AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[Charlie09]

The visitation is supervised. The trip home was under a Baptist minister and his wife who have apparently worked with DHS in the past. Apparently one earlier visit was cut short when Hal did not follow the rules about what could be discussed with the children.

I said "not escorted by CPS or law enforcement"

 

[gitana1]

I agree. I think that her prayer partners and online buddies are doing her no favors in pushing the governmental overreach memes and conspiracy theories. She seems to have actually moved from an "I'll do whatever it takes" to digging her heels in against the very notion that children have a right to be protected from abusive parents.

I was going to say something similar.

If they had done something illegal, they would have been charged. You can speculate all you want to the contrary.

People say this a lot on various threads. As an attorney I can tell you it is untrue. The authorities fail to arrest and/or charge suspects when there is evidence of a crime, all the time for a variety of reasons, often political ones.

As I've stated previously, per a friend of mine who is a social worker and removes kids from home due to abuse or neglect, about 70% of cases in which kids are removed by the state do not result in criminal charges.

or they could desperately be looking for something that would make this ok legally - and not open them to litigation and compensating the family for taking the kids because the stanley's fought them.

Why? Why would Arkansas governmental authorities want to remove kids and keep them without reason? The government in Arkansas is a wholly conservative one. This isn't Connecticut going after a religious, right wing family.

 

[gitana1]

I think criminal charges are ALWAYS filed in cases of physical abuse because it is, after all, illegal. I don't believe this case even has allegations of drug abuse.

I know. You've said that's what you believe. But it's not reality. There are various cases of physical abuse that do not result in charges. It depends on the severity. I myself worked a juvenile dependency case that involved child abuse claims but no arrest.

 

[Charlie09]

I was going to say something similar.



People say this a lot on various threads. As an attorney I can tell you it is untrue. The authorities fail to arrest and/or charge suspects when there is evidence of a crime, all the time for a variety of reasons, often political ones.

As I've stated previously, per a friend of mine who is a social worker and removes kids from home due to abuse or neglect, about 70% of cases in which kids are removed by the state do not result in criminal charges.



Why? Why would Arkansas governmental authorities want to remove kids and keep them without reason? The government in Arkansas is a wholly conservative one. This isn't Connecticut going after a religious, right wing family.

might want to check into the history of Garland County Sheriff's department- and disciplinary action in the department in general -

All it takes is one over zealous deputy -

Now, from the original statement from the Sheriff's office
"“It’s never our desire as law enforcement officers or the Garland County Sheriff’s Office to remove any child from a home. However, it’s my commitment to protect all citizens of Garland County, especially minor children who simply cannot protect themselves. Although I cannot comment further as this is an ongoing investigation involving minor children, this case may lead to criminal arrests and charges being filed. It was the opinion of onsite investigators with the Garland County Sheriff’s Department and Arkansas State Police the children were at risk of serious harm and the decision was made to remove the minor children from the home pursuant to the Arkansas Child Maltreatment Act, 12-18-1001"

7. procedures for immediate steps to be taken to ensure and protect the safety of a victim of child abuse or neglect and of any other child under the same care who may also be in danger of child abuse or neglect; and ensuring their placement in a safe environment (section 106(b)(2)(B)(vi) of CAPTA) Ark. Code Ann. § 12-18-1001); DCFS Policy II-D

That's a whole lot of wiggle room, with 6 weeks to bring those criminal charges - and yet nothing.

 

[Margo/Mom]

might want to check into the history of Garland County Sheriff's department- and disciplinary action in the department in general -

All it takes is one over zealous deputy -

That's a whole lot of wiggle room, with 6 weeks to bring those criminal charges - and yet nothing.

I'm not an attorney. However, I did spend some time on a Grand Jury. One thing that I learned is that there can be many things going on behind the scenes when it comes to investigations and bringing charges. While the public may perceive foot-dragging, there may in fact be a good bit going on that they are not privy to.

With that said, it is also possible that the Sheriff overspoke and there will be no charges forthcoming. That is not the same as determining that the children were in no danger in that household, as gitana has pointed out.

And I point out again that we have systemic checks against overzealous deputies, or others. And that is the judicial review required within 72 hours. This is followed by the right of the parents to due process--which is ongoing.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I said "not escorted by CPS or law enforcement"

The visitation has been supervised by CPS (or their agents).

