Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

[aa9511]

Sadly, I think women sometimes feel a false sense of security just because they have self defense classes or take martial arts. When I read this statement years ago from MK's father, I always found it odd because there is simply nothing MK could have done. Quite simply, for probably most women, you are simply no match for a 6 foot guy - especially one with a knife.

Lack of defensive wounds is odd, but it could also be that she did not resist because he had a knife to her throat and she faces the horrible choice of complying with a rape or getting killed. I don't think she ever thought he would kill her, I think she thought he was going to rape her, so faced with that choice, she did not fight back. I mean, where was she going to go? She was alone in the house, with no one around. She had to know she was not getting out of that room without him overpowering her, she would have had to over power him, do some karate moves or whatever, get past the room, get past the door, go outside and try to find help in an empty street. At one point along that line he would have overpowered her and she knew that.

Eeks, how easy it is to forget our will to survive!

Yellow, your scenario makes sense up until the point when the stabbing begins. Then, there is nothing to threaten her neck with. The knife at the throat would have been to warn her to stay still/submit or else....however, when the stabbing begins, the "else" has already begun. There is no reason for poor Meredith to stay still/submit anymore at that point. She would have been fighting back at that point, had she been allowed to.

The evidence shows she was restrained. I don't understand why this evidence keeps getting ignored. The question is not whether she was physically restrained or not.....that is what the evidence shows. The question should be, could Rudy have restrained her and stabbed her at the same time?

The choice to ignore the evidence of being physically restrained, leads to all sorts of different possibilities, which go against what the evidence shows.

I also strongly object to the assertion that, while being stabbed, she was thinking ahead and formulating different scenarios in her mind, such as, if I try to run, he'll get me. So nah, I think I'll just take death and not even try. That is not how we are designed, I don't care what example I'm shown otherwise.

She was not allowed to fight back because she was being restrained. She was not allowed to run because she was being restrained. She was not allowed to possibly live, because she was being restrained.

The only question is, could Rudy have restrained her and stabbed her at the same time, in a way consistent with the physical evidencve of the stabs and the restraint injuries on her body.

 

[otto]

I think he was sitting on the toilet when Meredith walked in the door and didn't flush because it would have alerted her someone was there. He writes in his diary about sitting on the toilet when the "real killer" walked in the door except it was Meredith imo. He even writes about hearing the sound of keys.

Guede routinely did not flush.
He did the same thing a few days earlier at the downstairs apartment.

 

[Yellow]

Was there any blatant evidence of a clean up at the cottage? Other than washing the bloody footprints off the floor in the hallway and leading to/from the bathmat, recent laundry still in the washing machine, wiping door handles, doors, other obvious surfaces in the bedroom, perhaps accidentally wiping all the lamps and light switches - perhaps not wiping any of them, the cottage crime scene was not wiped clean.

Foot prints in the hallway and bathroom (other than the bathmat) definitely vanished from the scene before police arrived. Either that, or there were clear blood footprints in the hallway and at Meredith's bedroom door - which would hopefully have alarmed Knox. Meredith's bedroom was locked. On the surface, nothing was amiss. That is the type of clean up that occurred. I think the clean up was intended to deceive police regarding whether one person was involved, or whether two others were also there.

Additionally, the crime was staged with a broken window (no evidence of Guede in that room). Also, Meredith's body had been moved after the murder with a streak of blood across the floor where her hair made a blood smear. She bled out near the closet and then she was moved.

RG's bloody footprints which matched the shoe print of the shoe he admitted he owned clearly track out of the murder room and out the front door.

W AK, those prints reacted with luminol but when they did the test with the tetra substance, it did not say that it was blood. Moreover, they DNA tested the footprints and it was not MK in the footprints. So what happened, even if it was blood, AK's feet got bloody during the murder with someone else's blood other than the victim

There is also no evidence of AK or RS in the rock room either. You have to make a circumstantial case it was RG. Given that was his modus operandi, I tend to think it was him as opposed to AK or RS. How would they know to frame RG by using the same technique he used the week prior? Was that technique advertised in a newspaper story? I thought his prior incident was not even in the news.

 

[otto]

Your point was that there should be more DNA traces on the body if there had been more people stabbing her, so I pointed out that only one trace on the body was found and it did not result from any stabbings. The stabbings were by the neck. We have a single trace of Guede and a single trace of Sollecito on the bra. One single trace of Guede on the shirt. That is all we have of the fight. I doubt the trace on the bag has anything to do with the fight. You often see hyperbole used to exaggerate Guede's DNA traces, such as 'all over' the room. The reason to exaggerate this is because the truth is that there were very few traces found overall. The conclusion is that Meredith was outnumbered.

