Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[BBB167893]

Well, one scenario: that night, JR was molesting JB either in JB's bedroom or in another area of the house. When Patsy couldn't sleep that night and woke up to find her husband not in bed, she suspected what she had been starting to know more consciously, and grabbed a flashlight to "find" them. When she did the image was more than she could handle or be prepared for, and she snapped and knocked JB over the head with it (we know she was impulsive based on, to give just one example, her bizarre calling-in to the Larry King show post Diana's death).

I've always felt like the flashlight, having been wiped down, is the most likely assault tool in the house. And it makes sense that Patsy could snap after catching her husband and daughter in the act.

Here's an alternate scenario: JB tells Patsy that JR was molesting her, and Patsy flipped out at her.

 

[BBB167893]

sandover,
Many PDI like this theory, and who knows it could be correct, but why wipe the flashlight clean, then leave it in plain sight for the police to inspect, why not dump it deep in a drawer somewhere?

Why should Patsy then assist in a coverup, why not dial 911, blame the abuser and claim involuntary homicide or its equivalent?

Most juries would sympathise with Patsy, in these circumstances, so I reckon there was more going on?


.

I suspect Patsy didn't want to loose her gravy train and "good name."

Speaking for myself, folks, I am often shocked at how many women will protect their molesting husbands/brothers/etc., for whatever reason.

Here's a for-instance: most of us have probably heard of John Couey, the creep in Florida who murdered Jessica Lunsford. What you may not know is that he had a HISTORY of molesting little girls. Upon his first arrest for molestation, he admitted that he had molested his ex-wife's daughter, and that the ex-wife KNEW about it, but refused to report the crime. All she demanded was that they get divorced and he hit the road. And it doesn't end there! Couey's sister, in whose home the Lunsford attack occurred, told the police that Couey had molested two of her daughters years earlier. Yet not only did she allow him to move in, she helped him try to escape when she heard he was wanted by the police.

That's not even mentioning the numerous examples of mothers who blame the victims in molestation cases.

 

[UKGuy]

Speaking for myself, folks, I am often shocked at how many women will protect their molesting husbands/brothers/etc., for whatever reason.

Here's a for-instance: most of us have probably heard of John Couey, the creep in Florida who murdered Jessica Lunsford. What you may not know is that he had a HISTORY of molesting little girls. Upon his first arrest for molestation, he admitted that he had molested his ex-wife's daughter, and that the ex-wife KNEW about it, but refused to report the crime. All she demanded was that they get divorced and he hit the road. And it doesn't end there! Couey's sister, in whose home the Lunsford attack occurred, told the police that Couey had molested two of her daughters years earlier. Yet not only did she allow him to move in, she helped him try to escape when she heard he was wanted by the police.

That's not even mentioning the numerous examples of mothers who blame the victims in molestation cases.

SuperDave,
Weird, but there is no doubt it happens. Curiously none of the pediatricians or experts suggested Corporal Punishment did they, was that just a BPD thing?

For me its one of the parents abusing JonBenet with the other half agreeing to a coverup, or its BDI with both parents in a coverup, along with the DA, and BPD?



.

 

[madeleine]

the more I think of it the more I believe the staging was done by an amateur,doesn't fit JR's style,character and knowledge....maybe it's true that he started having red flags only when he discovered jb (much earlier that morning IMO)..but the reason he agreed to shut up was cause he was the one abusing her (maybe PR just wanted to get rid of the competition,she always felt life was a beauty/attention contest)

cause if BDI/parents covering up,JR would have been in charge of the staging and it wouldn't have turned out be such a ridiculous one

 