 

[wenwe4]

I got to thinking about this case. CPS does not advertise to media when they remove children from the home. This case had to have broken (to the media) via the parents. I doubt we would ever know about this case (unless there was a child death/near death or kidnapping). IIRC this case broke when the parents alleged their children were taken because of MMS use in this home, then it morphed into "those terrible teenagers who wanted to go to public school and tantrummed", to fear of the family fleeing in their already packed van, to allegations of physical abuse.

The parents knew from the very first day what the allegations were (IMO). The reason we don't know what is actually happening is because of the gag order and the only info leaking out is via the parents (that I am aware of). The fact that the children are still under State Protection and only allowed supervised visits with their parents (whether in the home or outside of the home) confirms that the children were in danger of harm and the State has come up with a "safety plan" for reunification with their children. The parents have some work to do to ameliorate the issues that brought the kids into care. Now whether they are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that the State's concerns are no longer a safety issue for the children - is a whole different story.

From the stories initially reported, I believe the parents have been minimizing and placing blame on others instead of accepting their culpability and working toward ensuring their kids get back in their care. My personal opinion is the parents have been working harder on trying to garner support for their "too much government" agenda and not working toward recognition of how their actions and beliefs have harmed their relationship with their children.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I got to thinking about this case. CPS does not advertise to media when they remove children from the home. This case had to have broken (to the media) via the parents. I doubt we would ever know about this case (unless there was a child death/near death or kidnapping). IIRC this case broke when the parents alleged their children were taken because of MMS use in this home, then it morphed into "those terrible teenagers who wanted to go to public school and tantrummed", to fear of the family fleeing in their already packed van, to allegations of physical abuse.

The parents knew from the very first day what the allegations were (IMO). The reason we don't know what is actually happening is because of the gag order and the only info leaking out is via the parents (that I am aware of). The fact that the children are still under State Protection and only allowed supervised visits with their parents (whether in the home or outside of the home) confirms that the children were in danger of harm and the State has come up with a "safety plan" for reunification with their children. The parents have some work to do to ameliorate the issues that brought the kids into care. Now whether they are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that the State's concerns are no longer a safety issue for the children - is a whole different story.

From the stories initially reported, I believe the parents have been minimizing and placing blame on others instead of accepting their culpability and working toward ensuring their kids get back in their care. My personal opinion is the parents have been working harder on trying to garner support for their "too much government" agenda and not working toward recognition of how their actions and beliefs have harmed their relationship with their children.

Bingo!

 

[Margo/Mom]

I got to thinking about this case. CPS does not advertise to media when they remove children from the home. This case had to have broken (to the media) via the parents. I doubt we would ever know about this case (unless there was a child death/near death or kidnapping). IIRC this case broke when the parents alleged their children were taken because of MMS use in this home, then it morphed into "those terrible teenagers who wanted to go to public school and tantrummed", to fear of the family fleeing in their already packed van, to allegations of physical abuse.

The parents knew from the very first day what the allegations were (IMO). The reason we don't know what is actually happening is because of the gag order and the only info leaking out is via the parents (that I am aware of). The fact that the children are still under State Protection and only allowed supervised visits with their parents (whether in the home or outside of the home) confirms that the children were in danger of harm and the State has come up with a "safety plan" for reunification with their children. The parents have some work to do to ameliorate the issues that brought the kids into care. Now whether they are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that the State's concerns are no longer a safety issue for the children - is a whole different story.

From the stories initially reported, I believe the parents have been minimizing and placing blame on others instead of accepting their culpability and working toward ensuring their kids get back in their care. My personal opinion is the parents have been working harder on trying to garner support for their "too much government" agenda and not working toward recognition of how their actions and beliefs have harmed their relationship with their children.

BTW--I recall that the woman who moderates the FB site reported after the first day in court that "it's more serious than we realized." Now, while she has continued to stand by the family, I do believe that she initially bought into the "just MMS" version of events. And there were local friends who helped with some yard clean-up which I would surmise posed a health threat to the children. As someone has suggested, the real possibilities for someone living a "prepper" lifestyle with End of Days beliefs could range all the way to advanced weaponry and who knows what-all else. It has entered my mind that the Sheriff's Deputy feared a Waco-like stand off if the children were not removed at that time.

But, I think the real sticking point for the family (based on Michelle writing about having to face up to "lifestyle changes") is going to be facing up to their religious commitment to corporal punishment carried out beyond the point of simply inflicting temporary pain, but to break the will of the children.

