers. You cannot just go admitting things as true things that happened in other trials.

Is Italy different? If so all the more reason US will never extradite or ECHR will intervene

 

[Yellow]

Personally, IMO, I think AK case is very personal to some in the Italian system. Careers were made or will be tarnished on how this turns out. Many journalists (one in particular on the pro guilt side) had their careers made on this case and have an interest in the outcome.

I would not be surprised if they get their guilty verdict yet never *really* try to extradite or fight the US too much. That way, they get what they want and they can complain the US will not extradite, while at the same time they do not go so far as to imprison an innocent person or at least a possibly innocent person.

Really, if RS is this homicial maniac who goes around stabbing innocent girls who refuse to play sex games with him, why does not Italy put him immediately in jail? Or why not make a big stink about AK wondering around Seattle?

 

[Amber29]

In the US, evidence in a totally separate trial could not be admitted in another trial. For instance, suppose Suspect A has his trial, has evidence. In Suspect B's trial, any evidence in Suspect A trial would need to be reintroduced and you would need to give Suspect B lawyers a chance to cross examine. He would not have had an opportunity to challenge the evidence in Suspect A trial since he was not a party.

it is a basic principle of the 6th amendment to confront your accusers. You cannot just go admitting things as true things that happened in other trials.

Is Italy different? If so all the more reason US will never extradite or ECHR will intervene

Yes Italy is different. You can read about this in the SCC reasoning.
Page 62 covers the simulated break in
Page 73 covers the failure to evaluate RGs final judgement

I don't understand you thinking this is more reason the US won't extradite. The crime wasn't committed in the US, so what her rights would be in a court here doesn't matter. I also doubt this is reason for the ECHR to intervene. Have you ever thought that the US are the "different" ones and a lot of European countries share similarities in the way they run their justice system? Like for instance it's quite the norm for prosecutors to be able to appeal, even though we find it odd and want to call it double jeopardy.

 

[redheadedgal]

thank you for the correction about the sidewalk...

but, it still begs the question, why evidence of RG is needed in the mud/on the wall/in that bedroom, when no evidence of AK is not seen as problematic re: MK's bedroom?

the quote from mignini is exactly where i stated it was: p. 5 @ books.google.com

 

[Amber29]

thank you for the correction about the sidewalk...

but, it still begs the question, why evidence of RG is needed in the mud/on the wall/in that bedroom, when no evidence of AK is not seen as problematic re: MK's bedroom?

the quote from mignini is exactly where i stated it was: p. 5 @ books.google.com

Ok sorry I cannot find it as I am holding the book in my hand but no worries.

 

[Yellow]

Yes Italy is different. You can read about this in the SCC reasoning.
Page 62 covers the simulated break in
Page 73 covers the failure to evaluate RGs final judgement

I don't understand you thinking this is more reason the US won't extradite. The crime wasn't committed in the US, so what her rights would be in a court here doesn't matter. I also doubt this is reason for the ECHR to intervene. Have you ever thought that the US are the "different" ones and a lot of European countries share similarities in the way they run their justice system? Like for instance it's quite the norm for prosecutors to be able to appeal, even though we find it odd and want to call it double jeopardy.

US will not extradite in a case where they think an American's constitutional rights were violated. I don't buy the double jeopardy argument ( I don't think this violates DJ), but I still think there are multiple instances in which AK constitutional rights were violated as in this instance of the RG evidence being used against her Without her right to cross examine (if true),the fact of the coerced confession was used in the trial against Patrick so it would be impossible for the jury not to consider it in her murder case, and the faulty DNA evidence.

Actually I think that is all part of our extradition treaty with Italy. We have a way out not to extradite,

ECHR also could rule on similar grounds if greater human rights were violated in the process. That is why the Italians would be wise to make this a circumstantial case rather than mess w the DNA or confession evidence which provides her strongest argument for appeal.

