Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

[dgfred]

Dna is NOT discredited by the Italian Courts... the ones that matter.

One of the murder weapons is basically proved... with dna of the victim and one of the suspects found on it.

She made enough statements that were admissible IMO. Plenty.

They didn't need motive as has been shown with their convictions.

 

[MichaelSmith]

The case against Amanda and Raffaele isn't solid. It's an off the wall theory of a crime that doesn't make a bit of sense.

Two young lovers, AK and RS, that have only known each other for eight days unexpectedly find they have the night free. But rather than spend the time alone together, driven by the effects of smoking marijuana they seek out RG, a third person that AK barely knows and RS has never met. The two then convince RG to join them in the torture and murder of AK's roommate MK.

Yep, all in under an hour after watching Ameile. One minute Raffaele is mr nice guy willing to help a girl drop off a suitcase, the next minute he's brutally raping and killing a girl he barely knew with a complete stranger.

Absurd and ridiculous

 

[MichaelSmith]

Here's Guede caught on video at the cottage around 8pm before Amanda even got the text from Lumumba.

http://www.oggi.it/video/notizie/2012/03/05/caso-di-perugia-il-video-mai-visto-di-rudy-guede/

Guede writes in his diary

As I arrived in front of the cottage, I noticed a white car with headlights on.

In the video you can see a car parked outside the cottage gates. How could he have known that unless it's him?

 

[otto]

Thank you so much. I have had similar thoughts; and yes, such a theory is effective in closing the gaps and answering some of the puzzling questions.

I also used to ponder if Knox and Sollecito had jokingly spoken of Guede raping MK and then when it occurred were horrified that he had acted on the fantasy, and realized that they had "put him up to it". I know that pot is not known to make people violent; and so in my mind I had precluded violence on their part.

I suppose at this point it is for the court to decide and if they were accessories to this murder in any way (if they feel the preponderance of evidence points toward this, as I believe it does) and to rule and sentence accordingly.

On the other hand, I do find this section of the Galati Appeal which was accepted by the Italian Supreme Court , thus overturning the Hellmann acquittal of the defendants, most interesting and telling. from the PDF which I have downloaded and forms part of my own files:

That's a powerful statement! Knox knew details about the actual murder scene before they were known. This is where they were standing. The police broke the door, so they were closest to the door and everyone else was farther away. Knox and Sollecito were in the kitchen/living room right next to the laundry and exterior door.

 

[Yellow]

Dna is NOT discredited by the Italian Courts... the ones that matter.

One of the murder weapons is basically proved... with dna of the victim and one of the suspects found on it.

She made enough statements that were admissible IMO. Plenty.

They didn't need motive as has been shown with their convictions.

Yes but right now we are basically back to the trial court verdict, the appeals court has not even had a chance to rule on the discredited DNA evidence after the Supreme Court appeal. So one cannot really say that the Italian courts did not discredit it - they have not legally considered the independent experts ruling yet, to not rule on it is a far cry from the Italian courts saying they believe in the DNA evidence,

How can the court accept the DNA once there is such overwhelming evidence discrediting it? They could uphold the conviction on other grounds but I think if the Italian courts say that DNA is admissible, it will really cause an uproar. Indeed, I think if they uphold the dna that would enhance AK claim to the European court of justice. If they base it on other evidence maybe not, but if they rest it on the DNA, that makes a strong claim for her on appeal.

And I would add that the appeals court last time believed the discredited DNA. The Supreme Court did not come back and rebuke them for that. The SC said in fact that testing that they did recently would be "decisive." And the test came back w only AK DNA on knife.

As for the second statement, if the dna evidence is discredited, there goes that as the murder weapon. Also, how come no blood DNA? I don't think that knife proves anything 1) bc the DNA I am confident will be discredited) and even if not 2) it is not the murder weapon - no matching cuts, no match to bloody print) and 3) there is no blood on that knife which you would need in a stabbing and 4) even if DNA is there there could be an explanation. Maybe AK and RS were stoned, went to the house that night, the knife was laying there, AK picked it up, then later they realized the murder scene? Still I would expect the knife used to stab someone would have blood, which this knife did not have

Has their ever been a stabbing where the knife did not have blood?

