AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[K_Z]

New post on facebook site provides some insight into the types of things the court has asked the parents to do. I think it's a very positive thing to see the parents so interested in complying with the activities the court has required of them. As long as they cooperate, and are supervised after receiving the kids back, I think we can all agree that the best outcome for the kids is well underway.

Few things summarized from the post, attributed to MS (mom):

-Friends came and "cleaned up" a part of their property, which they are grateful for. (Unknown if court required this, but my suspicion is that something there was unsafe or unacceptable.)

- MS says they are working hard and fast to complete all that the court has asked them to do, ahead of the Feb 12 hearing, which the post says would normally take "months". So there must be more than a few small items they were asked to accomplish, IMO.

- MS and HS are reported to be participating in court ordered parenting classes, and participating in psych evals (which IMO, is a very normal and expected court order as a step to regaining custody of kids)

- The post also says they are preparing for the "extreme challenge of lifestyle dictates" by the court. From that comment, my interpretation is that they will have to demonstrate that they are willing and able to do a number of things "differently" to be acceptable to the court. More evidence that it was not simply an attack on "homeschooling" or "MMS" that lead to the children being removed, IMO.

-There is a recent very nice pic of HS and a couple young kids, so we know visitation is still in progress.

I'm hopeful that this is the beginning to a new kind of homelife, and an improved relationship with their parents for the kids, that eliminates the hazards and "lifestyle" difficulties they had before.

I do hope the court will insist on a long period of continuing CPS/ DHS supervision of the home situation after they regain custody of the kids, to ensure compliance over time. But overall, a very optimistic re-start for the whole family. It sounds like the process is working to me. And that's the best possible outcome for the kids, IMO.

 

[Yoda]

In her post she also said she feels the youngest five will be able to come home. The other two will need to complete some other things before they return.

in an additional post she said the $7000 was not for paying the attorney, but was for court costs,filing fees and other fees required. Holy cow! Can anyone tell me if that sounds right?

 

[gitana1]

In America, there is a limit to what we as a modern society with laws will tolerate as "tribal beliefs", religious beliefs, quackery, or "alternative treatments." As an example, we don't tolerate people with STDs, HIV, and AIDS raping virginal children to cure their illness, even if they ardently "believe" raping a child will cure them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_cleansing_myth

Parents may "believe", for example, that giving autistic kids MMS bleach to drink, bathing them in it, and giving them MMS bleach enemas will "cure" their autism, but when those parents encounter the medical, legal, and CPS system, they will likely be compelled to stop that behavior, and risk permanently losing their children if they don't comply.

And while parents are now allowed to *believe* anything they wish about withholding necessary and appropriate medical care, the courts have ruled that they may not be prosecuted for that truly held belief, but the state CAN compel the children to receive necessary medical care, over the objections of the parent/s.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science#First_prosecutions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_v._Twitchell

It's my opinion that we are coming closer and closer to mandatory vaccination for all children. When we have a major epidemic with lots of deaths and permanent harm from unvaccinated people and vaccine-preventable illness like measles (and it's coming, rest assured), the public and political tide will turn against "philosophical" and "religious exemptions" clauses that remain in some state's laws.

I don't believe we are anywhere close to a mandatory vaccination for kids. However, a couple states have laws that exclude un-vaccinated kids from schools or day cares. Parents can choose to homeschool.

 

[Charlie09]

I totally oppose mandatory vaccinations as well but I have to address what I think is a flaw in logic. There are so few measles deaths per year because most people vaccinate their kids.

Measles remains one of the leading causes of death among children globally because some poorer countries do not have access to the vaccines. 145,700 people died of the measles in 2013. And this is despite a 75% drop in cases since 2000.

Regardless, it is up to each parent, IMO, to do the research and decide for themselves. It's not like a seat belt or car seat. It's more like an airbag. Saves a lot of lives but is occasionally fatal. We have a working constitution in this country that allows us to make decisions like that.

We didn't see the same deaths here in the states in the 60's and 70's...the large death numbers are more likely the poor nutrition and other 3rd world ailments...separate thread I suppose. I agree whole heartedly about the Constitution

 

[tlcya]

$7000 seems very excessive for court filing fees.

However, it is possible that some of that figure is to be used for the fees associated with parenting classes etc that DHS may be requiring. In my area (No clue about if that is the case in AK) if DHS requires you to take parenting, anger management or substances abuse classes, they also require you to pay the fees associated with those classes. The fee for type of class here can range from fifty to hundreds of dollars. Classes can range from being 4 to 10 classes one or two per week over the course of several weeks or months.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

MMS - Miracle Mineral Supplement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

 

[Hatfield]

Sorry, the vaccination thing is actually off topic and I probably should not have commented. but her rabid campaign against vaccinations stuck in my craw. Like a lot of things that stick in my craw, I used humor to address.