 

[wenwe4]

I pseudo-transcribed Michelle Stanley's videotaped statement. (not every word is exact but close enough)

Here is the link for reference:
http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/7-...homeschool-family-to-remain-in-state-custody/

Here is my transcript:
Michelle Stanley
Our children were taken from us without saying one word why. There was a search warrant for MMS that’s what they came to search our house for. . . we did not know a single thing about any other allegation until the last few seconds of the office closing on Friday we were consulting with a lawyer and they made us sit there and wait until the office closed before they faxed it to him.
He went through it with us and just bomb after bomb of laying it on me after a long day of meeting the kids for the first time since they left, finding out they had put them in public school already, everything I found out that day – it was the worst day of my life and then to find out the betrayal and the things that the kids said that weren’t true. So many things that day finding out but again . . . they did it on the last minutes of Friday everything was closed and we had a 3 day weekend.
They are upset maybe because of the media. I did not do . . the media took off on itself because they talked to us . . not once did they ask us anything – they just interviewed our kids. They never once said why they were taking them never gave us a clue. The DHS that’s their job to say whether it is safe or not and the DHS Dept and their investigators were here and they were very comfortable the kids were safe so when Mike Right decided no they are not and said I’m gonna take them into holding and he did.
The focus in the beginning was the MMS that’s what the search warrant was that was why the media ran with that, we didn’t try to give them a false impression – they didn’t tell us what that was we were scratching our head, and because we have two teenagers and they had them in the van for over 5 hours and Im going oh my goodness what are my teenagers saying . . and we thought they gave the impression that they were waiting in the van they had to be examined because they might have MMS present in them. Clean bill of health, nothing in them .. .
They had to ask the kids what would happen if they leave them here and both of my teenagers said we would pack them up and flee. And because we go camping we have a van that has some camping gear that we leave in it so if we go camping it’s less time to pack. One of my children said “and matter of fact the van is packed” and the other one said “if you leave us here they will pack us up tonight”.
So I thought maybe that was the reason our kids were taken but now they are saying . . the sheriff I just heard the press release 15 or 10 minutes ago, and I’m just going (shakes head) child abuse? Neglect?
Anyone who’s ever been in my house knows these kids are not abused and they are not neglected. Our house is full of all the provisions, anything they don’t want to wear like shoes, we have over 200 something pair of shoes, they choose not to wear them. Anybody ever had a child out there that likes to go barefooted?
America your’e fired up because if they can do it to us they can do it to your kids. If they had a problem they should have come to us. The Neigh. . . the friends that worked with them – shame on you! Back in the olden days when a man was beatin on his wife – three grown men would go and face that man with what he was doing. But now you have to go to the authorities – you can’t come talk to us like mature adults and discuss it.. I mean even to . . .
I’m sorry we didn’t have the perfect family, because of our teenage situation and our first older kids, realizing that maybe it might have something to do with us because of our raising them having to do with us even though we are doing better than most people. We are still questioning our parenting skills even though we went through Total Transformation and had difficulty implementing it because of the reward system we don’t have the means to give them allowance we give them lots of privileges but of course the kids – you can give them 10 and then you say no one place and it’s like everything is no.
Anybody rec....you know understand that? But you know these grown adults didn’t have enough discernment to know what they are dealing with and they went riding on their words and I understand the concern and that’s fine but they what they have on us I don’t think it justifies taking all the kids. My little ones they will never be the same, the teenagers they want to go to public school – fine they can stay. We will do anything.
The MMS is just gone – it’s not worth that. We were using it for the aquaponics to balance the pH for the fish and my husband he’s old-ER than me and he wants to be around to raise the kids and so he’s just getting his body needs more acid. He tests it and he watches his acidity goes up . . it goes down and alkaline. He’s been having great benefits from it.
If we let them get away with this – it’s gonna be y’all next. I love my teenagers, and Hal’s not a perfect Father – but he loves them. If we’re guilty of something – we’re guilty of loving them.
Our only hope right now to keep this from dragging through the court is to have a lot of support to be out there at 1:30. There’s a lot of people who know us – to be people for our defense who know us. But we need everybody out there for our rights for our liberties.
One thirty is whenever it’s gonna be get out there early. We have witnesses – anybody knows us who wants to get out there and witness for us.
Its walking through the house and rooms are empty. If feel like just like a when a person dies and they’re gone. Just like and their rooms are empty, our house is empty.

