AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[BeginnersLuck]

All I've seen is speculation about the factors, i.e., that the parents intended to flee and that they had a well-stocked travel trailer. NEITHER of those factors should be the basis for removal of children from their home.

JMO

The sheriff stated there were multiple factors not just MMS. Like I said, this has been discussed over and over. The fleeing in the vehicle was brought up by the mother in the taped video. I don't know if you read or watch any of the videos and links provided or not or you are basing your opinions on the initial first article that was releases in MSM quoting the father.

 

[stormshine]

There seems to be a lot of mixing up the "older" Stanley kids. I hope that I might be able to clarify some things, based on my understanding.

There are two adult children, boy and girl, who no longer live at home. The girl has a family of her own and hasn't made any statements, as far as I know. The boy (I think the one the father has claimed is agnostic) has given interviews, included this video one: http://www.arkansasmatters.com/stor...e-son-of-stanley/21953/Bx31OC_C3kSuX3jK2uw4wA. The interview suggests that he thinks the removal might have been justified, without going into specifics. But he also seems to want to support his parents.

There are two older, school-aged children still living in the home. They are the ones the father claims wanted to attend to public school and who may have been the ones to actually allege abuse. They have not given any interviews (they wouldn't be able to, since they're minors under CPS custody). We really have no way knowing what they have told authorities since they are minors.

 

[Margo/Mom]

All I've seen is speculation about the factors, i.e., that the parents intended to flee and that they had a well-stocked travel trailer. NEITHER of those factors should be the basis for removal of children from their home.

JMO

Belle, there are different standards of evidence for various legal actions. In what is going on so far, I believe that the standard being applied is a preponderance of evidence. This means that based on the pile of evidence, an allegation is more likely than not to be true. Adding together that the older children told investigators that their parents would flee with the family and the fact that the means of flight were ready and waiting, combined with a multiplicity of other factors indicating the likelihood of abuse (and we are not privy to these in detail, as the records in family court are not public--but the parents themselves have suggested that corporal punishment was a factor) and the action is legally justified. And this has been affirmed for the moment by the rulings of the judge, who first affirmed the removal, within 72 hours as required by law and then allowed for the continued placement of the children during the course of due process--when the parents are going to oppose the charges against them, which again include abuse.

Your responses here seem to follow a pattern of picking out a single element and claiming that it does not justify removal. The problem is that we are not looking at single elements, but rather multiple elements.

I haven't seen much activity on the FB page in the past few days, but from earlier statements, particularly the discussion of the cost beyond that of the pro bono attorney, it would appear as though they intend to bring in expert witnesses (paid witnesses). This would go beyond what might be expected from character witnesses--friends, neighbors and the like who might testify about the love in the family and so forth and so on. I am wondering if they intend to bring in witnesses to attest to the value of MMS (and yes, there are such people who make a living in providing such with regard to this particular product), as well as some who might attest to the religious basis (and possibly positive outcomes) for their teaching and disciplinary methods.

 

[MyBelle]

With all due respect, the Judge issued a gag order. We will probably never know what all the factors are. It seems though, that whatever they were, they were enough for DSHS, LE and the Judge to all agree to remove the children.

The upcoming hearing is so the Judge can decide whether there is reason to continue the removal.

A gag order doesn't last forever. Sometimes authorities do over-reach and Judges rule against them. Lawsuits over the issue often result which is where this case is headed, imo.

JMO

 

[CHICANA]

But we'll never know because of the gag order, all we can do is speculate that they did the right thing.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I would imagine that once the gag order expires, the family and anyone else present will be free to talk about the proceedings. However, that doesn't mean that the court records will be unsealed. So, at best we will get a one sided version of events.

 

[MyBelle]

But we'll never know because of the gag order, all we can do is speculate that they did the right thing.

The Judge's decision will reflect whether they did the right thing or not.

JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

The Judge's decision will reflect whether they did the right thing or not.

JMO

Maybe. Doing the right thing might have to do with the perceived danger and risk to the children at the time. The judge's decision will reflect what is discovered, not whether or not the right thing was done at the start. JMO.