But back on topic. It seems as if the hearing was pretty involved and was, as K_Z stated, apparently no "rubber stamp" process. I feel confident that there was cause for concern and am still on the fence as to whether that concern will prove to be justified but I think the concern was genuine and not some conspiracy.

The part that concerned me was the statement made about "unruly teenagers" and "spanking".

I have no idea of any of the details but that really concerned me because if the parent is physically disciplining a teenager, then the type of "spanking" could be more along the lines of whipping with a belt or worse.

I have no children and am the last person that should even comment on proper child upbringing and am just commenting based on what I think spanking entices from someone that really doesnt have a clue. LOL
I am officially on the fence as to whether it should even be used as a form of child raising but with that said....

When I typically think of what "spanking" is, the first thought that comes to mind is lightly spanking a young child on the butt maybe once or twice to basically scare the child and to not really cause any real pain or harm at all but to try to change behavior. I would think when a child gets a certain age like a young teen, that "spanking" would go away and other forms of punishment would be used. Like grounding, taking away cell phones, etc. Those types of things would most likely change teen behavior much more than anything else at that age I would think.

So it really concerned me when I saw it mentioned the word "teen" in with "spanking". My concern would be if the parent was trying to spank a teen, the discipline would most likely approach something like a real beating of some sort I would think.
That is where my concerns lie with this story.

 

[LinasK]

It isn't known whether the attorney is providing free services. The reason he took the case is also not known. I highly doubt any attorney would take a case for free if he didn't believe his client has a good case. Being on the losing end isn't good publicity for any attorney, imo.

Bad publicity hasn't hurt Mark Geragos (Scott Peterson), Kirk Nurmi (Jodi Arias), nor Jose Baez (Casey Anthony). Bad publicity is better than no publicity for some...

 

[LinasK]

My own father survived far worse than this in his family of origin and has had a successful life anyway. When kids are murdered in their own homes and thrown off bridges alive, this case appears to be a bit of an over reaction. I will still be surprised if any actual substantial charges are filed. I understand a report has to be followed up. But there are homes,parents, and children in the news every day that give off a much worse first impression and CPS leaves the kids there to be murdered before the next visit. Frankly, people outside the South and big city dwellers love these stories of rural backwards rednecks poisoning their children and potential incest and bestiality. They love it even more if they have poor dentition. JMO. I am not from the South, but I live here now, and while I love a good Jeff Foxworthy joke, I see the joy on the MSM when a seemingly different country person gets LE attention among 'reports' and 'allegations.'

Joy because we want the children to be safe??? By the time they are murderer it is too late!!! Better to check the family out and be safe than sorry. The children's needs come before those of this patriach and his wife young enough to be his daughter.

 

[LinasK]

BBM. You know that is patently false. And quite honestly, this post reads a lot to me like baiting for reaction. Not a single poster on this thread has called HS an alcoholic, or even implied it. Your post is the first one to associate the issue of alcohol and Southern Baptists. No one has "labelled" him anything, except your posts labelling him Southern Baptist, and then making assumptions about what his behavior "should" be. This family is "hyper religious" by their own description so discussing that on this thread is not some kind of unfair criticism, or persecution.

No one, me included, has said HS "is" mentally ill. AND, we have gone to extreme lengths to define CLINICAL mental illness from behavior that might be considered odd or extreme, or out of the mainstream, but ultimately harmless to others. We have discussed that the onset of new changes in personality in aging people (and younger others) are sometimes the first clue that dementia or mental illness may be developing.

It is obvious to me that there is an agenda here to twist everything that is discussed to make it appear that many posters, are persecuting and unfairly ripping on this man and this family, or that there is some terrible "conspiracy" to persecute this man because of his political beliefs-- which you first posted about. It's unfortunate that in your posts the safety of the children takes a backseat to this other agenda.

His BEHAVIOR has been discussed and described, in the CONTEXT of his religion. His own words posted on the internet publicly, and in his interviews, have been discussed and described.

Oh-- and MMS is no more a dietary supplement than sprinkling Drano on your cornflakes. It's not an alternative herb-- it's a highly caustic chemical reaction. I get that it's legal, just like Drano and Clorox are legal. Lots of poisons are legal to own. It's unsafe and ridiculous that anyone is so foolish as to ingest this caustic chemical and call it a "supplement". And very frustrating that gullible and ignorant people can be so easily misled.

