Analyzing the Ramsey family

[UKGuy]

Yep -- how about that?! When that was discovered, that's when I think the true investigation started to slow down.

borndem,
Sure and BPD have never released the complete dna analysis reports, e.g. is Burke Ramsey's dna on JonBenet and where?

Similar for John and Patsy except their dna can be expected by default unless it semen, etc.

The slow down in the investigation is curious in the sense was it driven by the Ramsey's being extremely wealthy, also that they knew some key people locally, or was it due to Burke's age, i.e. Colorado Child Statutes, etc?

BPD never really tried hard in this case, they just followed all the procedures and asked the usual questions, and on occassion never bothered with obvious follow up questions!

The case is alike a Columbo Movie where we all think we know who killed JonBenet, the investigators go round saying Excuse me Sir Just one more question, please?, nobody answers or they conveniently forget.

As the end nears we expect it all to be revealed just like in the Columbo Movies, and it might just happen if John passes on and Burke does public interviews to try and combat all those doing media interviews for their ten-minutes of fame, it might become patently obvious who killed JonBenet?

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[borndem]

"Let me tell you about the very rich," wrote F. Scott Fitzgerald
"They are different from you and me."

 

[clv129]

so you mean its like the whole house was wiped clean? I thought I heard there was DNA found on Jon Benet... her nails or something... ill have to search documentaries and refresh myself on this case... thanks

 

[angelevie]

I have never understood why this case hasn't been solved by DNA

because the minuscule amount of "unidentified" DNA that was supposedly found in JonBenét's underwear wasn't significant enough of a presence to be able to tell anything about who it may belong to. the only thing that could be conclusively deduced about it was that it was human. basically, DNA tests were inconclusive because not enough "complete" DNA strands were present to properly tell whether the DNA was even male or female, let alone even more in-depth details. a stranger who molested and murdered a little girl within the past 24 hours of her autopsy would have left a lot more DNA than was found on JonBenét's underwear, especially considering this crime scene wasn't exactly the work of a seasoned criminal who might know how to disguise their biological footprint.

the package this pair of underwear came from was recently opened, if I remember correctly, as they had been bought as a gift or something right around that time, and years later, the "foreign" DNA was studied again with newer technology and it became clear it was likely trace amounts of DNA from factory workers who manufactured the underwear before JonBenét even owned them, if it were a stranger's DNA on there at all. testing a pair of brand new underwear fresh out of a package without having been touched by anyone in the sterile laboratory revealed that trace amounts of human DNA — the same, minuscule amount found on JonBenét's underwear that was unable to give conclusive details — were still found.

so, if no one that wasn't in the house left their DNA on JonBenét, that means no one was there that night who wasn't supposed to be there. DNA evidence can't solve this case because you can't expect a parent not to have physical contact with their young daughter who still needs help getting dressed, bathed, changed after bed-wetting, etc. or her items, so you need to find other evidence that would be incriminating.

long story short, this case didn't have any DNA that wasn't expected to be there. circumstantial evidence was necessary to solve JonBenét's death, but the media (and the Ramseys) stirred the sensation pot and cranked the rumor mill enough that circumstantial evidence and public opinion became muddled and solving the case in a satisfactory manner became pretty much impossible, because everybody developed a strong bias either towards or against the family. you can't charge someone with murder in cases of circumstantial evidence when 50% of a jury think they did it and another 50% think they didn't do it. "innocent until proven guilty" is a hallmark of criminal justice pretty much everyone has heard.
if any person in that house was found guilty, John and Patsy would both come under serious fire — either because one or both killed JonBenét and then covered it up together, or because Burke (who was a minor at the time and therefore couldn't be and wouldn't be tried the same way) accidentally hurt her and then John and Patsy finished the job and covered it up together. both of which are very, very illegal, obviously... the sentence both Ramsey parents would have been given wasn't a slap on the wrist — they would have been doing significant time, for one reason or the other. that would leave Burke with parents in prison and a dead little sister, and not even the court of law is willing to do that without 100% proof positive evidence, which wasn't obtained due to a botched crime scene and swayed investigation due to media frenzy.