 

[otto]

I also think this case will go on for at least 5 more years or even longer should the appeals court uphold the verdict. It will be appealed to Supreme Court and possibly then the European court of justice after that. Then any extradiction will be a mess - I don't think they will ever extradite her and I think RS will go to someplace where he cannot be extradited (though I am not sure if there is such a place for an Italian national). It will be a huge media story if they ever get to the extradiction phase.

I am outraged Rudy can get out next year. It is ridiculous someone could do so brutal of a crime - where everyone knows beyond a reasonable doubt he did it, his DNA is all over - and he gets like 8 years. A man who kidnapped and rapes a little girl in WY pleaded guilty to life - as he should. Rudy should have got the same or at least 25 years. Nonsense about the fast track is silly - the prosecution had the evidence to put him away for life. Just as the WY example shows, we don't always give special privileges to people who do not put the govt through a trial.

Well, Italy will end up paying for it, because I am convinced Rudy will kill again. And then maybe once he is caught the next time, he will tell everyone what really happened in that cottage.

It is a misconception that Guede will be released in 2014. In May, 2016, Guede completes half of his sentence, meaning he becomes eligible for parole. Guede does not get out of prison next year.

 

[dgfred]

Yes. Some killers wipe the blood off their weapons and themselves as best they can. IMO that is not the Courts view of the knife dna at this point. Much less the places of AK's dna mixed with Meredith's blood.

The 'independent' experts have been trashed IMO.

 

[otto]

The West Virginia case of the murder of Skylar Neese seems to show that there doesn't need to be much of a motive and that people that smoke pot can and do kill people.

They were also high school kids...two on one. Senseless!!

I think the law is different here too ... between Italy and the US. I believe that in many states a motive is not required. In Italy, an explanation is required ... don't quote me on that, but I seem to recall that a motive or explanation is required in the legal argument.

 

[Yellow]

Yes. Some killers wipe the blood off their weapons and themselves as best they can. IMO that is not the Courts view of the knife dna at this point. Much less the places of AK's dna mixed with Meredith's blood.

The 'independent' experts have been trashed IMO.

Yes you can wipe away physical signs of blood but I think the tests they do can tell whether it is blood DNA or not. The knife has no blood DNA. How could you stab someone with a knife where no blood was ever on it. And why don't the cuts match the body,

Whether Rudy gets out is too soon for me, even if he serves his full 16 year term he will still be only like 36-37 and I am confident he will continue to be in the system committing crimes.

I suppose people believe too that the 19 experts hired by the defense too were hired guns in addition to the 2 independent experts?

The prosecution would be wise not to make their case on DNA, bc that is AK's strongest case on appeal and I firmly believe if this goes to the European court of justice they will get every major DNA expert in this country establishing the unreliability of that evidence,

Is the argument that the prosecution makes - is it that the DNA is not low copy? Or is it that yeah, it is low copy but still shows guilt?

And is it that w bra that they have a clean chain of custody and they can show it was not contaminated?

 

[Yellow]

And what is the matter with the independent experts? Does the prosecution claim they are incompetent? If so why would they have agrees to them in the first place or why would the court appoint them?

So no one in the Italian police or prosecutor acted improperly in this case BUT they hired an incompetent expert to examine the evidence? Not just one incompetent expert but two?

 

[redheadedgal]

Is there some concern about the DNA evidence that was used to convict Guede?

Didn't Chris Mellas release Knox's diary contents?

As far as I know, none of Meredith's friends and roommates were video taped when they were interviewed as witnesses. It is also not normal policy to video tape witness statements during an investigation. I'm sure that if the police had any idea that Knox would make a statement about Patrick during her witness interview, they would have had a video camera rolling.

I have to admit, I was confused when CNN posted pictures of Knox as a soccer child next to descriptions of the murder. That didn't make any sense.

That report about DNA being starch was definitely an error. Thankfully, the court has corrected that huge mistake.