 

[K_Z]

If the kids are returned after this next hearing, it does not mean that the removal back in January was "wrong".

The probable cause hearing spanned 2 days in court, and the children were continued in state custody. The parents are now, by their report, pro-actively doing what the court, their attorney, and DHS has recommended ahead of the next adjudication hearing. They are presumably trying to cooperate, and show good faith with the directions they have been given to follow.

So, the children may be returned based on the evidence of the parent's current cooperation, as well as their promise of future cooperation, tempered with certain court-ordered oversight conditions. That's what "usually" happens for parents to regain custody.

That doesn't mean that the original removal was incorrect or baseless, or the probable cause hearing conclusions by the Judge were "wrong".

 

[K_Z]

Announcement a few hours ago on the "bring the Stanley kids home" FB site says the hearing for tomorrow and Friday has been postponed by the State. Details pending.

 

[K_Z]

Announced on facebook that the new court date is March 23, 6 weeks from now. Kids will remain in state custody.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Announced on facebook that the new court date is March 23, 6 weeks from now. Kids will remain in state custody.

A lot of folks on the Facebook site going ballistic over this. Apparently Michelle says that she was told her kids would be coming home today. That is pretty hard to believe. At best I can imagine that the family was provided a plan with a tacit understanding that this would help their case for return. Many of the FB followers (any with opposing viewpoints get blocked and removed in short order--so this is only supporters of the view that the children should absolutely be returned) clearly believe that DHS makes money from removing kids (a twisted misinterpretation of federal entitlements--DHS would be a flow-through for TANF $ and any foster care $. These would go to the foster families and any other providers, and typically fall short of the actual cost of caring for children) and one even went so far as to suggest that the judge was getting some sort of kick-back (not unheard of--but in completely other kinds of juvenile placements). There is also a lot of sentiment about the evil government being an arm of the Devil, roughly speaking.

My own interpretation, based on some years of experience tangential to the work of Childrens' Services, is that one of two things (or some combination of both) is going on. One is that additional evidence of possible abuse/neglect has emerged during the childrens' time in care. This could range from untreated mental or dental conditions, evidence of educational neglect (according to FB the kids are now in public schools--where testing might show them to be below grade level), or further testimony from the kids about corporal punishment or excessive means of punishment or even sexual abuse. Note--all speculation on my part, just offering a more rational understanding than the evil government trying to grab up kids.

The other set of possibilities would have to do with whatever plan DHS had put together for the Stanleys. Due to federal law that puts limits on the amount of time that children can dangle in foster care without resolution of any kind, many agencies now do "dual planning" from the time at which children enter into their care. This means that they must create a plan for the children to return home concurrent to planning for a permanent placement, rather than waiting for a judge's decision. Michelle has posted about doing some things at home--cleaning up the yard and so forth, and they may have had to attend some parenting classes and the like. DHS may at this point be uncertain about a recommendation based on progress toward compliance and wish to allow the family more time to complete tasks or demonstrate a willingness to make needed changes.

 

[K_Z]

Well said, Margo/Mom. I'm in full agreement with everything you wrote.

Michelle Stanley as much as told everyone in her post that the investigation is still ongoing, when she referred to hoping that the State was not on a "fishing expedition."

Many people seem to erroneously believe that the return of the children is based only on what was known to authorities on Jan 12, when the children were removed. Or that they are being unfairly persecuted for something simple, like having a messy backyard or something.

There is a lot of indignation expressed that because the children are loved, and being brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home, that there could be no possibility of wrongdoing or abuse. Not unexpected, I suppose, especially given the methodical cherrypicking of the comments they allow to stay up. This community is very insular, dangerously self-righteous, and paranoid of anyone that isn't part of "their" group, IMO, from their comments. And especially paranoid about police, "the government", any societal authority figures. The combination of adult paranoia and extreme fundamentalism is always very frightening to me where children are involved, as we see in many places in the world.