(hope this was a clear response, I'm in a bit of a rush right now but wanted to respond with some of my thoughts! c: )

 

[angelevie]

Jon Benet Ramsey was the first True Crime case I ever followed on the internet from essentially day 1 (or maybe 2 3 or 4). Started on UseNet. Joined a forum but can't recall name or find now. Bought and read 3-4 books over the next several years.

Why was Grandfather Dan Paugh considered as a suspect (not that Patsy and maybe John were in on the cover up)?

He was at the party on December 23 where there was the aborted 911 call.

He worked at Access Graphics and lived in Denver and thus knew about the specifics of and had regular contact with the core John Ramsey family. He was there for Christmas yet was absent in the immediate time following the murder.

Incest can be multi-generational.

I agree! sexual abuse is usually something passed down. however, I think Mr Paugh was considered a suspect purely because he is a close relative and he lived nearby at the time of JonBenét's death. the family members are always the first suspects in a child's murder and ones that live close to the child are higher up on that list! I'm sure he didn't want to be anywhere near that crime scene, I mean who would with all that was going on? if he was even awake at that early hour during the holidays to be informed about the situation, it was a pretty full house over at the Ramsey's and crowding more people in there would not have helped locate JonBenét any faster. and I'm also pretty positive that by the time he would have made his way over there (Denver is still a good 45-minute drive from Boulder and snow can compound that), her body would have been found in the house and the crime scene would have been locked down.

about the 911 call, I know of a lot of instances of parties where things get out of hand and the police get called for otherwise mundane reasons... but, I don't have all the information on that party so I can't really say what I think for sure!

thanks for the response!

 

[angelevie]

borndem.
Yes they are very secretive, but they call this being private.

Those that have been through the top universities consider themselves to be above others, they are in private unashamedly elitist.

In public they all do the Machivellian double talk regarding aspiring to fine goals, and virtue signaling, etc.

The main obvious difference is their money and ability to purchase their way out of any situation, e.g. Jeffrey Epstein.

Paraphrasing, scripture say to those that have more will be given, or in modern economic jargon its called the Cantillon effect, i.e. those first in line after the Fed' hands out its greenbacks, gratis!

So there can be no doubt John Ramsey called in some favors after JonBenet was murdered, thus preparing his defense?

Yet, once things had calmed down, and time had put distance between John and JonBenet's murder, he decided to run for Republican Office.

Its alleged they took his money but declined to allow him to participate in the Republican Party.

He was blackballed.

John absolutely arranged protection for himself and his remaining family that day. why else would he "disappear" to his office alone for an hour or so while his baby daughter is, in his (supposed) belief, missing and in danger? what is so important to do at that time that can't involve the police on the scene? why couldn't the police be in his office with him, if he was simply arranging the ransom money? BPD has, IMO, always looked the other way for the Ramseys, because of the sense of "community pride" Boulder has. they didn't want "their own good wealthy people" to be guilty of something so sordid and horrible, so they closed their eyes and didn't investigate properly or allow people who would investigate properly to take the case. I've been there and I know lots of people from there... they really do live in a perfect rich people bubble over there. the only difference between now and then is that Boulder is strictly liberal now and conservativism is pretty much shunned, which I find super odd considering it's a bunch of ridiculously rich and ostentatious Gatsby-esque people.

the Ramsey name is pretty much cursed at this point. it's a good thing Burke is a reserved guy who just wants to lay low. all the drama and speculation surrounding them, and the questionable things they've said on live television and in books they've written regarding JonBenét's death... not great. being a figure-head or anything like that would always cause problems. not even the Republican Party is going to sign up to look that bad. they'll defend people who are already long-time + "successful" party-line members, aka Kavanaugh, Trump, even Epstein, but they won't take on dirty laundry. too much work for not a lot of pay off. I never saw John Ramsey as this super charismatic man who had a way with words or anything, he was always kind of bumbling especially next to the show-woman Patsy was. so what would he even be doing in the office other than being a source of discourse because of his past? he's better off keeping the money he made in business and living out his days. even if he's not directly guilty of killing JonBenét, he did and said things afterward that turn people off, and that'll always follow him no matter how much time passes. people haven't and won't forget JonBenét.

sometimes, the court of public opinion is the only one that matters.

