Andrew Kinsman, 49, Toronto, 26 June 2017

[Samir112]

Hi I am just catching up with this thread, but these disappearances have really peaked my interest even back as a few years ago from when i first heard of the cases from 2010-2012.

I am no way any expert in criminal profiling (I did study a little psychology in university) but if we assume everyones worst fear that there is a serial killer loose in Toronto targeting gay men in the Church/Welesley neighbourhood I think there are two MO's possible.... Either the killer himself is homosexual and these would be murders motivated by a sexual nature or the opposite and these murders were motivated by hate so the killer would be disguising himself as gay on dating apps and is frequent around the Church/Welesley neighbourhood looking for targets.


But either way, these are the characteristics i think the killer would have based on the assumption that all these mens dissaperances are connected and they have all since perished.

- Someone highly intelligent for them to discard the bodies so effectively and avoid leaving any trail of evidence
- Someone mid to late 40's, university educated
- Someone charming but low key and an introvert
- Someone with above average income or someone with a lot of dispensable cash


One other note, does anyone know if Toronto police can get a warrant that all these dating apps these man were active on reveal which other members they chatted with and who they matched with and possible get transcripts of any messages that they sent/received?

 

[esldanmac]

Hi I am just catching up with this thread, but these disappearances have really peaked my interest even back as a few years ago from when i first heard of the cases from 2010-2012.

I am no way any expert in criminal profiling (I did study a little psychology in university) but if we assume everyones worst fear that there is a serial killer loose in Toronto targeting gay men in the Church/Welesley neighbourhood I think there are two MO's possible.... Either the killer himself is homosexual and these would be murders motivated by a sexual nature or the opposite and these murders were motivated by hate so the killer would be disguising himself as gay on dating apps and is frequent around the Church/Welesley neighbourhood looking for targets.


But either way, these are the characteristics i think the killer would have based on the assumption that all these mens dissaperances are connected and they have all since perished.

- Someone highly intelligent for them to discard the bodies so effectively and avoid leaving any trail of evidence
- Someone mid to late 40's, university educated
- Someone charming but low key and an introvert
- Someone with above average income or someone with a lot of dispensable cash


One other note, does anyone know if Toronto police can get a warrant that all these dating apps these man were active on reveal which other members they chatted with and who they matched with and possible get transcripts of any messages that they sent/received?

I am not a computer expert but I think it could be difficult to get this info without the phone. I remember a case in Philly where a guy had hooked up on adam4adam but his Android phone was locked and police claimed they couldn't get access. Poor kid was murdered and beaten beyond recognition. I also remember there was a problem with getting into the San Bernardino shooters Iphone.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

 

[Wondergirl]

Hi I am just catching up with this thread, but these disappearances have really peaked my interest even back as a few years ago from when i first heard of the cases from 2010-2012.

I am no way any expert in criminal profiling (I did study a little psychology in university) but if we assume everyones worst fear that there is a serial killer loose in Toronto targeting gay men in the Church/Welesley neighbourhood I think there are two MO's possible.... Either the killer himself is homosexual and these would be murders motivated by a sexual nature or the opposite and these murders were motivated by hate so the killer would be disguising himself as gay on dating apps and is frequent around the Church/Welesley neighbourhood looking for targets.


But either way, these are the characteristics i think the killer would have based on the assumption that all these mens dissaperances are connected and they have all since perished.

- Someone highly intelligent for them to discard the bodies so effectively and avoid leaving any trail of evidence
- Someone mid to late 40's, university educated
- Someone charming but low key and an introvert
- Someone with above average income or someone with a lot of dispensable cash


One other note, does anyone know if Toronto police can get a warrant that all these dating apps these man were active on reveal which other members they chatted with and who they matched with and possible get transcripts of any messages that they sent/received?

Hi Samir, you're profile is what I gave been thinking also.

The guy definitely has to be of higher level intelligence, if our worst fears are confirmed.

I do think the dating apps allow LE the backdoor to conversations, especially if connections can be made among users.

I'm sure Andrews family would allow access to his profile given the circumstances.

Where is Andrew?

 

[JetsFan24]

How do I look up missing persons in a certain area? I'd like to research if there are other men missing in surrounding areas as it seems a leap to go from 2010/2012 to now.

Thanks in advance!

