Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

[geevee]

Yes, all of that makes sense, thanks. And yes, I see that Meredith might have suggested or demanded that someone come and flush after themselves.

Unfortunately we don't know at what point he used the bathroom.

 

[aa9511]

It sounds like another excuse to explain something suspecious about Knox. She reported that Meredith screamed, that more than one person was present during the murder, that Meredith was murdered near the closet, that Meredith bled to death and she knew that Meredith had been sexually assaulted.

In order to explain all of this very suspicious knowledge, we have:

• Meredith murdered near closet: Knox said "in", not "near" ... seriously? ... in the closet?
• Meredith bled to death: Luca told this to Knox even though he could not have known this
• More than one person was present during the murder: good guess?
• Meredith was sexually assaulted: Knox simply knew because she knows these things, she doesn't need to wait for the autopsy report to be released
• Meredith screamed: of course Knox knew this, every woman screams when she is raped during a non-burglary or burglary

You forgot, the Black man did it.

 

[otto]

Someone (I think Chris_H), posted that some autopsy reports were leaked before her statement. IDK, it sure sounds fishy to me, though.

There are so many things wrong with her statements and what she says in them.

Speculation that autopsy results were leaked and that Knox had this information on November 5, a full three days before the report was deposited at the court, is simply not believable.

Speculation that Knox knew that Meredith "f-ing bled to death" before the autopsy was released is absurd. No one could have known that Meredith slowly bled to death unless he or she participated in the murder.

"From reading the first summary of Dr Lalli's report, deposited at the court on November 8 2007, after the autopsy on the corpse of Meredith Kercher, it emerges that the wound had not hit the carotide artery so the death was preceded by a relatively slow agony," (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568860/Meredith-Kercher-murder-Judges-report.html )

Everything that implicates Knox, whether it's her blood mixed with the victim's blood, her bloody footprints on the pillow and in the hallway, her mixed DNA with the victim's blood in Filomina's bedroom, her prior knowledge of critical facts of the murder, her phone call to her mom prior to the discovery of the body, her bizarre behavior, her changing alibi, her false accusations of murder ... it's all excused. I suspect that each and every time that Knox got herself into trouble throughout her life, someone made an excuse for her. That is exactly how she got to the place that she did where she is involved in a murder ... not a murder at home, but a murder in a backwards "medieval" village where the corrupt justice system is overrun by incompetent, vindictive people.

 

[SMK]

Unfortunately we don't know at what point he used the bathroom.

No, it can only be conjectured or inferred.

 

[otto]

Unfortunately we don't know at what point he used the bathroom.

Guede did not track blood into the large bathroom, and he did have blood on his shoes after the murder, so he used the bathroom prior to the murder.

 

[geevee]

Well, it was ruled that one killer could not have inflicted the various 43 wounds alone. With Arias, she was able to immobilize TA in the shower and then chase him and knife him when he was injured.

At first they didn't think JA acted alone either (and not because of the ninja story).

Why couldn't RG have immobilized her on the bed, holding both of her wrists in one of his hands and the other over her mouth - possibly not attempting to use the knife until he lost control of her? Or pinning her with his knees on her arms, then both hands are free. If two others were there I'd think there would be a bigger mess, maybe things knocked over, it's not a huge room if 4 adults are in it with all the furniture.

Now that I think about it, the bloody footprint on the bath mat, maybe that was when RG used the restroom, after the attack and before he left?

 

[otto]

Well, it was ruled that one killer could not have inflicted the various 43 wounds alone. With Arias, she was able to immobilize TA in the shower and then chase him and knife him when he was injured.

Didn't she lure him to the bathtub to take photos and then attack him with a knife while he was extremely vulnerable? I thought she started with a fun photo shoot, then stabbed him and as he tried to get out of the bathtub and run, she stabbed him in the back while he paused at the sink. It seems he then collapsed and she attacked him as he crawled down the hallway. Didn't he also have cuts on his hands?

This was quite different. Meredith would not have made herself vulnerable to an attack. People that are attacked with a knife will hold the knife blade with their hands to prevent an attack to the face and neck. Meredith was unable to do anything to protect herself from the knife ... no attempt to grab the knife and protect herself.

 

[aa9511]

Under that theory, JA couldn't have done it alone either. LOL

I'm not trying to annoy you aa, we're buds, but I think RG certainly could have done it alone, and the more I read, the more I think he did do it alone.

I don't know AK or her typical behavior, but smoking hash was mentioned, which is a lot stronger than regular pot, and if that is what they smoked that night, and she isn't a constant toker then I can see the disorientation about what they did in his apt. when stoned to the gills. I don't think, in that condition, either she nor RS could have been in the room and not left dna everywhere, esp. on the body if they were all holding her down.

Hiya geevee!