 

[Me66]

The court of public opinion indeed.

The Ramseys are/were just very unrelatable and unlikeable people. Their lifestyle, their house, their private jet, the beauty pageants, the holier-than-thou facade. And totally oblivious to how they appear to others outside of their insular bubble.

They were never going to be popular with the general public.

 

[David Rogers]

I agree! sexual abuse is usually something passed down. however, I think Mr Paugh was considered a suspect purely because he is a close relative and he lived nearby at the time of JonBenét's death. the family members are always the first suspects in a child's murder and ones that live close to the child are higher up on that list! I'm sure he didn't want to be anywhere near that crime scene, I mean who would with all that was going on? if he was even awake at that early hour during the holidays to be informed about the situation, it was a pretty full house over at the Ramsey's and crowding more people in there would not have helped locate JonBenét any faster. and I'm also pretty positive that by the time he would have made his way over there (Denver is still a good 45-minute drive from Boulder and snow can compound that), her body would have been found in the house and the crime scene would have been locked down.

about the 911 call, I know of a lot of instances of parties where things get out of hand and the police get called for otherwise mundane reasons... but, I don't have all the information on that party so I can't really say what I think for sure!

thanks for the response!

I read that Mr Paugh flew standby on the morning after the hang up 911 call. Was he trying to get away or confront someone on Atlanta that had a semen stained blanket and adult Dr Seuss book in a suitcase?

 

[Beltonian]

Maybe Mr Paugh was dispatched by John to get in touch with JAR asap. JAR was never properly investigated. I wonder if anybody did some reading on how they explained his semen on that blanket in suitcase? Or police even asked this question?

 

[borndem]

The court of public opinion indeed.

The Ramseys are/were just very unrelatable and unlikeable people. Their lifestyle, their house, their private jet, the beauty pageants, the holier-than-thou facade. And totally oblivious to how they appear to others outside of their insular bubble.

They were never going to be popular with the general public.

Plus, they weren't Boulder "natives." In certain cities, I've certainly seen this in certain cities in the South, (which, of course, Boulder isn't), old established cities where "certain" families have been for several generations, everyone in "those families" knows each other, parties are usually exclusive, college athletic parties are specific to certain teams, pews in "certain" churches are always occupied by the same families, "those people" only do business with "those people," etc., etc. This is certainly not restricted to only the South by any means.
The Ramseys were not of that set in Boulder. They had lived there for several years, but they nor their forbears had been there for several generations, etc., etc. I feel sure the Ramseys had to have noticed, at least a little bit. And who were they to try to be "holier than thou" when they had nothing to be "holier than thou" about in that town, but they tried, as you said, @Me66. But money helps bend that rule a bit, and that's kind of where they were, IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

Whew! Didn't know that -- I did know he was thinking about running, but I didn't know the rest of the story, as they say. Hmmm. Interesting, that. What does it say about John Ramsey and what does it say about the Republican Party. (Does a leopard ever change his spots??)

borndem,
It was probably at this point that John realized exactly what the full consequences of JonBenet's death might mean.

The Republican Party with its legal connections were likely tipped off regarding whether JonBenet's death was an inside or intruder homicide?

Its also a measure of John's state of mind that as a suspect in one of America's biggest homicide cases, that he should consider running for Republican Office!

The Republican Party did not want to know him, so John moved on. I think he found employment difficult to come by.

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[UKGuy]

Plus, they weren't Boulder "natives." In certain cities, I've certainly seen this in certain cities in the South, (which, of course, Boulder isn't), old established cities where "certain" families have been for several generations, everyone in "those families" knows each other, parties are usually exclusive, college athletic parties are specific to certain teams, pews in "certain" churches are always occupied by the same families, "those people" only do business with "those people," etc., etc. This is certainly not restricted to only the South by any means.
The Ramseys were not of that set in Boulder. They had lived there for several years, but they nor their forbears had been there for several generations, etc., etc. I feel sure the Ramseys had to have noticed, at least a little bit. And who were they to try to be "holier than thou" when they had nothing to be "holier than thou" about in that town, but they tried, as you said, @Me66. But money helps bend that rule a bit, and that's kind of where they were, IMO.

borndem,
The Ramsey's were out of their depth in Boulder, particularly Patsy. As recently moneyed a lot of their attempts to fit in locally would have been laughed at privately, e.g. showing your house off to the public, etc.

