AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[gitana1]

So to me personally, I hear it in a different tone than you guys do...I hear that repentance is key, not screaming, not pouting...scream all you like, until the repentance is shown, I'll keep at it.
We don't know the personalities, we only hear snippets

You mean like beat the kid into repentance? Yeah, that's the tone I'm hearing too.

Gitana, I have a legal question... These kids were removed a couple weeks ago, right? How can they (authorities) still be investigating? Does it normally take this amount of time for the children to be kept away from the parents without the parents being charged with a crime? That article I linked is from the 20th. From what I can see they haven't been charged as of yet. I haven't been on here so maybe I'm missing something?

A criminal investigation can go on for 6 years if it is a felony or 1 year if a misdemeanor, in Arkansas. But typically, investigations would not last that long.

In a case like this, it actually hasn't been that long, considering kids are witnesses. When that is the case, it can take some time.

But what everyone needs to also know is that investigators and prosecutors are also simply taking the time to decide whether they should charge at all, considering a variety of factors other than only evidence, such as the impression witnesses will make, the hardship to witnesses if they are compelled to testify, in general, how easy it would be to prove their case and also, the political implications of pursuing charges.

So even if they have evidence to charge, they may hesitate if the politcal climate is one that could cost them the election. As we have seen, there are people who firmly believe people have the right to "chastise", "beat", "correct", or otherwise, keep going at it on a screaming child until they repent. There are people who firmly believe that if a family whose children are taken by CPS is Christian and home schools, they must be the victims of a vast left-wing conspiracy and there is no way any allegations could be true. There are people who will immediately call into question anything the government does when the subject is a conservative family.

And a huge number of those people live in Arkansas and vote in Arkansas.

So the implications of charging the parents in this case are undoubtedly being weighed by the state attorneys and the sheriff's department. Even if they feel they have strong evidence.

In any event, I feel that the odds are greater that the parents will escape prosecution. Because if the juvenile dependency court can keep the kids safe without criminal prosecution of the parents, then they may not want to risk political fallout from a prosecution of an ideologically sympathetic set of parents.

I think it is pretty clear that if this is going on, no one on this thread will think it is ok.

I would have thought that too, but I've read posts from two separate posters who don't seem to find that to be a problem!

 

[Confusion]

Here is a list of requirements to report by state. It may not be current to date.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/manda.pdf

I wonder how much the list of mandatory reporters has to do with the decision to home school and not seek medical care.

 

[gitana1]

They were NOT removed based on allegations of an anonymous caller. The LE statement makes it clear that they were removed because of what the responding officials personally observed while in the home and speaking with the children and parents.

Right. The allegations of the anonymous caller was what prompted them to investigate. The investigation results are what led to the removal. I'd be pretty horrified if the law allowed children to be removed simply due to allegations without substantiation.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

It's quite hard to believe that none of those children have ever needed to see a doctor. No ear infections, no wound requiring stitches, no vaccinations, no strep throat or scarlet fever, etc. I used my copy of Dr. Spock to analyze my son's illness, and when a doctor was recommended, I took him.

I just wanted to share this with you since you brought up medical treatment. At the 15 min mark in this video, this woman shares her tragic journey through her life as a result of not receiving medical treatment due to religious beliefs. A simple antibiotic would have prevented it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8pP1IcNHiw

 

[K_Z]

I just wanted to share this with you since you brought up medical treatment. At the 15 min mark in this video, this woman shares her tragic journey through her life as a result of not receiving medical treatment due to religious beliefs. A simple antibiotic would have prevented it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8pP1IcNHiw

BeginnersLuck, thanks for posting that. In the 1980s, I took care of a couple Christian Scientist children briefly, who died, who were brought in with very advanced cancer. In each situation, one terrified parent had to break with the church to bring in their child in to the hospital for care. One situation that I clearly remember, the cancer was so advanced the child died within a very short time, just a few days. One little girl of about 7 bled to death on my shift, vomiting blood and bleeding profusely from her nose. Her mother said she had been "spitting up blood" for over a year. I'll never forget that little girl, and the awful way she died. We tried everything, every blood product, etc. to save her, but it was too late.

This was my first job after college, and I was so traumatized, and I couldn't understand why these well dressed, modern, and loving parents hadn't sought treatment for their child sooner (I hadn't heard of Christian Scientists at that point in my life). I never quite got over the contrast between them, and the Amish and Mennonite families we saw, who eschewed electricity and modern conveniences at home, but were completely accepting of advanced and highly technical medical care for their sick children. It was a very multicultural area in a University pediatric hospital, and I learned and saw so much in my first years there. Much of it profoundly sad.

 

[Charlie09]

It's quite hard to believe that none of those children have ever needed to see a doctor. No ear infections, no wound requiring stitches, no vaccinations, no strep throat or scarlet fever, etc. I used my copy of Dr. Spock to analyze my son's illness, and when a doctor was recommended, I took him.