The circumstances will continue to play out over the next 6 weeks. But from what has been posted today, we can be pretty much certain that the postponement of the court hearings today and tomorrow were not due to some benign kind of scheduling mishap, mechanical problems, illness, or vacation, or something of the like. IMO, the postponement is directly related to the ongoing investigation. I think if HS and MS were simply not "done" with the classes and other evaluations they're doing, and needed more time, that would have come through loud and clear.

 

[MyBelle]

Well said, Margo/Mom. I'm in full agreement with everything you wrote.

Michelle Stanley as much as told everyone in her post that the investigation is still ongoing, when she referred to hoping that the State was not on a "fishing expedition."

Many people seem to erroneously believe that the return of the children is based only on what was known to authorities on Jan 12, when the children were removed. Or that they are being unfairly persecuted for something simple, like having a messy backyard or something.

There is a lot of indignation expressed that because the children are loved, and being brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home, that there could be no possibility of wrongdoing or abuse. Not unexpected, I suppose, especially given the methodical cherrypicking of the comments they allow to stay up. This community is very insular, dangerously self-righteous, and paranoid of anyone that isn't part of "their" group, IMO, from their comments. And especially paranoid about police, "the government", any societal authority figures. The combination of adult paranoia and extreme fundamentalism is always very frightening to me where children are involved, as we see in many places in the world.

The circumstances will continue to play out over the next 6 weeks. But from what has been posted today, we can be pretty much certain that the postponement of the court hearings today and tomorrow were not due to some benign kind of scheduling mishap, mechanical problems, illness, or vacation, or something of the like. IMO, the postponement is directly related to the ongoing investigation. I think if HS and MS were simply not "done" with the classes and other evaluations they're doing, and needed more time, that would have come through loud and clear.

BBM. Therein lies the problem. Extreme fundamentalism is a protected right. The government can't interfere unless the child is in imminent danger. Emotional and psychiatric issues become a real sticky wicket for the government to get involved because of rights, as the Justine Pelletier case showed.

There are religions that don't believe in psychiatric medicine or any medicine or believe they can "pray away the gay." Parents who truly believe something can't be forced by the state to change their belief and the courts have only intervened when the child is endangered physically or medically.

I'm just speculating but from what the mother has said about the college son being agnostic and the teens wanting to go to public school, I think the "abuse" is along the lines of praying away the gay.

JMO

And, among other things, what she will be free to do is to sue the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and Boston Children's Hospital and those doctors who insisted all her symptoms were "in her head" for violating her rights and for malpractice. That wasn't possible until now because she has been in the custody of the Department of Children and Families.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014...-legal-nightmare-should-frighten-all-parents/

 

[Margo/Mom]

I'm just speculating but from what the mother has said about the college son being agnostic and the teens wanting to go to public school, I think the "abuse" is along the lines of praying away the gay.

I don't know Belle. On the one hand, in large families, like the Stanleys or the Duggars, the odds of one or more children being gay tend to go up, so I cannot completely discount the possibility of subjection to pray away the gay type efforts. And I am fairly certain--without looking it up--that Arkansas is among the majority of states that do not have laws preventing parents from forcing their children into such programs. However, among the plentiful hints that have been dropped by the Stanleys, I do not hear anything that leads me to believe that this is an active concern.

In listening to some of Hal's sermons, however, I do gather that he not only believes in patriarchal authority--very strongly--but also advocates for use of the chastening rod to drive out any rebellious nature. He has several such sermons on the general topics of the family, the role of the father and in defense of such chastening as a demonstration of love--mostly introduced with a statement that this is what the children need to hear. He addresses himself directly to one (or more, not sure) of the sons in several instances.

I would imagine that any participation in parenting classes would present a challenge to these beliefs, and I don't know that Michelle has the guile to be able to fake her way through. The video that she made must have already made their attorney cringe with statements like, "with the two older ones in the police car for 5 hours, I could only wonder what they were saying," the admission that Hal was measuring his body's acidity and adjusting it with the MMS (industrial strength bleach--in no way approved for human consumption and not at all for any of the uses/cures claimed by the folks selling it), and her allusion to requirements to make basic lifestyle changes that she was uncomfortable with (according to FB).