The crime scene was staged. I do not agree that they would clean everything.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Luminol_Traces

Thank you for clearly stating the only DNA evidence found in Meredith's bedroom:

a single trace of Guede due to sexual assault
a single trace of Sollecito on the bra
a single trace of Guede on the shirt
a trace on the bag has nothing to do with the fight

Anyone that can add to the list of DNA evidence in the bedroom, please add. I think it's important to see whether the room was filled with Guede's DNA, or whether it was fortunate that any was found.

 

[aa9511]

google?

perp was 16, victim 55 and out jogging:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=jane%20juergens%20murder&PQ=jane%20juergens%20&SP=3&QS=AS&SK=AS2&sc=8-20&form=BB07SS&pc=BB07

I clicked on a couple or maybe 3 of the links and they all just gave a general summary of what happened.

I don't know where the stab cuts were, for example, if he had restrained her from the back and stabbed her in the back, that would be much more plausible why she wouldn't have defensive wounds.

Also, did he use materials such as cord or something to tie her with?

Anyway, why didn't the defense use examples like this in the trial to show how she could have been restrained and stabbed at the same time, consistent with the evidence found on Meredith's body?

 

[otto]

RG's bloody footprints which matched the shoe print of the shoe he admitted he owned clearly track out of the murder room and out the front door.

W AK, those prints reacted with luminol but when they did the test with the tetra substance, it did not say that it was blood. Moreover, they DNA tested the footprints and it was not MK in the footprints. So what happened, even if it was blood, AK's feet got bloody during the murder with someone else's blood other than the victim

There is also no evidence of AK or RS in the rock room either. You have to make a circumstantial case it was RG. Given that was his modus operandi, I tend to think it was him as opposed to AK or RS. How would they know to frame RG by using the same technique he used the week prior? Was that technique advertised in a newspaper story? I thought his prior incident was not even in the news.

Those shoes, tracking from Meredith's bedroom out the front door, were never found. The prosecutor stated that only blood would have left the evidence revealed by luminol. I guess we'll have to see how the court rules.

If Filomina's bedroom is the "rock room", there is a mixture of Knox DNA and Meredith's blood on a piece of glass in Filomina's bedroom.

 

[Yellow]

Eeks, how easy it is to forget our will to survive!

Yellow, your scenario makes sense up until the point when the stabbing begins. Then, there is nothing to threaten her neck with. The knife at the throat would have been to warn her to stay still/submit or else....however, when the stabbing begins, the "else" has already begun. There is no reason for poor Meredith to stay still/submit anymore at that point. She would have been fighting back at that point, had she been allowed to.

The evidence shows she was restrained. I don't understand why this evidence keeps getting ignored. The question is not whether she was physically restrained or not.....that is what the evidence shows. The question should be, could Rudy have restrained her and stabbed her at the same time?

The choice to ignore the evidence of being physically restrained, leads to all sorts of different possibilities, which go against what the evidence shows.

I also strongly object to the assertion that, while being stabbed, she was thinking ahead and formulating different scenarios in her mind, such as, if I try to run, he'll get me. So nah, I think I'll just take death and not even try. That is not how we are designed, I don't care what example I'm shown otherwise.

She was not allowed to fight back because she was being restrained. She was not allowed to run because she was being restrained. She was not allowed to possibly live, because she was being restrained.

The only question is, could Rudy have restrained her and stabbed her at the same time, in a way consistent with the physical evidencve of the stabs and the restraint injuries on her body.

I agree that at some point she would have realized this is not a rape and there would be a natural instinct to fight. But that might have happened in an instant after he made the first supericial stabs. We also do not know if she was restrained how she was. It would be one scenario that other people were in the room, even though there is not evidence that other people were in the room nor was there evidence they were holding her down. Wouldn't there be touch DNA if they were holding her down? They would have had to tightly hold her, how did they do that without either leaving fingerprints or touch DNA?

Another possibility is that she was restrained in another matter, maybe tied up and RG took that evidence from the scene

Another possibility is that RG was sufficient to restrain her. It would not be unheard of to not leave defensive wounds in a single perp case. RG looks like a very strong guy.

Still another, though this is very remote, is that there are some unidentified people involved in the murder.