Could the person committing these crimes have been jailed for a unrelated crime to murder from 2012 until now? And he or she could've recently been released from prison and back out there.

This is a sad case. All of them are sad, but it's even worse when you read of how well liked an individual wasn't in the community.

 

[Samir112]

The only possible lead I see that exists is the man Navaratnam left with from Zippers the last time he was seen. That individual is the key to this case, does anyone have any more information on this person?

 

[matou]

The only possible lead I see that exists is the man Navaratnam left with from Zippers the last time he was seen. That individual is the key to this case, does anyone have any more information on this person?

He was seen leaving the bar with the man in a car but I don't know if the make and model was noted ever. I know people who were there that night and who know him. Very sad.

 

[Samir112]

He was seen leaving the bar with the man in a car but I don't know if the make and model was noted ever. I know people who were there that night and who know him. Very sad.

was the car parked on Carleton street? i think its safe to presume if they got into the car the man must not live in the Church/Welesley neighbourhood himself and quite possibly does not even live downtown. Somebody must remember something else about this guy... clothes? race? age?

 

[matou]

was the car parked on Carleton street? i think its safe to presume if they got into the car the man must not live in the Church/Welesley neighbourhood himself and quite possibly does not even live downtown. Somebody must remember something else about this guy... clothes? race? age?

Now I can't find any car reference. I know that I have either read this or heard this directly. Take as rumour for now then.

I see that Black Eagle Leather Bar was another place that at least two of the Muslim men who disappeared years ago went to. Skanda was there the night he disappeared. Did Andrew frequent the Black Eagle too?

Reading back, there is a discrepancy in MSM as to whether Skanda left alone or with someone.

Though his medication had changed a week earlier, Cloutier said he didn't notice anything amiss when the pair went to their cottage south of Bancroft or to a barbecue at Black Eagle bar on Church St. in the days and hours before he vanished.

and

Navaratnam, whose family lives in Dubai, looked to be in a good mood when friends saw him leave Zipperz nightclub at Church and Carlton Sts. alone around 2 a.m. on Sept. 6, Cloutier said.

Just posting info about Skanda's case here in case there a connection with Andrew's case.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/23/15452641.html

 

[matou]

I see that Andrew used to work at the Black Eagle Leather Bar so there's a possible connection there. Did Andrew go to that bar on Sunday and was he on his way there on Monday?

 

[matou]

Justin Ling and the police have already noted the Black Eagle connection. Now, what about Selim? Did he go there too?

https://news.vice.com/story/the-mys...en-who-went-missing-from-torontos-gay-village

 

[dotr]

Just noting.
http://www.citynews.ca/2017/08/11/body-found-park-along-martin-goodman-trail/

Police say a body was found in a park along side the Martin Goodman Trail near Jameson Avenue on Friday morning.

 

[matou]

Just noting.
http://www.citynews.ca/2017/08/11/body-found-park-along-martin-goodman-trail/

No foul play reported for this body. RIP

 

[Ava_TO]

No foul play reported for this body. RIP

This newest article includes a photo of the body under a tarp (warning if you click). Looks to be a larger sized individual. So far, saying does not appear to be suspicious which I believe is how suicide is generally termed.

https://www.insidetoronto.com/news-...ke-ontario-near-marilyn-bell-park-in-toronto/

 

[Elainera]

This newest article includes a photo of the body under a tarp (warning if you click). Looks to be a larger sized individual. So far, saying does not appear to be suspicious which I believe is how suicide is generally termed.

https://www.insidetoronto.com/news-...ke-ontario-near-marilyn-bell-park-in-toronto/

I don't think it's Andrew. The body under the tarp appears to be big, as in bloated. If this was Andrew's body, after almost 7 weeks he would not be bloated anymore. imo

 

[dotr]

Bumping for Andrew and the other men who are still missing.
This scam affected men in Western Canada, but maybe something to keep in mind? imo, speculation
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...er-gay-men-out-of-80-000-police-say-1.3462302

[h=1]Dating fraud scammed older gay men out of $80,000, police say[/h]
[h=3]Two Calgary men charged in scam that targeted victims across western Canada[/h] CBC News Posted: Feb 24, 2016

The accused and their victims would connect online and set up a meeting at a public place, such as a movie theatre or coffee shop. The accused would get the target to pay for tickets or a drink. That would be the first chance to see the victim's pin code being used. The alleged fraudster would immediately suggest getting a refund, which offered a chance to confirm the pin code.

