Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

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Harmony2 said:
I think the implication is that the lamp was used during cleanup...

By sight, how does one recognize one's own DNA, footprints or fingerprints?
How does one remove one's own DNA completely using a lamp?
Why go through all that trouble of cleaning bloody footprints but then leave a bloody footprint on a rug, bloody smear on a faucet and light switch a few feet away?[/QUOTE]

Harmony, your post got me thinking.....what if Amanda and RS started the clean-up in Meredith's room (I think this would be the obvious place they would start first, anyway)....did that....moved on to hallway....did that....then they were going to do the bathroom, or finish up the bathroom.....but then got interrupted by the policia.
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Yellow said:
So does anyone know why RG would have went to the bathroom and further not flushed it? I know what the pro guilty side would argue, but what explains that if RG is sole perp? Was it just that he was snooping around, not thinking anyone was home and then decided to go to the bathroom? I think the bathroom incident had to have happened pre murder, he might have been on the toilet when MK arrived home and that is why he did not flush, he would have startled her

I don't think it was after the murder. I mean surely would someone be so stupid so as to leave that evidence after the murder?

In any event his bathroom thing is just odd. I think he heard from the guys downstairs that they were going to be away, maybe one of the girls mentioned it too. He must have felt he had time to do that
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That was Guede's habit: not flushing. He had done the same thing a few days earlier while visiting the people that lived in the lower part of the cottage.
 
Yellow said:
I don't think the poster is saying that everyone should have left a handprint

But RG left a handprint in blood on her pillow. If they were so interested in cleaning, why didn't they wipe that away? Why not just take off the pillowcase?

If you had 3 people stabbing someone in that room, and it being alleged AK and RS somehow held her down, you would have their DNA on her body somehow or you would have them stepping in the blood in the murder room near the body. Footprints found in other parts of the apartment that matched AK were not even blood.
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Why would they clean Guede's hand print? Was it even obvious there was a hand print? I never seen a clear picture of it. No DNA is expected from stabbing someone and there wasn't any. The only DNA trace on her body was from Guede's sexual assault. No DNA traces of stabbing or strangling Meredith have ever been found. The footprints were concluded to have been made in blood. This has been discussed many times.
 
redheadedgal said:
since the below has also been stated (thread #4), do you have a link to a transcript for the bolded remark?

Meredith was strong and had been trained in karate, insisting she would have tried to fight off her attackers.

http://www.nbc4i.com/story/23769794/coroner-woman-stabbed-in-blendon-twp-park-stabbed-26-times
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I provided a quote from Meredith's father. Is the request for a transcript of a father's statements about his murdered daughter before it can believed?

Perhaps I can refer you to his book.
<modsnip>
 
Yellow said:
I don't think the poster is saying that everyone should have left a handprint

But RG left a handprint in blood on her pillow. If they were so interested in cleaning, why didn't they wipe that away? Why not just take off the pillowcase?

If you had 3 people stabbing someone in that room, and it being alleged AK and RS somehow held her down, you would have their DNA on her body somehow or you would have them stepping in the blood in the murder room near the body. Footprints found in other parts of the apartment that matched AK were not even blood.
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bbm

You mean the luminol footprints? Those were in blood.
 
SMK said:
Here is the Galati section (from pdf)

Analysis of prints and other traces

About the luminol foot prints, it is implausible to assume that those prints were left on some other occasion, since – in the Court’s view - luminol basically indicates blood (and in no other circumstance could someone produce such a set of prints in blood). The Cassazione notes that the Massei scenario to explain the footprints was far more plausible, and Hellmann-Zanetti bring no reason to refute it.
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I am moving this excellent post over about the luminol.
 
Yellow said:
That said, one can have all the self defense training, etc in the world. But MK is simply no match for RG. Thousands of women are murdered every year by men coming into their home and attempting rape and sometimes they kill them. The vast majority of women - even women skilled in martial arts - are simply no match for a strong 6 foot guy.
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Martial arts teacher stabbed to death
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2010/09/marial_artist_bartender_stabbe.html
 
sherlockh said:
Why would they clean Guede's hand print? Was it even obvious there was a hand print? I never seen a clear picture of it. No DNA is expected from stabbing someone and there wasn't any. The only DNA trace on her body was from Guede's sexual assault. No DNA traces of stabbing or strangling Meredith have ever been found. The footprints were concluded to have been made in blood. This has been discussed many times.
Click to expand...

I would think they would want to get rid of all evidence, given that if all three were involved, it would occur in a blur with no one really keeping track of what others were doing. How was AK to know that the print was not RS or even hers? If not sure, she would have cleaned.