In any event what defensive wounds do you want her to have? Not everyone has long fingernails. She could have very well fought back but left evidence more on HIM as opposes to her. If you hit someone you don't always bruise yourself. She could have been spitting on him, kicked him, who knows? When you kick someone do you leave a mark on your leg? Mostly not,

I don't think the absence of defensive wounds means she did not fight back. She either was immobilized quickly with the first 5-6 strikes or she fought back and did not leave evidence or she was restrained, though she need not have been restrained just by people, it could have been her hands were tied.

And while the absence of defensive wounds can be added to the pile of circumstantial evidence, it does not necessarily mean that 3 people killed her.

 

[otto]

I clicked on a couple or maybe 3 of the links and they all just gave a general summary of what happened.

I don't know where the stab cuts were, for example, if he had restrained her from the back and stabbed her in the back, that would be much more plausible why she wouldn't have defensive wounds.

Also, did he use materials such as cord or something to tie her with?

Anyway, why didn't the defense use examples like this in the trial to show how she could have been restrained and stabbed at the same time, consistent with the evidence found on Meredith's body?

Meredith was not bound. I suppose that is the difference between a single attacker intent on rape and this case. Aren't most kidnapped women and children instantly restrained? Two young girls were kidnapped this year ... Klunder case. Even those children were restrained. Only bound women can not instinctively protect their neck and face from a knife attack. Meredith was not bound, but she was unable to instinctively protect herself from a knife attack to her neck ... from two directions. That just doesn't make sense if she was not restrained. You make a good point that most single assailant rapists probably restrain the victim right away.

 

[aa9511]

Thank you for clearly stating the only DNA evidence found in Meredith's bedroom:

a single trace of Guede due to sexual assault
a single trace of Sollecito on the bra
a single trace of Guede on the shirt
a trace on the bag has nothing to do with the fight

Anyone that can add to the list of DNA evidence in the bedroom, please add. I think it's important to see whether the room was filled with Guede's DNA, or whether it was fortunate that any was found.

Oh wow. That is certainly a different picture than what we've been led to believe on this thread. I have heard so many times, Rudy's DNA "all over." Or "so much Rudy DNA." Or different variations of that.

 

[redheadedgal]

Rudy's footprints also showed up in luminol. Those were in blood. Amanda's footprints show up in luminol, but yet those aren't in blood, those are in some undetermined manner?

RG's shoeprints (and bathmat footprint imo) were all in visible blood. no luminol was required to see them.

the luminol prints?? none of the stains tested positive for blood. none.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...-bloody-footprints-tested-negative-for-blood/

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-01.html

 

[otto]

Oh wow. That is certainly a different picture than what we've been led to believe on this thread. I have heard so many times, Rudy's DNA "all over." Or "so much Rudy DNA." Or different variations of that.

I'm sure that if there is more DNA than the four points listed above, someone will point it out. I think it's important to get a clear picture of the DNA in the bedroom. There seems to be a suggestion that it is astounding that Knox's DNA is not all over the bedroom. The implication is that if her DNA is not all over the place, she was not there. I think it is fortunate that DNA from Guede was found. Guede's DNA is in two places and he admits to being there. Sollecito's DNA is in one place and he denies being there. Knox lived there and her DNA is not found, not even on her own possessions that are in the bedroom.

There are fingerprints associated with Guede and there is allegedly a handprint and a shoeprint on a pillow case. The handprint apparently belongs to Guede and the shoeprint has been attributed to Knox because it is the exact size of her shoe.

 

[Yellow]

:truce:

Those shoes, tracking from Meredith's bedroom out the front door, were never found. The prosecutor stated that only blood would have left the evidence revealed by luminol. I guess we'll have to see how the court rules.

If Filomina's bedroom is the "rock room", there is a mixture of Knox DNA and Meredith's blood on a piece of glass in Filomina's bedroom.

It is my understanding that those bloody footprints match RG and that although they never found the exact shoe RG admitted he owned a shoe of such a type

There were multiple instances of mixed AK and MK DNA. Testing was done by the tetra substance and it was not blood. Mixed DNA is consistent with cohabitation. They found mixed AK and RS DNA in RS apartment. I think the prosecutor would be making a much bigger stink about this if it would otherwise.

 

[otto]

RG's shoeprints (and bathmat footprint imo) were all in visible blood. no luminol was required to see them.

the luminol prints?? none of the stains tested positive for blood. none.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...-bloody-footprints-tested-negative-for-blood/

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-01.html

I didn't realize that Guede's bloody shoe prints, running from Meredith's bedroom, down the hall and out the door, were clearly visible on the day that the murder was discovered. Why didn't anyone notice them?