This is from my local newspaper today. I hold no opinion at present about the case(s) discussed. I am offering it here, however, as a decent discussion of precisely how difficult it is to make calls that involve the disruption of families. Friends and neighbors are frequently certain that they know what is happening within a family--either good or bad. But actually assessing and making decisions is a very heavy responsibility. http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...-didnt-save-teen-so-police-investigating.html

 

[bluesneakers]

Do you have a link to the video, or can you tell me where to search for it? Thanks.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Do you have a link to the video, or can you tell me where to search for it? Thanks.

Here is the link. http://www.arkansasherald.com/2015/01/first-press-statement-by-the-parents-of-the-stanley-children/

BTW--the Arkansas Herald has a couple pics up of a courthouse protest today. Only about 5 folks, but the reporter said that more were arriving. They also promised more coverage, including an interview with the FBI.

The FBI, to my mind, brings in a whole other set of possibilities than have generally been speculated on. The first headlines referred to the family as "preppers," which Hal kind of explained away as just knowing how to hunt and fish and being ready in case something happened. Y2K spawned a number of preppers (and people willing to sell them stuff for their preparations). There are also End Times believers who have a tendency not only to believe that the end is near, but that it is desirable and also something that can be hastened in various ways, having to do with Christian dominion over commerce and government, returning the Hebrews to their homeland and engaging in war with the anti-Christ. Some of these sorts of things may involve caches of arms or military training and the like. And the FBI tends to take a rather keen interest in these sorts of things.

So--just my own speculation. But recall that these folks are already pretty far off the grid, are suspected of being ready to flee with their children, and hit the internet really fast with a viral cover story that has aroused a number of home-schoolers, fundamentalists and the like. And that the removal entailed many people and hours on the property. Hal Stanley has reported lots of firepower present as well.

 

[human]

Children are not possessions. The parents do not own the children.

Because they are children, they can be hit?

Is it OK for your spouse , SO, or any other adult to hit you if you are not following along with some rules? Does getting hit and chastised make you feel good and perk right up?

It makes me sick thinking that people believe parents can do anything to children because they are the parents.

 

[bluesneakers]

Local Anonymous Group Protests CPS
http://www.arkansasherald.com/2015/02/protesting-child-protective-services-at-hot-springs-dhs/
--
I have never seen any Anonymous protests encouraging someone to call the police or any government organization. IMO Anonymous would directly warn CPS to give the kids back and make threats about hacking their systems, etc. So I don't know what these kids think they're doing there other than maybe trying to get some actual Anonymous interest in the case?

Strange.
JMO.

 

[gitana1]

Here is the link. http://www.arkansasherald.com/2015/01/first-press-statement-by-the-parents-of-the-stanley-children/

BTW--the Arkansas Herald has a couple pics up of a courthouse protest today. Only about 5 folks, but the reporter said that more were arriving. They also promised more coverage, including an interview with the FBI.

The FBI, to my mind, brings in a whole other set of possibilities than have generally been speculated on. The first headlines referred to the family as "preppers," which Hal kind of explained away as just knowing how to hunt and fish and being ready in case something happened. Y2K spawned a number of preppers (and people willing to sell them stuff for their preparations). There are also End Times believers who have a tendency not only to believe that the end is near, but that it is desirable and also something that can be hastened in various ways, having to do with Christian dominion over commerce and government, returning the Hebrews to their homeland and engaging in war with the anti-Christ. Some of these sorts of things may involve caches of arms or military training and the like. And the FBI tends to take a rather keen interest in these sorts of things.

So--just my own speculation. But recall that these folks are already pretty far off the grid, are suspected of being ready to flee with their children, and hit the internet really fast with a viral cover story that has aroused a number of home-schoolers, fundamentalists and the like. And that the removal entailed many people and hours on the property. Hal Stanley has reported lots of firepower present as well.

I think the ATF would be involved if it had to do with firepower. The FBI investigates things like selling illegal substances over the internet. It probably has to do with that supplement they have.