Patsy wanted to be seen socially as a cultured person but lacked the knowledge to pull it off despite spending a lot of Johns money on various artworks.

With those that counted being fully aware Patsy was entering JonBenet in Pageant competitions, they were never going to move far up the social ladder.

Despite Patsy's obvious intelligence her social smarts let her down both wrt Burke and JonBenet and probably propelled her on a course towards a negative outcome, which sadly happened.

.

 

[UKGuy]

John absolutely arranged protection for himself and his remaining family that day. why else would he "disappear" to his office alone for an hour or so while his baby daughter is, in his (supposed) belief, missing and in danger? what is so important to do at that time that can't involve the police on the scene? why couldn't the police be in his office with him, if he was simply arranging the ransom money? BPD has, IMO, always looked the other way for the Ramseys, because of the sense of "community pride" Boulder has. they didn't want "their own good wealthy people" to be guilty of something so sordid and horrible, so they closed their eyes and didn't investigate properly or allow people who would investigate properly to take the case. I've been there and I know lots of people from there... they really do live in a perfect rich people bubble over there. the only difference between now and then is that Boulder is strictly liberal now and conservativism is pretty much shunned, which I find super odd considering it's a bunch of ridiculously rich and ostentatious Gatsby-esque people.

the Ramsey name is pretty much cursed at this point. it's a good thing Burke is a reserved guy who just wants to lay low. all the drama and speculation surrounding them, and the questionable things they've said on live television and in books they've written regarding JonBenét's death... not great. being a figure-head or anything like that would always cause problems. not even the Republican Party is going to sign up to look that bad. they'll defend people who are already long-time + "successful" party-line members, aka Kavanaugh, Trump, even Epstein, but they won't take on dirty laundry. too much work for not a lot of pay off. I never saw John Ramsey as this super charismatic man who had a way with words or anything, he was always kind of bumbling especially next to the show-woman Patsy was. so what would he even be doing in the office other than being a source of discourse because of his past? he's better off keeping the money he made in business and living out his days. even if he's not directly guilty of killing JonBenét, he did and said things afterward that turn people off, and that'll always follow him no matter how much time passes. people haven't and won't forget JonBenét.

sometimes, the court of public opinion is the only one that matters.

angelevie,

sometimes, the court of public opinion is the only one that matters.

100% agree. It took John a long time to figure this out. Now that he has, he now acts as a consultant to many and varied media companies that want to air JonBenet shows.

Which of course as Burke recently found out to his cost, i.e. Dr Phil, can swing public opinion.

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[borndem]

borndem,
It was probably at this point that John realized exactly what the full consequences of JonBenet's death might mean.

The Republican Party with its legal connections were likely tipped off regarding whether JonBenet's death was an inside or intruder homicide?

Its also a measure of John's state of mind that as a suspect in one of America's biggest homicide cases, that he should consider running for Republican Office!

The Republican Party did not want to know him, so John moved on. I think he found employment difficult to come by.

.

Good post! Makes sense. Why would Ramsey want to be out in the public as he certainly would have been if he'd made a run -- did he not consider what the opposing party might have at least mentioned things, if not gone stronger than that?
I'm sure the republican party -- or any party -- would not have wanted to have to deal with that and other baggage related to it. The situation with JonB had not disappeared at that time, and it won't disappear for years to come e.g., this thread -- here we are, even more years later. Interesting dynamics there. What was he thinking?

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting the discussion angelevie.

Tricia

 

[Veronica Lodge]

100% agree. It took John a long time to figure this out. Now that he has, he now acts as a consultant to many and varied media companies that want to air JonBenet shows.

I think John figured that out nice and quick actually, and has always controlled the interviews he gave. Sometimes he would just sit back and let Patsy run a little wild, but then he'd take control again (or so he thought, the lip licking gives him away at times).

Which of course as Burke recently found out to his cost, i.e. Dr Phil, can swing public opinion.