Then the pair would go somewhere to have sex.

"Basically, after they have their time with the complainant", Liew said, "they would steal their credit cards and debit cards from their wallets."

The accused then withdrew large amounts of cash — on average about $10,000 — from the victim's bank account. In most cases, the theft happened on the first date.

As soon as the accused stole the card, they moved onto the next target, police said.

One victim from Vancouver was an elderly man who was allegedly drugged with the date rape drug GHB.

All the complainants identified so far were 55 or older. Liew said that demographic was targeted for a reason.
"Because the accused believed that the complainants would be less (rather) than more willing to come forward once they realized they'd been defrauded", she said. "It is a discreet lifestyle that some victims might have."

 

[G.Smiley]

Hi folks, I'm working on this as a side to my regular work. I wonder if any of you have dug into broader patterns across North America? I'm interested in the point that VICE made re: holiday weekends. Seems to indicate travel, or at least some kind of commonality vis-a-vis large crowds.

 

[matou]

Hi folks, I'm working on this as a side to my regular work. I wonder if any of you have dug into broader patterns across North America? I'm interested in the point that VICE made re: holiday weekends. Seems to indicate travel, or at least some kind of commonality vis-a-vis large crowds.

Some possible patterns: bear-types, disappearances around holiday weekends, the Black Eagle bar, Cabbagetown (one was a live-in helper for an elderly man and another lived there), the Gay Village. Cats? Selim has a cat on his shoulders in a released photo of him and Andrew also has a cat that he would never leave purposely.

 

[dotr]

http://torontoist.com/2017/07/vanishing-men-torontos-gay-village/
July 30 2017
By James Dubro
rbbm.

These three men are Abdulbasir “Basir” Faizi, 44, and Majeed Kayhan, both from Afghanistan, and Skandaraj “Skanda” Navaratnam, a 40-year-old Sri Lankan refugee who was last seen leaving Zippers with another man. The only other bar specifically mentioned in some of these cases as having being visited by the men is the Black Eagle on Church Street. All three are linked primarily by their dark skin tone, their immigrant status, and for being known to “frequent the gay Village.”

Police at 51 Division launched “Project Houston,” and for 18 months searched searched cell phone, bank, and social media records, canvassed the Village, and interviewed friends and family of the missing men—but they have turned up cold.

The suggestion of a serial killer has not been ruled out by police, however it remains extremely unlikely.
The last known serial killings in Toronto were in the 1990s. One was the work of Marcello Palma, a serial killer who stalked and killed three trans sex workers on the “stroll” on Homewood Avenue over Victoria Day weekend in 1996. Palma was eventually captured and convicted in 2001 of first degree murder of all three killings.
Prior to that, there was the 1993 murder of Norman Rasky (brother of TV documentary film director Harry Rasky). Rasky was a 62-year-old resident of Charles Street in the Village and used to hang around Cawthra Park. His killer turned out be Terry Fitzsimmons, who murdered three people in three different cities over six days that year, including Rasky in Toronto, his hustler boyfriend in Ottawa, and another gay man in Montreal. Fitzsimmons was eventually convicted, but died by suicide in prison in 1995.

Police say there is yet no evidence that any of the men missing were murdered or victims of a serial killer. And, significantly, Richmond says, that the homicide department is not yet part of the teams looking into these disappearances.

“There is a balancing act associated with this, because there is a great deal of information which cannot be released in relation to this investigation,” Richmond told media.

 

[dotr]

Hi folks, I'm working on this as a side to my regular work. I wonder if any of you have dug into broader patterns across North America? I'm interested in the point that VICE made re: holiday weekends. Seems to indicate travel, or at least some kind of commonality vis-a-vis large crowds.

Welcome to Ws G. Smiley!
There is also this thread if you are interested in the three men who went missing from the area, they have individual threads too.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?211457-Canada-3-men-missing-in-same-Toronto-ON-neighborhood-2010-2012/page2&highlight=Majeed+Kayhan
Canada - 3 men missing in same Toronto ON neighborhood, 2010-2012

 

[G.Smiley]

Thank you! This is very helpful. Lots of stuff to familiarize with in both this and the other thread you linked to.