Andrew Kinsman, 49, Toronto, 26 June 2017

[G.Smiley]

The Black Eagle on Church St and the Cabbagetown piece seem to make sense in terms of common locations. Is anyone aware of popular hangout spots for gay men in the latter neighbourhood?

Black Eagle is a sort of (tame) rough trade bar, known around the area as a bear hangout. This is a crowd that is more likely to meet and engage in person than over an app, in part because it's a generational thing. The other piece, which doesn't get talked about as much, is that in person meetings can help to avoid folks who might be discriminatory on online dating apps (whether it's about race, Nationlirt, HIV status, etc.). This does require close personal interaction though, and the use of certain kinds of vaguely coded messaging (think handkerchiefs in the back pocket, but for 2017).

I would be interested to know what kind of camera coverage they have. Some of the media pieces referenced the Black Eagle having a "dark room", which typically don't have surveillance. Older, more traditional gay bars also tended to have back entrances / entries that could not be viewed from the street (to provide anonymity to closeted people); does anyone know if Black Eagle does?

Then there is the matter of the gentleman whose car was found on the edge of a cruising spot, in a public park. Not much to go on based on the public reporting unfortunately — it's not clear why the reporting on that find wasn't larger.

It is curious that there are (tenuous) connections to in-person hookup spots that tend towards providing anonymity for visitors

The cat / dog / pets thing it harder for me. I can't see a clear pattern except that suppose it suggests these men are caring individuals. Who tend to take in troublesome or challenging cases?

The last thing to note here is that each of the missing guys is on the larger / taller side. A 6'2 guy doesn't just disappear forcably without a compelling reason.

 

[dotr]

This breaks my heart..
http://www.citynews.ca/2017/08/23/missing-man-andrew-kinsmans-sister-says-shes-lost-hope/
August 23 2017

Missing man Andrew Kinsman's sister says she's lost hope

“My gut feeling is he’s not with us anymore,” says Patricia Kinsman, the sister of missing Cabbagetown man Andrew Kinsman.

A prominent figure in the LGBTQ2 community, Kinsman disappeared without a trace nearly two months ago.

While his friends organize yet another search in hopes of finding any sign of him, Patricia says she’s lost hope.
“My heart tells me he’s dead,” she said, speaking exclusively with CityNews. “He went missing June 26 and I believe he was murdered that day because his phone was turned off and his cat was left for two days without food and water and he would never leave his 17-year-old cat unattended.”

On Thursday, Andrew’s friends will meet at the Don River Valley Park at 10 a.m. to conduct another search and are asking volunteers to join in. They aim to scour an area within walking distance of Andrew’s home, where an abandoned train track runs along the Don Valley trail and past Evergreen Brickworks.

 

[Elainera]

This breaks my heart..
http://www.citynews.ca/2017/08/23/missing-man-andrew-kinsmans-sister-says-shes-lost-hope/
August 23 2017

Yes mine too

I'm glad they're still searching though.

I wonder how is old cat is doing. At that age she might also decide to go soon if her beloved dad is not coming home ... I hope she is in good hands. It's what Andrew would've wanted.

 

[dotr]

Video, Andrew's sister.

Patricia Kinsman, the sister of missing Cabbagetown man Andrew Kinsman says she’s lost hope of finding her brother alive eight weeks after he disappeared. Adrian Ghobrial with her emotional plea for some form of closure.

Aug 23, 2017, 11:24 PM

http://www.citynews.ca/video/2017/0...n-andrew-kinsmans-sister-says-shes-lost-hope/

 

[Dalagali]

Friends search Don Valley: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ng-toronto-man-take-search-to-don-valley.html

In the depths of the Don Valley runs an abandoned railway track.

Over a nearby hill on the west side of the Rosedale Ravine Lands and Riverdale Farm, which sprawl parallel to the valley and its parkway, once lived 49-year-old Andrew Kinsman, who hasn’t been seen since June and one of at least two missing men from Toronto’s LGBTQ community.

On Thursday, a group of seven of his friends and strangers took to the largely-uncharted corridor of the valley to continue his search.

 

[G.Smiley]

Hello again. Doing a bit of background on the other individual that TPS have publically linked to Kinsman's disappearance, Selim Esen. Esen was reported missing on April 14, 2017.

There is one detail that jumps out at me that appears to have been overlooked by most of the media coverage.