A country does not have to extradite, for instances Mexico says it violates their principles to extradite to the US for someone to face the death penalty. The US similarly would not have to extradite if her constitutional rights were violated, and here, I see at least 5th and 6th amendment violations. It would be like a court relying on a lie detector as evidence- the scientific community and US principles says that violates rights and so the US probably would not extradite to such a country.

If Italy wants to establish itself as the country that uses DNA tests the rest of Europe - and the world - discredits then this verdict will likely get overturned on appeal if they use that as a basis for their ruling.

Plus, the media campaign..., people forgot how pro Amanda the American media is. This will be a huge story if it ever comes to it.

Indeed, I read an article that I guess the prosecutor did not even mention the dirty bra clasp today. If that is true they are already distancing themselves from the bad DNA evidence bc they know this case will get thrown out if they rely heavily on it IMO. Daily beast reported that today, that they are distancing themselves from the bra.

 

[Yellow]

Yes Italy is different. You can read about this in the SCC reasoning.
Page 62 covers the simulated break in
Page 73 covers the failure to evaluate RGs final judgement

I don't understand you thinking this is more reason the US won't extradite. The crime wasn't committed in the US, so what her rights would be in a court here doesn't matter. I also doubt this is reason for the ECHR to intervene. Have you ever thought that the US are the "different" ones and a lot of European countries share similarities in the way they run their justice system? Like for instance it's quite the norm for prosecutors to be able to appeal, even though we find it odd and want to call it double jeopardy.

So it is not really true that it is "definite" that the SC says there are 3 murderers as one poster says. It is just that they wanted the appellate court to evaluate RG's judgement

Bc frankly it makes no sense how evidence in another case can be used against you without you being able to do anything about it. No way US would ever extradite if that is the case

And Italy knows this, if they are already distancing themselves from the DNA, they would be wise to distance themselves from all these other issues that raise constitutional issues. I mean, they clam their circumstantial case is sooo strong, why risk it being overturned in appeal if you raise issues you don't really need? (I of course disagree - I think they need the DNA to convict here bc they got nothing else).

 

[Amber29]

I did find this quote in Angel Face. In earlier posts it was asserted that the police or prosecutors released Amanda's prison diaries.

Page 96 Angel Face

"At the same time that the Knox family was painting Mignini as a vindictive lunatic, it was flooding the web with pictures of "honor student" amanda playing soccer and holding babies. Unfortunately, those were undermined by Amanda's behavior in Cappanne prison outside Perugia. In the weeks after her arrest, she wrote a diary that would provide even more fodder for the press. Certain favorable pages of the diary were leaked by Amandas defense lawyer, but that simply tipped reporters to its existence, and the entire thing was part of the official 10,000-page case dossier- the holy grail that every journalist wanted on his or her hard dirive"

So it was actually Amanda's own lawyers that started releasing her journal entries.

 

[Yellow]

I would also suspect that RS was in whatever country has an extradition treaty w Italy that has a proviso like the US one does that they will not extradite if it violates the host country's constitutional rights. He was in the Caribbean before, but maybe one of those little countries has such an agreement.

Of course extradition is more complicated for RS but we see if all the time for US citizens in Mexico so I think for some countries it may not matter he is an Italian citizen.

 

[Yellow]

I did find this quote in Angel Face. In earlier posts it was asserted that the police or prosecutors released Amanda's prison diaries.

Page 96 Angel Face

"At the same time that the Knox family was painting Mignini as a vindictive lunatic, it was flooding the web with pictures of "honor student" amanda playing soccer and holding babies. Unfortunately, those were undermined by Amanda's behavior in Cappanne prison outside Perugia. In the weeks after her arrest, she wrote a diary that would provide even more fodder for the press. Certain favorable pages of the diary were leaked by Amandas defense lawyer, but that simply tipped reporters to its existence, and the entire thing was part of the official 10,000-page case dossier- the holy grail that every journalist wanted on his or her hard dirive"

So it was actually Amanda's own lawyers that started releasing her journal entries.