That explains a lot
has it been alleged the children were medically neglected?

 

[Charlie09]

I wonder how much the list of mandatory reporters has to do with the decision to home school and not seek medical care.

Where is this speculation from?
Is this a charge that they never sought medical care?

 

[K_Z]

That explains a lot
has it been alleged the children were medically neglected?

No, and it wasn't alleged that they were beaten at public school either.

I agree with gitana1 that they will probably escape prosecution and get their kids back. However, if that does happen, I am extremely hopeful that CPS involvement will be mandatory until the kids are all 18, and that any physical punishment will be prohibited as a condition of regaining custody.

 

[Charlie09]

You mean like beat the kid into repentance? Yeah, that's the tone I'm hearing too.



A criminal investigation can go on for 6 years if it is a felony or 1 year if a misdemeanor, in Arkansas. But typically, investigations would not last that long.

In a case like this, it actually hasn't been that long, considering kids are witnesses. When that is the case, it can take some time.

But what everyone needs to also know is that investigators and prosecutors are also simply taking the time to decide whether they should charge at all, considering a variety of factors other than only evidence, such as the impression witnesses will make, the hardship to witnesses if they are compelled to testify, in general, how easy it would be to prove their case and also, the political implications of pursuing charges.

So even if they have evidence to charge, they may hesitate if the politcal climate is one that could cost them the election. As we have seen, there are people who firmly believe people have the right to "chastise", "beat", "correct", or otherwise, keep going at it on a screaming child until they repent. There are people who firmly believe that if a family whose children are taken by CPS is Christian and home schools, they must be the victims of a vast left-wing conspiracy and there is no way any allegations could be true. There are people who will immediately call into question anything the government does when the subject is a conservative family.

And a huge number of those people live in Arkansas and vote in Arkansas.

So the implications of charging the parents in this case are undoubtedly being weighed by the state attorneys and the sheriff's department. Even if they feel they have strong evidence.

In any event, I feel that the odds are greater that the parents will escape prosecution. Because if the juvenile dependency court can keep the kids safe without criminal prosecution of the parents, then they may not want to risk political fallout from a prosecution of an ideologically sympathetic set of parents.



I would have thought that too, but I've read posts from two separate posters who don't seem to find that to be a problem!

I for one didn't say it was ok to "beat" into repentance as you phrase it - but it's one thing to warn that will happen, and another thing if it does happen....since no charges, I think it's an unfair characteristic of what may or may not have happened.

 

[Confusion]

I just wanted to share this with you since you brought up medical treatment. At the 15 min mark in this video, this woman shares her tragic journey through her life as a result of not receiving medical treatment due to religious beliefs. A simple antibiotic would have prevented it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8pP1IcNHiw

I went to read her story and ended up watching the entire thing. It's amazing how so many well-respected and supposedly loving people can abuse children (and sometimes adults) in front of everybody, and how little it seems to take to make people look the other way because of who is doing the abusing. When I was growing up, it never entered the minds of any people I knew (at least those who weren't abused themselves) to doubt anything said or done by a teacher, police officer, doctor, religious leader, or their own parents. For the most part, I'm glad that victims are starting to feel more free to talk about what's done to them, but at the same time, I hate that so many abused children today have absolutely nobody that they feel can be trusted. I always told my sons that they could talk to me about anything, but to have someone else they felt comfortable talking to for times when I was the problem. They usually just chose to tell me that I was being a problem, but not in an abusive way. MOO

 

[Charlie09]

No, and it wasn't alleged that they were beaten at public school either.

I agree with gitana1 that they will probably escape prosecution and get their kids back. However, if that does happen, I am extremely hopeful that CPS involvement will be mandatory until the kids are all 18, and that any physical punishment will be prohibited as a condition of regaining custody.

so you want the judge to tell this one family that they may not use corporal punishment even though it's allowed by law, and no charges were filed!

 

[gitana1]

No, and it wasn't alleged that they were beaten at public school either.

I agree with gitana1 that they will probably escape prosecution and get their kids back. However, if that does happen, I am extremely hopeful that CPS involvement will be mandatory until the kids are all 18, and that any physical punishment will be prohibited as a condition of regaining custody.

I didn't say they'd get their kids back. Just that they'd escape prosecution. I think the kids are going to be in the system for quite awhile- at least some of them.

 

[MyBelle]

I for one didn't say it was ok to "beat" into repentance as you phrase it - but it's one thing to warn that will happen, and another thing if it does happen....since no charges, I think it's an unfair characteristic of what may or may not have happened.

Very unfair but the unfairness might have something to do with the high altitude soapboxes. Hot Springs is near the mountains, after all.