The Daily Xtra, a local Toronto LGBTQ news publication, published an article earlier this month detailing some aspects of Esen's life prior to his disappearance:
https://www.dailyxtra.com/toronto-m...is-life-on-track-before-he-went-missing-77274

The piece notes that in March 2017, "he completed a week-long peer counselling course at St Stephen’s Community House in Toronto, which provides social services to vulnerable people in Kensington Market."

Recall that Kinsman works in HIV/AIDS health promotion. Taken as a single datapoint this seems insignificant, however when coupled with the other similarities it jumps out to me.

To review:

1) Both men are middle aged with facial hair, and fit into a similar type within the gay community, known as "Bears".
2) Both men are reported to have frequented the same bars — Bear hangouts (such as The Black Eagle).
3) Both men appear to have gone missing within the same (approximate) ten block radius of the Church-Wellesley Village.
4) Both men were reported missing on holiday long weekends.
5) Both men have focused their careers, at least in part, on non-profit community support / charitable work.

There is one other piece, which I'm a bit hesitant to linger over as it is unfortunately quite common in the gay community:
6) Both men are reportedly estranged to their families. Kinsman is referenced in multiple articles as "having grown apart" from his family "in recent years." A couple pieces go as far to say that they have not been in contact in years. Esen, meanwhile, reportedly had no contact with his family in Turkey — according to the above noted Daily Xtra piece, he was working up the courage to even come out to them.

Taken together, there seem to be a number of overlaps here, even without considering whatever it is that has led LE to link the two disappearances in their press releases.

 

[dotr]

Hello again. Doing a bit of background on the other individual that TPS have publically linked to Kinsman's disappearance, Selim Esen. Esen was reported missing on April 14, 2017.

There is one detail that jumps out at me that appears to have been overlooked by most of the media coverage.

The Daily Xtra, a local Toronto LGBTQ news publication, published an article earlier this month detailing some aspects of Esen's life prior to his disappearance:
https://www.dailyxtra.com/toronto-m...is-life-on-track-before-he-went-missing-77274

The piece notes that in March 2017, "he completed a week-long peer counselling course at St Stephen’s Community House in Toronto, which provides social services to vulnerable people in Kensington Market."

Recall that Kinsman works in HIV/AIDS health promotion. Taken as a single datapoint this seems insignificant, however when coupled with the other similarities it jumps out to me.

To review:

1) Both men are middle aged with facial hair, and fit into a similar type within the gay community, known as "Bears".
2) Both men are reported to have frequented the same bars — Bear hangouts (such as The Black Eagle).
3) Both men appear to have gone missing within the same (approximate) ten block radius of the Church-Wellesley Village.
4) Both men were reported missing on holiday long weekends.
5) Both men have focused their careers, at least in part, on non-profit community support / charitable work.

There is one other piece, which I'm a bit hesitant to linger over as it is unfortunately quite common in the gay community:
6) Both men are reportedly estranged to their families. Kinsman is referenced in multiple articles as "having grown apart" from his family "in recent years." A couple pieces go as far to say that they have not been in contact in years. Esen, meanwhile, reportedly had no contact with his family in Turkey — according to the above noted Daily Xtra piece, he was working up the courage to even come out to them.

Taken together, there seem to be a number of overlaps here, even without considering whatever it is that has led LE to link the two disappearances in their press releases.

Thanks for posting that link with the much needed extra information about Selim, will post it on his thread too.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?344921-Canada-Selim-Esen-44-Toronto-14-April-2017&p=13563401&highlight=Selim+Esen#post13563401
[h=2]Canada - Selim Esen, 44, Toronto, 14 April 2017[/h]

 

[Tripplogan]

Thanks for posting that link with the much needed extra information about Selim, will post it on his thread too.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?344921-Canada-Selim-Esen-44-Toronto-14-April-2017&p=13563401&highlight=Selim+Esen#post13563401
[h=2]Canada - Selim Esen, 44, Toronto, 14 April 2017[/h]

Thank you for the great posts.My Spidey senses tell me the disappearance of these two men (at least) is related. Their work with the community is intriguing. I tend to think the cat connection is unrelated. Gay people in general are animal lovers and tend to have "fur babies." As you noted, the estrangement from their families is also not uncommon in the LGBT community. But the other connections seem important. I am also intrigued by the long weekend angle. Is someone travelling to Toronto to stalk gay men or does this person's life style make holiday weekends the most convenient time to do what they do?

 

[street maggid]

Both men also have gay male/bear friends in Australia. Andrew was reported to have discussed getting together with his Australian friends over Pride. Selim has friends in Australia on his Facebook page. These men are bears. Both men were attracted to older daddy types: bigger, facial and body hair etc. Andrew mentions this attraction in Facebook posts and judging by some of the men on Selim's friends list he had the same attraction.