BBM. Excellent post K_Z!!:clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[MyBelle]

My own father survived far worse than this in his family of origin and has had a successful life anyway. When kids are murdered in their own homes and thrown off bridges alive, this case appears to be a bit of an over reaction. I will still be surprised if any actual substantial charges are filed. I understand a report has to be followed up. But there are homes,parents, and children in the news every day that give off a much worse first impression and CPS leaves the kids there to be murdered before the next visit. Frankly, people outside the South and big city dwellers love these stories of rural backwards rednecks poisoning their children and potential incest and bestiality. They love it even more if they have poor dentition. JMO. I am not from the South, but I live here now, and while I love a good Jeff Foxworthy joke, I see the joy on the MSM when a seemingly different country person gets LE attention among 'reports' and 'allegations.'

Very well said. For anyone to leap to a conclusion that this case involves "extremist religious maltreatment" says more about the leaper than about the family involved in this case.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Joy because we want the children to be safe??? By the time they are murderer it is too late!!! Better to check the family out and be safe than sorry. The children's needs come before those of this patriach and his wife young enough to be his daughter.

Of course everyone here wants the children safe. But removing children from their home and their stay-at- home mother can also be very emotionally traumatizing with long-term effects. And so far, no evidence has been shared that the children weren't safe prior to the removal from their home.

JMO

 

[Margo/Mom]

The part that concerned me was the statement made about "unruly teenagers" and "spanking".

I have no idea of any of the details but that really concerned me because if the parent is physically disciplining a teenager, then the type of "spanking" could be more along the lines of whipping with a belt or worse.

I agree, that bothered me as well. The parents have spoken several time about their "rebellious teens," and have now attempted to discredit the adult son who spoke to the press alluding to the possibility that perhaps the children have a valid point of view that has been missed and that perhaps his parents were not perfect--however loving and well-meaning they might be. Michelle announced to the world that this son is now an agnostic--as if that automatically placed him into a category of evil, rather than defining a fairly normal process in maturing faith-development. Michelle also said very early on something to the effect that DPS could keep the older two (presumably allowing them to go to--horrors--public school) but just send the younger children home. She reiterated something along those lines yesterday in predicting that the court would likely return the younger children, but that the older two had more to do before they could come home. I don't know quite how to understand this--as DPS and the courts do not typically place contingencies on children in abuse cases, but rather on the parents. Unless they are the ones accused of abuse--although a placement that has kept the siblings together would suggest that this is not the case.

Clearly as outsiders we are lacking in facts. There are, however, red flags aplenty, including the family's attempts from the very beginning to discredit law enforcement and put out their own counter-tale (full of holes and inconsistencies as it is) online, the family's extreme isolation and mistrust of public education, medical care along with strong suggestions of quiverful and end-times beliefs.

 

[forthelost]

And so far, no evidence has been shared that the children weren't safe prior to the removal from their home.

I'm assuming evidence was given at the most recent hearing, but none of us were there for it.

 

[chaotic_idealism]

I agree, that bothered me as well. The parents have spoken several time about their "rebellious teens," and have now attempted to discredit the adult son who spoke to the press alluding to the possibility that perhaps the children have a valid point of view that has been missed and that perhaps his parents were not perfect--however loving and well-meaning they might be. Michelle announced to the world that this son is now an agnostic--as if that automatically placed him into a category of evil, rather than defining a fairly normal process in maturing faith-development.

I was such a "rebellious teen" myself. As a teen I asked questions, wanted reasons for the things I was told to believe. My parents justified the way they treated me by labeling me a "rebellious teen"--treatment that included hitting me, dismissing my worth, humiliating me, and labeling me the source of all the family's problems.

I was also home-schooled, and the physical abuse was carefully kept mild enough not to cause injuries that would need medical treatment. In fact, I was home-schooled primarily because I had started to tell people at school that my stepfather hit me. I was fed "herbal supplements", put on a strict diet, and denied medical care. My parents, fundamentalist Baptists, used religion to justify their behavior. It wasn't until I was on my own that I realized that they were making a mockery of Christianity.

This was in Missouri, in the 1990s. My parents never got in trouble for abuse. I tried to ask for help multiple times. No one ever helped, and because the abuse was not severe enough to be obvious, even the police didn't step in when I told a police officer face to face that my stepfather hit me.

This family's situation is so familiar that it practically gives me flashbacks. Those "rebellious teens" probably had to gather every ounce of courage they had to tell someone that they were being isolated and mistreated, and, just as mine was, their stories are being dismissed.

And, oh yes, I smiled in pictures too. I looked healthy. My parents were church-going, upstanding citizens. My stepfather was a "nice guy" that all the neighbors liked. My mom was scared of the government, scared that there was a conspiracy to take us away because we were home-schooled. But home-schooling and keeping us away from mainstream medicine were just ways to isolate us more.

There are devout Christians who home-school their children to give them a good education and treat them with respect and kindness. But there are also people who put on a perfect-Christian facade, home-school their children, and turn their home into a beautiful, perfect, terrifying prison for their "rebellious teens", in a systematic attempt to eradicate the child's personality and individuality, turning them into an extension of the parents' will. I suspect this home is one of the latter, and I hope these children are rescued from it.