I've thought about the Arias case as well. But the difference is, in that Travis was trying to run away from Jodi. Jodi didn't have him pinned down and stabbing him. And even then, even with him running away, he did have defensive wounds on him. Very obvious ones. Remember his hands? Large cuts? Bruises on his legs, etc.. It was very obvious there was a struggle. He first defended himself, and then tried to get away.

But what about the two knives? Like they said in the report, that means Rudy would have had to set one knife down, then picked up the other, it just doesn't make sense. Also I have a real problem with the no defensive wounds. So Rudy obviously needs 1 hand to hold the knife in. That leaves only 1 hand free on Rudy. Let's say, with 1 hand he is able to somehow hold both of Meredith's hands together so she can't use her hands. That leaves her feet open. She would have been kicking. There was also Meredith's hair in clumps on the floor....if Rudy was holding her by the hair to restrain her, that would leave both Meredith's arms and legs free. I just don't see how it's possible with only Rudy. If her hands were at any point free, they would have defensive cuts on them like Travis' did, from trying to shield herself from the knife.

I suppose he could have sat on top of her legs and pinned her down with his legs, then used one of his hands to hold her two hands together. I don't know how possible that is or how much strength he would have needed to do that. And that doesn't explain her hair clumps on the floor. That also doesn't explain how or why there were 2 knives involved.

Then there is the issue of the window staging. IMO, there is no way he could have gone though that window (let's assume he was somehow able to climb up to the window, though I find that improbable), without leaving signs that he went through that window. I just don't find it believable at all. There would have been no question as to whether it was a staged window or not. Climbing all the way up from the first window, I don't believe he could have done it by using his hands and then pulling one foot up on the window ledge. I believe he would have had to pull up with his hands and kind of lunge through the window. And then the glass on top of the clothes.

It just doesn't fit. Nothing fits or makes sense!

 

[otto]

At first they didn't think JA acted alone either (and not because of the ninja story).

Why couldn't RG have immobilized her on the bed, holding both of her wrists in one of his hands and the other over her mouth - possibly not attempting to use the knife until he lost control of her? Or pinning her with his knees on her arms, then both hands are free. If two others were there I'd think there would be a bigger mess, maybe things knocked over, it's not a huge room if 4 adults are in it with all the furniture.

Now that I think about it, the bloody footprint on the bath mat, maybe that was when RG used the restroom, after the attack and before he left?

There is no evidence that Guede was barefoot. The bloody bare foot print on the bath mat is in the small bathroom next to Meredith's bedroom. The unflushed toilet is next to the living room/kitchen area.

 

[otto]

Hiya geevee!

I've thought about the Arias case as well. But the difference is, in that Travis was trying to run away from Jodi. Jodi didn't have him pinned down and stabbing him. And even then, even with him running away, he did have defensive wounds on him. Very obvious ones. Remember his hands? Large cuts? Bruises on his legs, etc.. It was very obvious there was a struggle. He first defended himself, and then tried to get away.

But what about the two knives? Like they said in the report, that means Rudy would have had to set one knife down, then picked up the other, it just doesn't make sense. Also I have a real problem with the no defensive wounds. So Rudy obviously needs 1 hand to hold the knife in. That leaves only 1 hand free on Rudy. Let's say, with 1 hand he is able to somehow hold both of Meredith's hands together so she can't use her hands. That leaves her feet open. She would have been kicking. There was also Meredith's hair in clumps on the floor....if Rudy was holding her by the hair to restrain her, that would leave both Meredith's arms and legs free. I just don't see how it's possible with only Rudy. If her hands were at any point free, they would have defensive cuts on them like Travis' did, from trying to shield herself from the knife.

I suppose he could have sat on top of her legs and pinned her down with his legs, then used one of his hands to hold her two hands together. I don't know how possible that is or how much strength he would have needed to do that. And that doesn't explain her hair clumps on the floor. That also doesn't explain how or why there were 2 knives involved.

Then there is the issue of the window staging. IMO, there is no way he could have gone though that window (let's assume he was somehow able to climb up to the window, though I find that improbable), without leaving signs that he went through that window. I just don't find it believable at all. There would have been no question as to whether it was a staged window or not. Climbing all the way up from the first window, I don't believe he could have done it by using his hands and then pulling one foot up on the window ledge. I believe he would have had to pull up with his hands and kind of lunge through the window. And then the glass on top of the clothes.

It just doesn't fit. Nothing fits or makes sense!

The prosecutor said that Meredith had bruising on her face and mouth area from someone preventing her from screaming. Guede would have had one hand on her mouth, one on one knife, but he couldn't have restrained her hands at the same time. If he restrained both hands with one hand (not likely) and prevented her from screaming with the other, he couldn't have stabbed her.

You're right. When you add it all up, nothing about Knox's explanations make sense.

 

[aa9511]

At first they didn't think JA acted alone either (and not because of the ninja story).