Nobody here has suggested it is okay to beat a child into repentance and there is absolutely no evidence that has happened in this case. Corporal punishment is allowed and the children are home schooled. A beating leaves evidence such as bruises. Bruises don't take two weeks to find. The Stanley kids were examined that day by a physician in the ambulance that rolled up with the 12 vehicle cop convoy.

JMO

 

[wendybtn]

I never read a clearer endorsement of hypocrisy in my life.

And if we all don't do it occasionally, we will never get to where we want to be. To think that you can go through a lifetime and never have to go along to get along is absurd. My Grandmother and I never saw eye to eye but we loved each other and we both had to smile, grit our teeth, and get along sometimes.

 

[wendybtn]

BBM 1st paragraph. I agree 100%. While reunification was successful in my situation and I am thankful daily that the intervention of CPS set my life on a different, far better, course, I KNOW that I was one of the lucky ones and that far too many end up reunified to death.



BBM That is horrid and I hope you realize that not all non southerners feel at all like that. The minority can sometimes be more noticable in their idiocy than the majority. I have not seen anyone on this thread gleefully hating on the south or southerners as incestious bestiality driven toothless backwards folks. I think our members are a bit more educated themselves than to fall prey to such ridiculous notions. I can assure you I do not take joy in this case and would be right here on this :fence: no matter what region, state or country this was taking place in.

Jumping off some of the discussion I have seen on teens being allowed to have more say. I don't subscribe to teens being allowed a whole bunch of freedoms that go against the grain of their parents religious beliefs. Time enough for them to assert their independence as adults, they are close enough to wait for that chance IMO. But IF parents beliefs are to inflict beatings, abuse, etc. then I do feel it is appropriate for authorities to intervene. I do not know what the specifics are in this case so I cannot know if the parents beliefs are a factor or not. All I have heard from is the parents who seem to claim that is so, the son who seems to be understanding that LE is investigating but also supportive of his parents (probably because he has been given no more info than we have from authorities as to what the concerns are) and LE who claim they received reports of abuse.

No, not all people outside the South, but there are plenty. Again, you are basing your opinion on the basis of "not knowing the specifics of the case" and "claims" from some videos that I have no idea what the purpose of is. A lecture, his own public speaking practice, representing his church? And videos can be cut to play to certain audiences.


not all people

 

[K_Z]

I didn't say they'd get their kids back. Just that they'd escape prosecution. I think the kids are going to be in the system for quite awhile- at least some of them.

I hope you're right. If they stay in the system a while, do you think it's likely the parents will still have visitation? Or only if no charges are brought?

 

[wendybtn]

I was quite sympathetic to these parents when I first read the story but listening to those breakfast time sermons is a real eye opener.

My mom told me all kinds of crazy sh** over meals and every other minute she could, but once I realized she was not the ruler of my world and I was over 18, I moved out and let her do whatever. Come on, people are stronger than that. Phoebe Jonchuck had no chance to disregard some information her crazy dad told her when she drowned in freezing water. If only he just interpreted Bible verses for her, whether he was correct or not.

 

[jnblsm]

Disagree. I think it depends on the force used, not what was used.

I spanked my kids. I never "beat" my kids. I had more luck with what they call my "mama-look".
They knew to cease and desist when I threw the look, because they were on the verge of losing a privilege.

 

[K_Z]

so you want the judge to tell this one family that they may not use corporal punishment even though it's allowed by law, and no charges were filed!

Yes. I have no confidence that the father would understand and know how to comply with the law while administering God-commanded scourging, chastening, chastisement, and "correction" to his children.

He was willing to record and publicly post a sermon saying that if anyone said not to "use the rod", psychologists, etc, that he would not agree or comply because his interpretation is that he believes the word of God has mandated that he "use the rod" to correct his children. He says he believes that anyone that disagrees with his interpretation is not speaking the word of God, and can be disobeyed and disregarded. That's a very dangerous mindset, IMO.

I wanted to add that people who have lost custody of their kids for various behaviors often are enjoined from doing things like drinking alcohol and doing drugs as a condition of getting their kids back. Even though they might be adults otherwise allowed by law to drink alcohol, etc. Judges set down all kinds of conditions that parents must adhere to in order to regain or maintain custody. It would be perfectly reasonable for a judge to tell these parents they may not use physical punishment as a condition of regaining custody, among other quite reasonable conditions.

And, no charges were filed YET. This isn't over. Charges still may be filed. Particularly if they refuse to cooperate, IMO.

 

[wendybtn]

The sheriff’s office, according to the statement, “responded to possible child abuse and neglect allegations from … concerned citizens that are familiar with, and friends of, the family.”

Love to know how they were all recruited to go by the sheriff's office in one little town. Most people call a toll free number in their region or state and report anonymously. Most families get one or two people maybe who will report. Sounds like there were dozens lined up to report this in person. Odd?