Also, why not clean away the blood print of the bloody knife? Why give the police an outline of the size of the murder weapon? (This print matched the cut marks)

Moreover, Rudy's DNA was in other parts of that murder room, her shirt, her bag, etc, including in her.

The luminal prints of AK were not blood. They just showed up in luminol, does not mean it is blood. Unlike RS where they did find bloody footprints. The former appellate court should have incorporated into their case a reason why they discounted the footprint evidence; bc it did not, the court had no reason to discount the lower court's reasoning. The Supreme Court of Italy is not a fact finder, it can only affirm or not affirm lower court findings and it may be that the appellate court did not devote enough space to refute the reasoning

Moreover, AK admits to being in the house where a murder had been committed. Who knew what RG tracked through that house that AK could have stepped in. The fact that she was barefoot supports her view that she collected whatever reacted with luminol ( and bleach can react with luminol not just blood so cleaning products from the shower could also have interacted). Who would have the strength to commit a murder, a stabbing, without shoes on.
 
Yellow said:
This ridiculous toilet story is in THE headline for the story in newspapers all over the world. If you look it up, nearly all the headlines mention at least either that MK was murdered over the toilet tiff or AK killed bc of cleaning or toilet fight.
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women-- if you don't want to be a murder suspect

don't forget to flush (even if it's not yours)
don't buy underwear
don't wear a halloween costume
don't buy a desk lamp
don't be seen in public stretching, doing yoga or even a cartwheel
don't own anything pink and plastic
 
otto said:
I provided a quote from Meredith's father. Is the request for a transcript of a father's statements about his murdered daughter before it can believed?

Perhaps I can refer you to his book.
Perhaps people have forgotten who the victim is.
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Sadly, I think women sometimes feel a false sense of security just because they have self defense classes or take martial arts. When I read this statement years ago from MK's father, I always found it odd because there is simply nothing MK could have done. Quite simply, for probably most women, you are simply no match for a 6 foot guy - especially one with a knife.

Lack of defensive wounds is odd, but it could also be that she did not resist because he had a knife to her throat and she faces the horrible choice of complying with a rape or getting killed. I don't think she ever thought he would kill her, I think she thought he was going to rape her, so faced with that choice, she did not fight back. I mean, where was she going to go? She was alone in the house, with no one around. She had to know she was not getting out of that room without him overpowering her, she would have had to over power him, do some karate moves or whatever, get past the room, get past the door, go outside and try to find help in an empty street. At one point along that line he would have overpowered her and she knew that.
 
Yellow said:
I would think they would want to get rid of all evidence, given that if all three were involved, it would occur in a blur with no one really keeping track of what others were doing. How was AK to know that the print was not RS or even hers? If not sure, she would have cleaned.

Also, why not clean away the blood print of the bloody knife? Why give the police an outline of the size of the murder weapon? (This print matched the cut marks)

Moreover, Rudy's DNA was in other parts of that murder room, her shirt, her bag, etc, including in her.

The luminal prints of AK were not blood. They just showed up in luminol, does not mean it is blood. Unlike RS where they did find bloody footprints. The former appellate court should have incorporated into their case a reason why they discounted the footprint evidence; bc it did not, the court had no reason to discount the lower court's reasoning. The Supreme Court of Italy is not a fact finder, it can only affirm or not affirm lower court findings and it may be that the appellate court did not devote enough space to refute the reasoning

Moreover, AK admits to being in the house where a murder had been committed. Who knew what RG tracked through that house that AK could have stepped in. The fact that she was barefoot supports her view that she collected whatever reacted with luminol ( and bleach can react with luminol not just blood so cleaning products from the shower could also have interacted). Who would have the strength to commit a murder, a stabbing, without shoes on.
Click to expand...

bbm


What is the point of testing with luminol if any Tom, Dick, and Jane's footprints would react to it. That defeats the whole purpose.

Rudy's footprints also showed up in luminol. Those were in blood. Amanda's footprints show up in luminol, but yet those aren't in blood, those are in some undetermined manner?
 
Yellow said:
So does anyone know why RG would have went to the bathroom and further not flushed it? I know what the pro guilty side would argue, but what explains that if RG is sole perp? Was it just that he was snooping around, not thinking anyone was home and then decided to go to the bathroom? I think the bathroom incident had to have happened pre murder, he might have been on the toilet when MK arrived home and that is why he did not flush, he would have startled her

I don't think it was after the murder. I mean surely would someone be so stupid so as to leave that evidence after the murder?

In any event his bathroom thing is just odd. I think he heard from the guys downstairs that they were going to be away, maybe one of the girls mentioned it too. He must have felt he had time to do that
Click to expand...