Knox's computer was not related to the murder, and Sollecito's computer was analyzed. Was any data related to the murder investigation missing?

Not all DNA can be retested years after it is tested. That's the way it goes ... everywhere.

I don't think anyone was framed. There certainly isn't any evidence that anyone was framed.

a handprint match on the wall and a shoeprint match on the floor are not dna evidence.

link to CM released amanda's list of lovers?

then why the assertion about budget constraints? who made it?

comparing media behavior to police/prosecutor behavior?

C&V are taken to task for stating re: contamination that "anything is possible" but mignini is not for prosecuting AK even though he admits he cannot put her in the room... maybe she wasn't there... maybe she insitigated the brutal slaying from another room?

it is not normal to fry several hard drives in the course of an investigation: purposeful or incompetence?

my point was a failure to properly store evidence: purposeful or incompetence?

the point was missed entirely.

 

[Yellow]

I think the law is different here too ... between Italy and the US. I believe that in many states a motive is not required. In Italy, an explanation is required ... don't quote me on that, but I seem to recall that a motive or explanation is required in the legal argument.

If that is true, then I think prosecutors need to make out some case of motive. It seems like alot of people are saying no motive is required and don't want to discuss it. But if that is a point of law that must be proves in Italy, that is a very weak claim for the prosecution.

Besides thrill kill, what other motive? Do those who believe in her guilt think this was planned or do they think this was spur of the moment? What was preexisting relationship among the three? Does anyone think they knew RG intimately beforehand?

 

[otto]

Amanda & Raffaele found out how Meredith died from Luca in the car on the way to the police statement. She cried hearing the news. The conversation in the car is in Dempsey, Follain & Burleigh.

Have a read of Luca's testimony. He saw Bastelli go into the room and lift the duvet and then he overheard Bastelli's phone call calling it in.

So all of a sudden Knox, who didn't speak a word of Italian when she was questioned as a witness, was fluent in Italian and perfectly understood what Bastelli explained to police in a phone call: that Meredith had been murdered near the closet, that her body lay prone with a foot exposed, and that she bled to death? How did Bastelli know that Meredith was murdered near the closet ... that couldn't be seen in the scene because Meredith had been moved a few feet away from the closet, where she bled more.

 

[Yellow]

a handprint match on the wall and a shoeprint match on the floor are not dna evidence.

link to CM released amanda's list of lovers?

then why the assertion about budget constraints? who made it?

comparing media behavior to police/prosecutor behavior?

C&V are taken to task for stating re: contamination that "anything is possible" but mignini is not for prosecuting AK even though he admits he cannot put her in the room... maybe she wasn't there... maybe she insitigated the brutal slaying from another room?

it is not normal to fry several hard drives in the course of an investigation: purposeful or incompetence?

my point was a failure to properly store evidence: purposeful or incompetence?

the point was missed entirely.

Rudy DNA was found inside MK and in bra, handbag and somewhere else, I think shirt.

 

[otto]

She must not have been sad for very long... the way they acted a short time later.

At least from Meredith's friends and LE's reported views.

Shocking really. Knox knew that Meredith "f-ing bled to death" before anyone knew. She mentioned the closet, when it was not known for some time that Meredith was murdered next to the closet because her body was moved. She mentioned "a foot" to her mother on the phone. That's the first phone call she remembers.

The next day, the pair were seen teasing each other in the lingerie shop. They did not attend the memorial service for Meredith Kercher.

 

[otto]

Like I said it would be more believeable if AK and RS were alone and RG was not involved. I don't see how you get to a thrill kill to explain the involvement on all three. You would need all three to have a preexisting relationship or you would need for AK and RS to just spontaneously decide "hey look he's killing her, let us join in too!" Without any evidence of AK ever being violent or interested in violent *advertiser censored*,etc.

And wanting to push boundaries such as having some sex and smoking pot is a far far far crime from committing murder, I would venture to guess that 99% of Americans going in foreign study "push boundaries" by doing the exact same things as AK.