Why couldn't RG have immobilized her on the bed, holding both of her wrists in one of his hands and the other over her mouth - possibly not attempting to use the knife until he lost control of her? Or pinning her with his knees on her arms, then both hands are free. If two others were there I'd think there would be a bigger mess, maybe things knocked over, it's not a huge room if 4 adults are in it with all the furniture.

Now that I think about it, the bloody footprint on the bath mat, maybe that was when RG used the restroom, after the attack and before he left?

Re; The footprints.....there were no footprints leading up to the mat or coming back from it. So someone cleaned up those footrpints. The middle footprints are missing. Another piece of evidence for cleaning/covering-up.

But if he lost control of her by essentially suffocating her, wouldn't that show up in the autopsy? And then what need would there be for the "overkill?" He could have just killed her off completely by suffocating her, if that was his point. By point meaning having her dead so she couldn't ID him. He could have even taken a pillow and just suffocated her until he killed her, or used his hands. Why would he stop before she was all the way dead, and then turn around and stab her 43 times just for the fun of it?

It doesn't make sense.

 

[aa9511]

Didn't she lure him to the bathtub to take photos and then attack him with a knife while he was extremely vulnerable? I thought she started with a fun photo shoot, then stabbed him and as he tried to get out of the bathtub and run, she stabbed him in the back while he paused at the sink. It seems he then collapsed and she attacked him as he crawled down the hallway. Didn't he also have cuts on his hands?

This was quite different. Meredith would not have made herself vulnerable to an attack. People that are attacked with a knife will hold the knife blade with their hands to prevent an attack to the face and neck. Meredith was unable to do anything to protect herself from the knife ... no attempt to grab the knife and protect herself.

I agree. There is no question that she was restrained. The only question is could Rudy have been the only one to restrain her and stab her at the same time, using two different knives?

 

[Harmony 2]

It looks like a good sized bedroom. Meredith was murdered next to the closet. Her body was later moved.

At first they didn't think JA acted alone either (and not because of the ninja story).

Why couldn't RG have immobilized her on the bed, holding both of her wrists in one of his hands and the other over her mouth - possibly not attempting to use the knife until he lost control of her? Or pinning her with his knees on her arms, then both hands are free. If two others were there I'd think there would be a bigger mess, maybe things knocked over, it's not a huge room if 4 adults are in it with all the furniture.

Now that I think about it, the bloody footprint on the bath mat, maybe that was when RG used the restroom, after the attack and before he left?

If Meredith was sitting on her bed with her back to the door then Rudy pounces on her from behind holding the knife up to her throat, over powers her with the element of surprise IMO the lone attacker is possible. This type of attack from behind would also account for the minimal number of defensive wounds.

 

[otto]

At first they didn't think JA acted alone either (and not because of the ninja story).

Why couldn't RG have immobilized her on the bed, holding both of her wrists in one of his hands and the other over her mouth - possibly not attempting to use the knife until he lost control of her? Or pinning her with his knees on her arms, then both hands are free. If two others were there I'd think there would be a bigger mess, maybe things knocked over, it's not a huge room if 4 adults are in it with all the furniture.

Now that I think about it, the bloody footprint on the bath mat, maybe that was when RG used the restroom, after the attack and before he left?

Here you can see the two bathrooms. After the murder, Guede left bloody shoe prints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the living room area and out the door.

 

[otto]

If Meredith was sitting on her bed with her back to the door then Rudy pounces on her from behind holding the knife up to her throat, over powers her with the element of surprise IMO the lone attacker is possible. This type of attack from behind would also account for the minimal number of defensive wounds.

Why would she sit on her bed with her back to the door. She was planning on studying, using the text book that she borrowed and had to return the following day. If she was going to study on her bed, why wouldn't she use her pillow to make herself more comfortable ... meaning that she would be facing the door.

Allegedly, Guede smashed Filomina's bedroom window with a 9 pound rock. Prior to doing this, he had scale the wall to open the exterior shutters. Then he had to smash the window and then climb the wall and open the window and then the interior shutters before climbing in the window. He did all of this without leaving any trace of grass or mud from outside ... and also without disturbing the broken glass that lay neatly on the exterior of the window sill. Then, he allegedly ransacked Filomina's closet and then he used the toilet. With all of this going on while Meredith is studying, how it is possible that she ignored it all and sat on her bed with her back to the door?

 

[geevee]

Hiya geevee!

I've thought about the Arias case as well. But the difference is, in that Travis was trying to run away from Jodi. Jodi didn't have him pinned down and stabbing him. And even then, even with him running away, he did have defensive wounds on him. Very obvious ones. Remember his hands? Large cuts? Bruises on his legs, etc.. It was very obvious there was a struggle. He first defended himself, and then tried to get away.