I don't think we can count as fact alot of these journalists as all of them were in cohorts with one side or the other, this one in particular being pro guilty and even today, some posters on this board disputed her characterization of today's events

 

[Amber29]

US will not extradite in a case where they think an American's constitutional rights were violated. I don't buy the double jeopardy argument ( I don't think this violates DJ), but I still think there are multiple instances in which AK constitutional rights were violated as in this instance of the RG evidence being used against her Without her right to cross examine (if true),the fact of the coerced confession was used in the trial against Patrick so it would be impossible for the jury not to consider it in her murder case, and the faulty DNA evidence.

Actually I think that is all part of our extradition treaty with Italy. We have a way out not to extradite,

ECHR also could rule on similar grounds if greater human rights were violated in the process. That is why the Italians would be wise to make this a circumstantial case rather than mess w the DNA or confession evidence which provides her strongest argument for appeal.

A country does not have to extradite, for instances Mexico says it violates their principles to extradite to the US for someone to face the death penalty. The US similarly would not have to extradite if her constitutional rights were violated, and here, I see at least 5th and 6th amendment violations. It would be like a court relying on a lie detector as evidence- the scientific community and US principles says that violates rights and so the US probably would not extradite to such a country.

If Italy wants to establish itself as the country that uses DNA tests the rest of Europe - and the world - discredits then this verdict will likely get overturned on appeal if they use that as a basis for their ruling.

Plus, the media campaign..., people forgot how pro Amanda the American media is. This will be a huge story if it ever comes to it.

Indeed, I read an article that I guess the prosecutor did not even mention the dirty bra clasp today. If that is true they are already distancing themselves from the bad DNA evidence bc they know this case will get thrown out if they rely heavily on it IMO. Daily beast reported that today, that they are distancing themselves from the bra.

BBM
I don't think the prosecutor finished today. I thought he had 16points to cover and only made it through 9. So maybe we should hold off thoughts until he's done.

 

[Yellow]

thank you for the correction about the sidewalk...

but, it still begs the question, why evidence of RG is needed in the mud/on the wall/in that bedroom, when no evidence of AK is not seen as problematic re: MK's bedroom?

the quote from mignini is exactly where i stated it was: p. 5 @ books.google.com

Yeah,I agreed there is tons of evidence against RG who I might add had no place being there at all. Any more evidence would just be cumulative of his guilt. Moreover, why would it matter that RG was in the bathroom if you already did not prove the main point that he was in the murder room?

W AK and RS, there is no evidence at all of them in that room stabbing someone. You would have to imagine the horrifying scenario of three people all stabbing yet only one has the misfortune of leaving any evidence

Their DNA should have been in that room. And MK blood should have been all over that knife.

 

[Amber29]

I don't think we can count as fact alot of these journalists as all of them were in cohorts with one side or the other, this one in particular being pro guilty and even today, some posters on this board disputed her characterization of today's events

And CD is quoted repeatedly and her book is quoted from all the time. I feel the same about her, except she is clearly pro innocence.

 

[Yellow]

BBM
I don't think the prosecutor finished today. I thought he had 16points to cover and only made it through 9. So maybe we should hold off thoughts until he's done.

I am just reporting what the same journalist you cited earlier about the journals in this thread as stating today. She claimed in a MSM article that the prosecution is distancing themselves from the bra and she also claimed that the prosecution may be seeking to have only AK guilty not RS.

May not be true but just goes to show we cannot state as fact what these so-called journalists are saying. The statement I cite was at least in a MSM article as opposed to her book (which was the source of the earlier cite).

 

[redheadedgal]

Ok sorry I cannot find it as I am holding the book in my hand but no worries.

sorry amber... it's the book by nina burleigh: the fatal gift of beauty. i got the initials mixed up lol

the site won't let me copy/paste.

search at google books