The US has several thrill kill stories. I have no idea how these youth and young adults can get so far from reality, but it happens.

Pushing boundaries doesn't stop at spontaneous sex and good drugs, especially for someone that has just discovered that it is possible ... someone that burst into loud song at a restaurant with Meredith and her friends one evening ... something everyone considered odd.

 

[Yellow]

So all of a sudden Knox, who didn't speak a word of Italian when she was questioned as a witness, was fluent in Italian and perfectly understood what Bastelli explained to police in a phone call: that Meredith had been murdered near the closet, that her body lay prone with a foot exposed, and that she bled to death? How did Bastelli know that Meredith was murdered near the closet ... that couldn't be seen in the scene because Meredith had been moved a few feet away from the closet, where she bled more.

This could all be explained by the possibility AK and RS came back to the cottage the night before after the murder, saw the scene, then thought what to do. Of course it is not rational not to call the police right away but maybe they thought if they reported it someone would think they did it, especially if AK accidentally picked up the knife. Maybe the knife was even left somewhere like the floor, she picked it before she got to the murder scene, both kids -afraid they could be charged w murder bc AK touched the knife- then came up w the story about not arriving till the next morning, this also explains the phone call to mom, could possibly explain the DNA, etc - all without them being the murderers.

Of course, I believe they were not even there till next morning, but I would entertain the possibility they were in the cottage that night. I think that scenario explains many of the questions that people who believe in her guilt have issues with. It also explains her statement - the scream, etc. Maybe she was in the house that night even, passed out or stoned, during the time of the murder. It does not mean they are the murderer, why no DNA in the room?

I think the possibility of that scenario brings reasonable doubt even if you think them guilty, especially once you eliminate the discredited DNA evidence.

 

[Amber29]

Yes you can wipe away physical signs of blood but I think the tests they do can tell whether it is blood DNA or not. The knife has no blood DNA. How could you stab someone with a knife where no blood was ever on it. And why don't the cuts match the body,

Whether Rudy gets out is too soon for me, even if he serves his full 16 year term he will still be only like 36-37 and I am confident he will continue to be in the system committing crimes.

I suppose people believe too that the 19 experts hired by the defense too were hired guns in addition to the 2 independent experts?

The prosecution would be wise not to make their case on DNA, bc that is AK's strongest case on appeal and I firmly believe if this goes to the European court of justice they will get every major DNA expert in this country establishing the unreliability of that evidence,

Is the argument that the prosecution makes - is it that the DNA is not low copy? Or is it that yeah, it is low copy but still shows guilt?

And is it that w bra that they have a clean chain of custody and they can show it was not contaminated?

Are you aware of the experts that represented the prosecutor/civil side pertaining to the DNA evidence in the appeal?
Hellmann completely disgarded what they said as well.
So it's ok if any experts agreeing with the prosecutors side are deemed incompetent but not C&V?

How do you feel about the sample C&V found on the knife that they refused to test and their reason for not testing?

 

[redheadedgal]

Rudy DNA was found inside MK and in bra, handbag and somewhere else, I think shirt.

yes, i know.

my point was that even if you throw out the alleged sloppily collected dna evidence against RG, the two matching prints would be enough to convict imo

 

[whoanellie]

There is no reasonable motive for Amanda or Raffaele to murder Meredith. Nor are there signs of the kind of severe mental illness that drives a murder without a motive.

Rudy on the other hand had a motive. He was caught in the act of committing a crime and wanted to escape. A few weeks before, Rudy had been discovered inside a Perugia home and pulled a knife on the homeowner. He had already proved he was willing to use force to avoid being caught.

Meredith died when a burglary escalated into a murder.

The timeline makes this even more clear. The meal Meredith had consumed at 6:30 pm would have started to pass into her duodenum a maximum of 3 hours later, but she died before that happened. She arrived home just after 9 pm and almost certainly died before 9:30 pm.

During this time, Amanda and Raffaele were at his place watching the movie "Amalie" that ended at 9:10 pm. They started an anime short at 9:26 pm.

It really is that simple! Thanks!