I don't think that pets, family issues or the Black Eagle are entirely relevant or relevant at all to the disappearances. The same with the dating apps TPS are currently scouring for evidence. I think the most relevant links will be found in cruising parks. I am not feeling the social service/charity worker connection.

I believe that the disappearances are connected. My thinking is that these men were abducted in cruising parks near to where they live. One of them men from 2010 - 2012 left his car at a park. The person (or persons) responsible for their disappearances may have used dating apps to track them - but they were probably smart enough to not be in direct contact with them online. Selim didn't have a phone according to the article so he was online at home. Andrew's phone was turned off within hours of his going out for coffee with friends. He told a tenant he was going for coffee with friends and one of the other tenants in his building said that she couldn't get a hold of him early in the evening. He went out in the afternoon after dropping off a key. Whatever happened it was quick and most likely occurred 2:00 - 6:00 p.m.

 

[dotr]

Both men also have gay male/bear friends in Australia. Andrew was reported to have discussed getting together with his Australian friends over Pride. Selim has friends in Australia on his Facebook page. These men are bears. Both men were attracted to older daddy types: bigger, facial and body hair etc. Andrew mentions this attraction in Facebook posts and judging by some of the men on Selim's friends list he had the same attraction.

I don't think that pets, family issues or the Black Eagle are entirely relevant or relevant at all to the disappearances. The same with the dating apps TPS are currently scouring for evidence. I think the most relevant links will be found in cruising parks. I am not feeling the social service/charity worker connection.

I believe that the disappearances are connected. My thinking is that these men were abducted in cruising parks near to where they live. One of them men from 2010 - 2012 left his car at a park. The person (or persons) responsible for their disappearances may have used dating apps to track them - but they were probably smart enough to not be in direct contact with them online. Selim didn't have a phone according to the article so he was online at home. Andrew's phone was turned off within hours of his going out for coffee with friends. He told a tenant he was going for coffee with friends and one of the other tenants in his building said that she couldn't get a hold of him early in the evening. He went out in the afternoon after dropping off a key. Whatever happened it was quick and most likely occurred 2:00 - 6:00 p.m.

Welcome to Ws street maggid!
Thinking that you are probably right on with your theory, although i assumed that if the missing men were bears, that they would attract men looking for as you suggest, bigger, hairy " older daddy types ", as opposed to looking for that type themselves.
Would there be parking at the " cruising parks near to where they live "?
If i recall correctly, the car belonging to one of the 3 men who went missing several years ago, was located near a cemetery at Mount Pleasant/ St Clair, has that area has been searched?
Wondering if there have been any cases of " bears " going missing in Australia?
imo, speculation.

 

[dotr]

Fwiw.
http://www.sbs.com.au/topics/feature/out-sight-untold-story-adelaides-gay-hate-murders

 

[street maggid]

Hello.

The attraction would be mutual. I would suggest that the last person or persons to see these men was of a similar type. I recall reading online that the area you reference was not searched by the task force assigned to Project Houston. This could be typical police linkage blindness. I think they are most likely on this now.

As for parking at cruising parks....not really my thing so I wouldn't know where to park. If you planning on cruising Toronto's gay shenanigans parks you can always look for reviews on cruising websites. Apparently the park area you reference is highly recommended all year long!

 

[dotr]

Hello.

The attraction would be mutual. I would suggest that the last person or persons to see these men was of a similar type. I recall reading online that the area you reference was not searched by the task force assigned to Project Houston. This could be typical police linkage blindness. I think they are most likely on this now.

As for parking at cruising parks....not really my thing so I wouldn't know where to park. If you planning on cruising Toronto's gay shenanigans parks you can always look for reviews on cruising websites. Apparently the park area you reference is highly recommended all year long!

The reason i asked about parking was because i wondered how/if a person was taken away it would be done without a vehicle nearby?
Could someone be easily hidden in those areas, thinking of " bears " and a cave/den like spot comes to mind.
imo, speculation.

 

[street maggid]

I doubt that they were taken anywhere. They are out there in one of those parks. These are large, wooded and full of critters areas of Toronto. Anything could be buried off of a trail in one of the GTA's ravine or naturally forested areas. Toronto has many cruising parks close to where these men were last located and these parks are close to the gay village on Church St.

 

[G.Smiley]

Has anyone mapped a social media / digital footprint for either Kinsman or Esen? I believe I've identified most of Kinsman's public social accounts on the major sites. They're relatively inactive, although I think his Instagram is worth a bit of manual digging through the followers / following.