 

[Yellow]

RG also had a visible cut to his right hand. MK probably tried to deflect the knife away from her and that is how he got that

 

[aa9511]

I agree that at some point she would have realized this is not a rape and there would be a natural instinct to fight. But that might have happened in an instant after he made the first supericial stabs. We also do not know if she was restrained how she was. It would be one scenario that other people were in the room, even though there is not evidence that other people were in the room nor was there evidence they were holding her down. Wouldn't there be touch DNA if they were holding her down? They would have had to tightly hold her, how did they do that without either leaving fingerprints or touch DNA?

Another possibility is that she was restrained in another matter, maybe tied up and RG took that evidence from the scene

Another possibility is that RG was sufficient to restrain her. It would not be unheard of to not leave defensive wounds in a single perp case. RG looks like a very strong guy.

Still another, though this is very remote, is that there are some unidentified people involved in the murder.

In any event what defensive wounds do you want her to have? Not everyone has long fingernails. She could have very well fought back but left evidence more on HIM as opposes to her. If you hit someone you don't always bruise yourself. She could have been spitting on him, kicked him, who knows? When you kick someone do you leave a mark on your leg? Mostly not,

I don't think the absence of defensive wounds means she did not fight back. She either was immobilized quickly with the first 5-6 strikes or she fought back and did not leave evidence or she was restrained, though she need not have been restrained just by people, it could have been her hands were tied.

And while the absence of defensive wounds can be added to the pile of circumstantial evidence, it does not necessarily mean that 3 people killed her.

Yellow, you sure do make it interesting around here

 

[otto]

:truce:

It is my understanding that those bloody footprints match RG and that although they never found the exact shoe RG admitted he owned a shoe of such a type

There were multiple instances of mixed AK and MK DNA. Testing was done by the tetra substance and it was not blood. Mixed DNA is consistent with cohabitation. They found mixed AK and RS DNA in RS apartment. I think the prosecutor would be making a much bigger stink about this if it would otherwise.

The prosecutor has stated that the evidence revealed by luminol can only be interpreted as blood. We'll have to wait for the verdict in January to know whether that is accepted.

 

[otto]

RG also had a visible cut to his right hand. MK probably tried to deflect the knife away from her and that is how he got that

Actually, it's not uncommon for perpetrators of knife attacks to also have a cut on a hand due to the hand sliding down the knife during the attack. That can happen.

 

[Yellow]

The prosecutor has stated that the evidence revealed by luminol can only be interpreted as blood. We'll have to wait for the verdict in January to know whether that is accepted.

But even if blood, it was DNA tested and it is not MK, so where would it have come from. You would only be leaving bloody footprints in the victims blood bc no one else would generate so much blood.

Luminol also reacts w rusts from tap water, cleaning products, etc. if AK was running from the shower she could have tracked the luminol reacting stuff from cleaning products in the shower.

You have to apply force to stab someone. It would be hard to restrain someone without shoes.

Pics on that pro innocence website cited above show visible signs of the RG bloody prints. It is faint so I could see why it would not be totally obvious, especially given the commotion that morning but you definitely can see blood. But why wouldn't AK have scrubbed them all away? She may not have known they were not RS. Besides,why would she want RG be caught at all? He could have turned on her (as he did). Better to leave the crime unsolved I think in her mind.

 

[aa9511]

RG's shoeprints (and bathmat footprint imo) were all in visible blood. no luminol was required to see them.

the luminol prints?? none of the stains tested positive for blood. none.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...-bloody-footprints-tested-negative-for-blood/

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-01.html

Hmmm.....ok so did they find any of Laura or the other roomate's footprints under Luminol, or for that matter, Meredith's footprints? Because going by those reports, since there was no blood supposedly, they were just regular ol' footprints. Why, then, are there no footprints showing for Meredith, who would have been walking around in the house on the day of, and in the days prior to, the murder.

It doesn't make sense. Those were footprints in blood, as shown by the Luminol. That is why both Rudy and Amanda's footprints showed under the Luminol.

 

[Yellow]

Actually, it's not uncommon for perpetrators of knife attacks to also have a cut on a hand due to the hand sliding down the knife during the attack. That can happen.

Yeah, that could happen too. I think though that is more likely to happen if the victim is wiggling. It may be MK was knocked out pretty quick but if she had the capacity to I am sure she was doing something

I think she was knocked out pretty quick bc why wasn't there more screaming? I am not sure how far away other houses are but if the attack was other than say under a minute I would think she would be screaming like anything, surely neighbors would have heard continual screaming ( provided that is possible, I am not sure how soundproof the house was.) but the window in the next door would have been open, sound could have got out. maybe there was no one to hear though.