But what about the two knives? Like they said in the report, that means Rudy would have had to set one knife down, then picked up the other, it just doesn't make sense. Also I have a real problem with the no defensive wounds. So Rudy obviously needs 1 hand to hold the knife in. That leaves only 1 hand free on Rudy. Let's say, with 1 hand he is able to somehow hold both of Meredith's hands together so she can't use her hands. That leaves her feet open. She would have been kicking. There was also Meredith's hair in clumps on the floor....if Rudy was holding her by the hair to restrain her, that would leave both Meredith's arms and legs free. I just don't see how it's possible with only Rudy. If her hands were at any point free, they would have defensive cuts on them like Travis' did, from trying to shield herself from the knife.

I suppose he could have sat on top of her legs and pinned her down with his legs, then used one of his hands to hold her two hands together. I don't know how possible that is or how much strength he would have needed to do that. And that doesn't explain her hair clumps on the floor. That also doesn't explain how or why there were 2 knives involved.

Then there is the issue of the window staging. IMO, there is no way he could have gone though that window (let's assume he was somehow able to climb up to the window, though I find that improbable), without leaving signs that he went through that window. I just don't find it believable at all. There would have been no question as to whether it was a staged window or not. Climbing all the way up from the first window, I don't believe he could have done it by using his hands and then pulling one foot up on the window ledge. I believe he would have had to pull up with his hands and kind of lunge through the window. And then the glass on top of the clothes.

It just doesn't fit. Nothing fits or makes sense!

BBM

Hiya aa.

I do agree, nothing makes a great deal of sense about the scene, while I have a bit of trouble with RG acting alone (bloody shoeprints as well as bare footprints) I have more trouble trying to fit 4 people into the room and 3 committing the crime.

I appreciate you (and everyone else) being patient while I work through it and ask some lamebrained questions, I've of course heard all about it over the years, but haven't looked through the evidence or theories until just lately so never really formed an opinion.

I don't wonder at all why it's gone on so long or there are definite lines drawn between believers of AK/RS' guilt or innocence, I haven't arrived at a belief yet, not even sure I ever will. But I'll try to come to some 'personal verdict' if possible, I don't like hanging chads. lol

 

[geevee]

There is no evidence that Guede was barefoot. The bloody bare foot print on the bath mat is in the small bathroom next to Meredith's bedroom. The unflushed toilet is next to the living room/kitchen area.

Yes, sorry, I realized that after I posted, they've attributed shoeprints to RG and the bare footprint to RS (even though I don't agree with that conclusion based on the measurement chart).

 

[geevee]

Re; The footprints.....there were no footprints leading up to the mat or coming back from it. So someone cleaned up those footrpints. The middle footprints are missing. Another piece of evidence for cleaning/covering-up.

But if he lost control of her by essentially suffocating her, wouldn't that show up in the autopsy? And then what need would there be for the "overkill?" He could have just killed her off completely by suffocating her, if that was his point. By point meaning having her dead so she couldn't ID him. He could have even taken a pillow and just suffocated her until he killed her, or used his hands. Why would he stop before she was all the way dead, and then turn around and stab her 43 times just for the fun of it?

It doesn't make sense.

I meant he went for the knife when he couldn't control and rape her by holding her down. That could account for a lot of the bruising. If you've ever wrestled as a kid, the first move in pinning your opponent is to control their movements, if you get on their waist with them lying face up or down, all you have to do is get their arms under your knees - did she have bruising on her fore or upper arms? I've only read about the facial ones but they say her body shows she was restrained by more than 1.

 

[otto]

BBM

Hiya aa.

I do agree, nothing makes a great deal of sense about the scene, while I have a bit of trouble with RG acting alone (bloody shoeprints as well as bare footprints) I have more trouble trying to fit 4 people into the room and 3 committing the crime.

I appreciate you (and everyone else) being patient while I work through it and ask some lamebrained questions, I've of course heard all about it over the years, but haven't looked through the evidence or theories until just lately so never really formed an opinion.

I don't wonder at all why it's gone on so long or there are definite lines drawn between believers of AK/RS' guilt or innocence, I haven't arrived at a belief yet, not even sure I ever will. But I'll try to come to some 'personal verdict' if possible, I don't like hanging chads. lol

The bedroom is 12' x 11'6". The bed is 3' x 6'. The desk is est: 3' x 2'. We have 138 square feet. Subtract the bed, desk, night stand (1' x 1') and wardrobe (est: 3' x 2') and we have
138 - 18 - 6 - 1 - 6 = 138 - 31 = 107 square feet.

How is 107 square feet not enough space for three people to attack one person?

 

[geevee]

Here you can see the two bathrooms. After the murder, Guede left bloody shoe prints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the living room area and out the door.

So maybe his shoes were off during (or came off in the struggle) and after using the bathroom he put his shoes on and walked out, leaving shoeprints? There was blood on the faucet (and the sink too?), whose dna was in that?

Just theorizing.