I'm interested in Esen's apparent preference for desktop dating sites, and if Kinsman maintained any as well (seems that based on the reporting he was a smartphone / tablet user, but it's worth a look; I did manage to locate a reference to his activities on a popular site for furries, so I suspect there is more forum data that could be identified). Most of the desktop dating sites/apps appear to have web portals at the very least, if not actual websites where users maintain profiles. If nothing else, this would be useful in helping to build out a profile for him.

The Australian couple piece re: Kinsman is interesting as well. I'm curious as to why the police glazed over that pretty quickly in their media. Kinsman's FB has relatively closed privacy settings, so his friends list is inaccessible. I'm going to do a manual look through his recent posts (>1 year) to see if I can identify them that way. If they were engaging with stuff he posted, it would be a way to identify their profiles and start to understand their activities a bit more. Long shot, but this is a toughie.

Really appreciate all of your thoughts everyone. It's so very fortunate that sites such as this exist.

 

[Wondergirl]

Has anyone mapped a social media / digital footprint for either Kinsman or Esen? I believe I've identified most of Kinsman's public social accounts on the major sites. They're relatively inactive, although I think his Instagram is worth a bit of manual digging through the followers / following.

I'm interested in Esen's apparent preference for desktop dating sites, and if Kinsman maintained any as well (seems that based on the reporting he was a smartphone / tablet user, but it's worth a look; I did manage to locate a reference to his activities on a popular site for furries, so I suspect there is more forum data that could be identified). Most of the desktop dating sites/apps appear to have web portals at the very least, if not actual websites where users maintain profiles. If nothing else, this would be useful in helping to build out a profile for him.

The Australian couple piece re: Kinsman is interesting as well. I'm curious as to why the police glazed over that pretty quickly in their media. Kinsman's FB has relatively closed privacy settings, so his friends list is inaccessible. I'm going to do a manual look through his recent posts (>1 year) to see if I can identify them that way. If they were engaging with stuff he posted, it would be a way to identify their profiles and start to understand their activities a bit more. Long shot, but this is a toughie.

Really appreciate all of your thoughts everyone. It's so very fortunate that sites such as this exist.

Great post, thank-you.

I had no clue he was a furry or involved in such.

Noelle Paquette of Sarnia was murdered by 2 fetish furry people who made their fantasies become real life.

It's not out of the realm of possibility, that's for sure.

 

[street maggid]

Andrew and Selim are bears - I am not sure that is the same thing you are referencing. Gay bears are men who tend towards a little heavy (or a lot heavy) hairy bodies and facial hair. In Toronto these men tend to "play" with each other and meet at bars like the Black Eagle and Sunday dances. They also cruise parks, ravines and trails for fun and frolic with other like minded hirsute men. They use dating apps like Growlr and Scruff.

 

[dotr]

Andrew and Selim are bears - I am not sure that is the same thing you are referencing. Gay bears are men who tend towards a little heavy (or a lot heavy) hairy bodies and facial hair. In Toronto these men tend to "play" with each other and meet at bars like the Black Eagle and Sunday dances. They also cruise parks, ravines and trails for fun and frolic with other like minded hirsute men. They use dating apps like Growlr and Scruff.

Are an outdoors setting part of bears " play " as opposed to bringing someone home, for those men who are living alone and " out " ? speculation.

 

[street maggid]

The outdoors can definitely be part of "play" - as it is for many gay men, hence the activity in the parks....sorry about the double post. The full post follows....

 

[street maggid]

The outdoors can definitely be part of "play" - as it is for many gay men, hence the activity in the parks. Many times it is easier to have an anonymous encounter at a bathhouse or in a park, rather than bringing someone into your private space. Some of the men who cruise are married with wives and kids....and some are out gay dudes looking for some quick fun out in nature. This sort of hookup is also generational as the millennial set tend towards dating apps and hosting hook-ups. All of the TO missing men are middle-aged and (of course this is speculation) I would think generationally predisposed to the offline anonymous hook-up. Both Andrew and Selim were on the apps - but that doesn't mean they were lured online. These apps provide a GPS location of each user....you can easily track a handsome new friend all over the GTA just by looking at their profile. The apps are also notorious for app fatigue meaning that you can cruise on them all day long and end up hooking up with your hand. The parks are open all year round and many of the men on the apps are also in the parks because satisfaction is easier to obtain offline. This is why I am not sure the apps are the full story for how and why these men went missing....