 

[wenwe4]

Here is what just jumps out to me from Michelle's statement.
1) Claims didn't know why children were picked up until last minutes of Friday. The kids were picked up on Jan 12th (a Monday). CPS had a 72 hour hold on the children and a shelter care hearing had to have been held (I assume) in order to continue placement of these children. These parents had to have been in court to hear the initial allegations.
2) All the "bombs" she heard from her children's "betrayal" is the very reason that CPS spoke to the kids without parents present.
3) Back in the "olden days" when a man was beating his wife - 3 grown men would go and talk to him because they didn't have CPS (or DV shelters) in most states until the late 1970's or early 80's!
4) IIRC Total Transformation is a complete house involvement. Everyone living in the home has rules and even adults get "tickets" for misbehavior (ie: like speeding tickets of you go too fast). The whole concept is if anyone is caught doing anything bad there are consequences. If you talk rudely to sister, you pull 3 behavior tickets (ie: clean the sink, take out the garbage, say something nice to your siblings) to immediately make amends for your bad behavior. You don't get a "pass" for being an adult. Rewards for good behavior can be whatever the family makes them to be (ie: Johnny earned the right to have an entire day off from a certain chore).
5) 200 pairs of shoes? Is her name Imelda Marcos? That is more than 10 pair of shoes for everyone in the family! Do those shoes actually fit or are they just random sizes picked up at yard sales?
6) The media was alerted by this family - I am sure of it. She mentions that it is now a part of their CPS case and it's not their fault because the "media ran with the MMS". These parents were trying to start an outrage over the MMS issue and deflect the real issues away from their parenting.
7) Comments about the older kids wanting to attend public school and it was the parent's greatest nightmare blows me away for 2 reasons. a) the children are receiving an appropriate education in school and that part should never be horrible to a parent, and b) the kids are being socialized around their peers which is something they will eventually have to do when they grow up and get jobs of their own. (IMO)
8) She admits that they aren't perfect parents - in fact she alludes to her husband not being a perfect parent and doing something he shouldn't have (at least with the older teen children). She admits they have struggled as the children age with their parenting skills. The teens are doing exactly what they are supposed to do developmentally. They are supposed to individuate from their parents. They are developmentally becomining individuals with their own ideas, beliefs and goals. This seems like it runs against the highly regimented "holier-than-thou" parenting style these parents portray with the scripture and the anti-government propaganda. (JMO)
9) I agree with the kids - I do believe they would have packed up and fled the area. I think the reason for the multiple LEO agencies on scene at the home (if true) were solely for the fear of multiple weapons on the property. (nothing to support this idea - just my gut)
10) Her entire focus was on garnering support against the government instead of worrying about how the kids might be feeling, what they were thinking, how they were sleeping/eating, what was going on in their every day life, etc. I think she just wants to be right not that she wants to be the best parent she can for the best interest of her kids.

JMO/MOO

 

[MyBelle]

I'll be sure and let my friends who choose to home school know they really don't hold a candle to the more appropriate public high schools that have weapon scanners at the entrance and they really are depriving their little angels the opportunity to socialize with their "peers."

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

might want to check into the history of Garland County Sheriff's department- and disciplinary action in the department in general -

All it takes is one over zealous deputy -

Now, from the original statement from the Sheriff's office
"“It’s never our desire as law enforcement officers or the Garland County Sheriff’s Office to remove any child from a home. However, it’s my commitment to protect all citizens of Garland County, especially minor children who simply cannot protect themselves. Although I cannot comment further as this is an ongoing investigation involving minor children, this case may lead to criminal arrests and charges being filed. It was the opinion of onsite investigators with the Garland County Sheriff’s Department and Arkansas State Police the children were at risk of serious harm and the decision was made to remove the minor children from the home pursuant to the Arkansas Child Maltreatment Act, 12-18-1001"

7. procedures for immediate steps to be taken to ensure and protect the safety of a victim of child abuse or neglect and of any other child under the same care who may also be in danger of child abuse or neglect; and ensuring their placement in a safe environment (section 106(b)(2)(B)(vi) of CAPTA) Ark. Code Ann. § 12-18-1001); DCFS Policy II-D

That's a whole lot of wiggle room, with 6 weeks to bring those criminal charges - and yet nothing.

Very true. But, hey, the authorities ALWAYS get it right, dontchaknow? Give 'em time and they surely will find something that justifies the emotional trauma to a four-year-old after removing him not only from his home but also his mother. It is all a'ok because the Sheriff, who had been in office more than a week, NEVER makes mistakes and Arkansas CPS is perfect!!

JMO

 

[808paradise]

I'll be sure and let my friends who choose to home school know they really don't hold a candle to the more appropriate public high schools that have weapon scanners at the entrance and they really are depriving their little angels the opportunity to socialize with their "peers."

JMO

Really?!?!? Not all public schools have weapon scanners. And not all parents are good homeschool teachers. There is no one size fits all. And geeze, cut the snark a bit.