 

[stormshine]

Chaotic_idealism, thank you so much for sharing that. It definitely shows that in cases like this there can easily be a lot more beneath the surface. Have you ever considered publishing your story? I think it would make s great article for putting this kind of thing in perspective.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Chaotic--you are by no means alone in your experience, which is why I believe that a number of the knee-jerk reactions in support of the family with charges of governmental overreach must be countered by rational discourse--to say the least. As someone else noted, when "spanking" and "rebellious teenager" occur in the same discussion, it is unlikely that we are talking about corrective swats on the bottom. Not only is there abundant evidence that even when corporal punishment does not rise to the level of physical abuse, it is simply not very effective. Strong believers in corporal punishment (those with religious commitments to driving out evil inclinations in their children through use of corporal "correction") can find themselves to be very frustrated with fairly normal stages of adolescence in which blind obedience is not a part of the normal developmental path. And with only one tool in their box, they tend to "spank" (or more correctly beat) harder and more often. Other punishments can also be added on--being sent outside without proper clothing for instance, (another worry given the first report of children outside in the snow without shoes). There have been some documented deaths in similar (also loving and caring) families--which should concern anyone who is truly concerned for the welfare of the children. Love does not prevent abuse and neglect, nor does strong religious belief.

 

[K_Z]

I'm just going to post these links again, as companions to the discussion in posts 455, 456, and 457 above:

http://religiouschildmaltreatment.com/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/16...=161614405X&linkCode=as2&tag=religchildmal-20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hana_Grace-Rose_Williams

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sharo...thiopian-adoptee-hana-williams_b_4267832.html

 

[K_Z]

Very well said. For anyone to leap to a conclusion that this case involves "extremist religious maltreatment" says more about the leaper than about the family involved in this case.

JMO

No, that's not right. It's not "leaping to a conclusion" when the father himself has recorded and uploaded "sermons" discussing in detail how he scourges, chastens, chastises, and physically beats his kids into submission. The probable cause hearing spanned many hours, and 2 days in court. Probable cause (multiple causes, according to reports) was found. The parents have been court ordered to do a whole lot of things to begin to be eligible to have their kids returned. They may be devout and upstanding in their insular religious community, but that doesn't excuse what they were doing that resulted in the kids being removed. Religion is no excuse for abuse.

And as you know, these "sermons" describing physical abuse by the father are uploaded to the internet and publicly available to anyone who wants to listen to what he says. So that's not leaping to any conclusions. It's acknowledging his own words. No one here is accusing him of anything he hasn't already admitted to.

The parents are pretty lucky, IMO, and should be grateful that the authorities have chosen to handle this in family court, rather than file criminal charges. They are lucky none of the kids were seriously harmed, or even killed. As in Hana Williams' murder.

 

[LinasK]

I was such a "rebellious teen" myself. As a teen I asked questions, wanted reasons for the things I was told to believe. My parents justified the way they treated me by labeling me a "rebellious teen"--treatment that included hitting me, dismissing my worth, humiliating me, and labeling me the source of all the family's problems.

I was also home-schooled, and the physical abuse was carefully kept mild enough not to cause injuries that would need medical treatment. In fact, I was home-schooled primarily because I had started to tell people at school that my stepfather hit me. I was fed "herbal supplements", put on a strict diet, and denied medical care. My parents, fundamentalist Baptists, used religion to justify their behavior. It wasn't until I was on my own that I realized that they were making a mockery of Christianity.

This was in Missouri, in the 1990s. My parents never got in trouble for abuse. I tried to ask for help multiple times. No one ever helped, and because the abuse was not severe enough to be obvious, even the police didn't step in when I told a police officer face to face that my stepfather hit me.

This family's situation is so familiar that it practically gives me flashbacks. Those "rebellious teens" probably had to gather every ounce of courage they had to tell someone that they were being isolated and mistreated, and, just as mine was, their stories are being dismissed.

And, oh yes, I smiled in pictures too. I looked healthy. My parents were church-going, upstanding citizens. My stepfather was a "nice guy" that all the neighbors liked. My mom was scared of the government, scared that there was a conspiracy to take us away because we were home-schooled. But home-schooling and keeping us away from mainstream medicine were just ways to isolate us more.

There are devout Christians who home-school their children to give them a good education and treat them with respect and kindness. But there are also people who put on a perfect-Christian facade, home-school their children, and turn their home into a beautiful, perfect, terrifying prison for their "rebellious teens", in a systematic attempt to eradicate the child's personality and individuality, turning them into an extension of the parents' will. I suspect this home is one of the latter, and I hope these children are rescued from it.

The parents' defensive paranoia in the first article raised red flags for me.