I think he was sitting on the toilet when Meredith walked in the door and didn't flush because it would have alerted her someone was there. He writes in his diary about sitting on the toilet when the "real killer" walked in the door except it was Meredith imo. He even writes about hearing the sound of keys.
 
Yellow said:
I would think they would want to get rid of all evidence, given that if all three were involved, it would occur in a blur with no one really keeping track of what others were doing. How was AK to know that the print was not RS or even hers? If not sure, she would have cleaned.

Also, why not clean away the blood print of the bloody knife? Why give the police an outline of the size of the murder weapon? (This print matched the cut marks)

Moreover, Rudy's DNA was in other parts of that murder room, her shirt, her bag, etc, including in her.

The luminal prints of AK were not blood. They just showed up in luminol, does not mean it is blood. Unlike RS where they did find bloody footprints.
Click to expand...

Was there any blatant evidence of a clean up at the cottage? Other than washing the bloody footprints off the floor in the hallway and leading to/from the bathmat, recent laundry still in the washing machine, wiping door handles, doors, other obvious surfaces in the bedroom, perhaps accidentally wiping all the lamps and light switches - perhaps not wiping any of them, the cottage crime scene was not wiped clean.

Foot prints in the hallway and bathroom (other than the bathmat) definitely vanished from the scene before police arrived. Either that, or there were clear blood footprints in the hallway and at Meredith's bedroom door - which would hopefully have alarmed Knox. Meredith's bedroom was locked. On the surface, nothing was amiss. That is the type of clean up that occurred. I think the clean up was intended to deceive police regarding whether one person was involved, or whether two others were also there.

Additionally, the crime was staged with a broken window (no evidence of Guede in that room). Also, Meredith's body had been moved after the murder with a streak of blood across the floor where her hair made a blood smear. She bled out near the closet and then she was moved.
 
Yellow said:
I would think they would want to get rid of all evidence, given that if all three were involved, it would occur in a blur with no one really keeping track of what others were doing. How was AK to know that the print was not RS or even hers? If not sure, she would have cleaned.

Also, why not clean away the blood print of the bloody knife? Why give the police an outline of the size of the murder weapon? (This print matched the cut marks)

Moreover, Rudy's DNA was in other parts of that murder room, her shirt, her bag, etc, including in her.

The luminal prints of AK were not blood. They just showed up in luminol, does not mean it is blood. Unlike RS where they did find bloody footprints. The former appellate court should have incorporated into their case a reason why they discounted the footprint evidence; bc it did not, the court had no reason to discount the lower court's reasoning. The Supreme Court of Italy is not a fact finder, it can only affirm or not affirm lower court findings and it may be that the appellate court did not devote enough space to refute the reasoning

Moreover, AK admits to being in the house where a murder had been committed. Who knew what RG tracked through that house that AK could have stepped in. The fact that she was barefoot supports her view that she collected whatever reacted with luminol ( and bleach can react with luminol not just blood so cleaning products from the shower could also have interacted). Who would have the strength to commit a murder, a stabbing, without shoes on.
Click to expand...
Your point was that there should be more DNA traces on the body if there had been more people stabbing her, so I pointed out that only one trace on the body was found and it did not result from any stabbings. The stabbings were by the neck. We have a single trace of Guede and a single trace of Sollecito on the bra. One single trace of Guede on the shirt. That is all we have of the fight. I doubt the trace on the bag has anything to do with the fight. You often see hyperbole used to exaggerate Guede's DNA traces, such as 'all over' the room. The reason to exaggerate this is because the truth is that there were very few traces found overall. The conclusion is that Meredith was outnumbered.

The crime scene was staged. I do not agree that they would clean everything.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Luminol_Traces
 
redheadedgal said:
women-- if you don't want to be a murder suspect

don't forget to flush (even if it's not yours)
don't buy underwear
don't wear a halloween costume
don't buy a desk lamp
don't be seen in public stretching, doing yoga or even a cartwheel
don't own anything pink and plastic
Click to expand...

I would also add

Don't walk around barefoot
Don't let anyone comfort you in public after your friend is murdered
Don't call your mom in the middle of the night when she is in a different country
Don't use the knives in anyone's home
Don't try to help the police by ever voluntarily going there without a lawyer
Don't post childhood nicknames on the Internet
 
Here's a case puzzle: The only way to get out of the cottage is through the one door. Let's suppose that Guede climbed in the window. Meredith is at home alone, and she locked the front door to prevent the wind from blowing it open. Guede can only get out of the cottage with a key, or through the broken window.

How does he know that he needs to get the keys for the front door before he runs down the hall? Are most exterior door locks in Italy double keyed, or are there also deadbolts and other types of locks? I'm wondering, because where I am, it's probably half and half. Double keyed locks have a downside.
 
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