 

[MyBelle]

Really?!?!? Not all public schools have weapon scanners. And not all parents are good homeschool teachers. There is no one size fits all. And geeze, cut the snark a bit.

All of my public high schools have weapon scanners that were put in place after a school shooting by a student in another city.
The principal was giving students breathalyzer tests at homecoming ten years ago. I'm not the one who needs a reality check.

JMO

 

[human]

BTW--I recall that the woman who moderates the FB site reported after the first day in court that "it's more serious than we realized." Now, while she has continued to stand by the family, I do believe that she initially bought into the "just MMS" version of events. And there were local friends who helped with some yard clean-up which I would surmise posed a health threat to the children. As someone has suggested, the real possibilities for someone living a "prepper" lifestyle with End of Days beliefs could range all the way to advanced weaponry and who knows what-all else. It has entered my mind that the Sheriff's Deputy feared a Waco-like stand off if the children were not removed at that time.

But, I think the real sticking point for the family (based on Michelle writing about having to face up to "lifestyle changes") is going to be facing up to their religious commitment to corporal punishment carried out beyond the point of simply inflicting temporary pain, but to break the will of the children.

Inflicting temporary pain? Do people think it is OK to inflict temporary pain on a spouse, neighbor, relative?

Why do children get the privilege of experiencing pain?

 

[human]

Agreed that some aspects are a bit wobbly. The following list comes from http://www.stoparchildabuse.com/discipline.htm and is sourced to the Arkansas Division of Child and Family Services--and I would presume that it derives from Administrative Code:

•Striking a child on the face or head
•Shaking a child under age three
•Shaking any child in a way that causes physical injury
•Striking a child with a closed fist
•Throwing, kicking, burning, biting, or cutting a child
•Interfering with a child’s breathing
•Threatening a child with a deadly weapon
•Pinching, striking, or biting a child’s genitals
•Causing greater than passing pain or leave more than minor temporary marks
•Tying a child to a fixed or heavy object or binding or tying a child’s limbs together
•Giving a child or permitting a child to consume or inhale a poisonous or noxious substance not prescribed by a physician that can interfere with normal functions
•Giving a child or permitting a child to consume or inhale a substance that can alter their mood, if it has not been prescribed by a physician, including but not limited to: marijuana; alcohol (except alcohol used in a recognized and established religious ceremony); narcotics; inappropriate over-the-counter drugs or even appropriate over-the-counter drugs if a person purposely administers an overdose to a child and the child suffers negative consequences from the overdose or inappropriate over-the-counter drug
•Exposing a child to chemicals that have the capacity to interfere with normal functions, such as chemicals used or generated during the making of methamphetamine
•Causing a child to believe they have an illness they do not have (Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy) if the incident is reported and confirmed by medical staff or a medical facility

The terms "greater than passing pain" and "more than temporary marks" would seem to be key, in this case. However, the references to exposure to chemicals that have the capacity to interfere with normal functions, as well as those concerning the actual giving or permitting a child to consume a poisonous or noxious substance is also very likely included.

At this point there is at least superficial evidence available to the public (the presence of MMS in the household has never been denied; and Hal Stanley's sermons are very clear with regard to his belief in chastening with a rod beyond the point of inflicting pain) BTW--while the "without justification" clause is pretty wobbly, Michelle's latest statement seems to object even to such a wobbly accusation. Her stand seems to be that parents--by dint of being parents--have God given justification at all times.

I love this! Major sarcasm.

Apply this to yourself.

Who on this earth would you allow to do this to you?

Why can this be done to children!!!!!!???????

 

[human]

Good question. I'm not sure why I'm being grilled on what I believe. My religion has absolutely nothing to do with this case. One thing I do wholeheartedly believe is in the concept of religious tolerance.

JMO

Hm. Does that go for female genital mutilation? Does that apply for Muslim beliefs or Satanic?

 

[human]

I'm betting our prisons are overwhelmingly populated with former teenagers who weren't required to follow house rules. I also don't know any teenager who can be forced to actually listen to a sermon rather than daydreaming through it.

JMO

Actually our prisons are overflowing with people who were physically, emotionally and sexually abused.

 

[808paradise]

All of my public high schools have weapon scanners that were put in place after a school shooting by a student in another city.
The principal was giving students breathalyzer tests at homecoming ten years ago. I'm not the one who needs a reality check.

JMO

None of the schools where I live have weapon scanners. None of the schools my children went to had them. None of the schools my nieces and nephews go to have them.