Poor Burke was/is part of John's story of innocence. I think Dr Phil wasn't lying about Burke. He was a nervous guy who is just a quiet guy trying to live normally. I'd like to ask Dr Phil what he honestly thinks of John though, without lawyers present, his true feeling after meeting and interviewing him.

 

[UKGuy]

I think John figured that out nice and quick actually, and has always controlled the interviews he gave. Sometimes he would just sit back and let Patsy run a little wild, but then he'd take control again (or so he thought, the lip licking gives him away at times).


Poor Burke was/is part of John's story of innocence. I think Dr Phil wasn't lying about Burke. He was a nervous guy who is just a quiet guy trying to live normally. I'd like to ask Dr Phil what he honestly thinks of John though, without lawyers present, his true feeling after meeting and interviewing him.

Veronica Lodge

I think John figured that out nice and quick actually, and has always controlled the interviews he gave. Sometimes he would just sit back and let Patsy run a little wild, but then he'd take control again (or so he thought, the lip licking gives him away at times).

Ole Lizard Lips liked to be in charge, I'll bet this is why Patsy detested his intimate requests, all part of a power display narrative?

Poor Burke was/is part of John's story of innocence. I think Dr Phil wasn't lying about Burke. He was a nervous guy who is just a quiet guy trying to live normally. I'd like to ask Dr Phil what he honestly thinks of John though, without lawyers present, his true feeling after meeting and interviewing him.

Dr Phil would never tell while JR is alive he knows Lin Wood would litigate for John, yet he is obviously qualified to make an assessment.

Another interesting point is when John leaves us is who gains control of the Ramsey Estate/Office, his latest wife or Burke?

.

 

[Veronica Lodge]

Another interesting point is when John leaves us is who gains control of the Ramsey Estate/Office, his latest wife or Burke?

I'm guessing a bone or two will be thrown Burke's way but his latest wife will no doubt be the main drain. She's blonde, a pageant dress designer and does what John tells her to do - a very nice replacement JonBenet for him, ugh.

 

[angelevie]

I'm guessing a bone or two will be thrown Burke's way but his latest wife will no doubt be the main drain. She's blonde, a pageant dress designer and does what John tells her to do - a very nice replacement JonBenet for him, ugh.

damn... John has a type, doesn't he..? ... I always thought he had "daughter issues" soon after JonBenét's birth because of Beth's tragic passing and I think this led him to be a little disengaged from JonBenét at times, except for when she was easy to handle. (no doubt JonBenét learned quickly to be easy to handle to receive attention and love from her parents. poor thing...) I have no doubt these "daughter issues" were only amplified after JonBenét's death and then the deal was sealed when Patsy died of cancer. just like how girls with "daddy issues" tend to seek out older men with abusive behaviors, it seems John seeks out women to connect with that remind him of his daughters — youthful, obedient, sweet Southern Belles... Patsy had that exterior for a while especially during her pageant days but she was a little too controlling behind closed doors, no doubt that exhausted someone like John who is used to an executive position and male privilege.

however, he simultaneously always seemed like a bit of a wuss to me. not really sure why I get this vibe, not everyone does...! my interpretation was that he deferred to Patsy a lot, IMO, just to keep things easy. John likes things to be easy for him. seems he likes women who can either occupy themselves without needing/desiring anything from him or just do whatever he likes without any conflict.

I somehow feel like, John won't give control of the estate and office to any woman, especially not one who is blood-related. the Ramseys seem very traditional that way. I think it will be given to one of his sons; maybe not Burke completely but divided up between the boys for sure. the executor of the estate would probably be his oldest son...? but I really don't know... I'm not sure how into his current wife he is or what the dynamic there is like! I definitely am not as up to date on the ongoing workings of the Ramsey family beyond Patsy's passing.

 

[oviedo]

I'm guessing a bone or two will be thrown Burke's way but his latest wife will no doubt be the main drain. She's blonde, a pageant dress designer and does what John tells her to do - a very nice replacement JonBenet for him, ugh.

I suspect a pre-nup was done if JR has any money left? second marriages can be tricky when you have adult children IMO. I would guess JR will insure BR is cared for IMO