[UKGuy]

the more I think of it the more I believe the staging was done by an amateur,doesn't fit JR's style,character and knowledge....maybe it's true that he started having red flags only when he discovered jb (much earlier that morning IMO)..but the reason he agreed to shut up was cause he was the one abusing her (maybe PR just wanted to get rid of the competition,she always felt life was a beauty/attention contest)

cause if BDI/parents covering up,JR would have been in charge of the staging and it wouldn't have turned out be such a ridiculous one

madeleine,
What if its BDI with John and Patsy arriving late on the scene? Patsy might be amending John's earlier staging done upstairs? Most of the physical staging appears to have been done by Patsy, aspects featuring Patsy's possessions, e.g. her paintbrush, and size-12's?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

madeleine,
What if its BDI with John and Patsy arriving late on the scene? Patsy might be amending John's earlier staging done upstairs? Most of the physical staging appears to have been done by Patsy, aspects featuring Patsy's possessions, e.g. her paintbrush, and size-12's?

UKGuy,

What if its BDI with B. using the size 12 underwear? What if he is the one covering up what he did to her, and neither parent knew about that feature, so they are trying to explain it. You yourself mention, and I agree, that perhaps the parents didn't know about certain elements - like the pineapple, therefore they could not account for, nor factor into the equation. Perhaps the size 12 is such a huge issue because B. is the one who put them on her....just like he may be the one who got out the tea and pineapple and had a snack with JBR.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

What if its BDI with B. using the size 12 underwear? What if he is the one covering up what he did to her, and neither parent knew about that feature, so they are trying to explain it. You yourself mention, and I agree, that perhaps the parents didn't know about certain elements - like the pineapple, therefore they could not account for, nor factor into the equation. Perhaps the size 12 is such a huge issue because B. is the one who put them on her....just like he may be the one who got out the tea and pineapple and had a snack with JBR.

Whaleshark,
It could be, but if you take John's fibers into account, then the size-12's were likely put on JonBenet after she was wiped down. But in theory it could have happened.

The thing that is curious that neither JDI or PDI explains is why if the parents had 4 hours to do the staging and check it over did they make mistakes that contradicts their own version of events?

.

 

[sandover]

UKGuy,

What if its BDI with B. using the size 12 underwear? What if he is the one covering up what he did to her, and neither parent knew about that feature, so they are trying to explain it. You yourself mention, and I agree, that perhaps the parents didn't know about certain elements - like the pineapple, therefore they could not account for, nor factor into the equation. Perhaps the size 12 is such a huge issue because B. is the one who put them on her....just like he may be the one who got out the tea and pineapple and had a snack with JBR.

It certainly is possible Burke got the pineapple snack, but we all know that it is literally impossible that Burke wrote that ransom note -- and that note was obviously written AT LEAST an hour before the 911 call, probably much much earlier.

So even if Burke did most of this on his own (which seems unlikely to me) at some point the parents "woke up" or he told them what happened and they "reviewed" his staging work, wrote the ransom note etc.

This to me is why the "they wouldn't overlook things like the breakfast bar" argument ultimately doesn't make sense. If they had time and a clear state of mind to review Burke's staging they would have gotten rid of these things.

But they did not (or PR did not) have a clear state of mind and so many errors were made in the chaos of that evening.

To me, the intruder theory has about a 1% chance of being true, while BR doing almost all of it himself is less than that. Even if BR initially struck JB, at the very least PR was involved in the cover up from almost moment one.

 

[Whaleshark]

It certainly is possible Burke got the pineapple snack, but we all know that it is literally impossible that Burke wrote that ransom note -- and that note was obviously written AT LEAST an hour before the 911 call, probably much much earlier.

So even if Burke did most of this on his own (which seems unlikely to me) at some point the parents "woke up" or he told them what happened and they "reviewed" his staging work, wrote the ransom note etc.

This to me is why the "they wouldn't overlook things like the breakfast bar" argument ultimately doesn't make sense. If they had time and a clear state of mind to review Burke's staging they would have gotten rid of these things.

But they did not (or PR did not) have a clear state of mind and so many errors were made in the chaos of that evening.

To me, the intruder theory has about a 1% chance of being true, while BR doing almost all of it himself is less than that. Even if BR initially struck JB, at the very least PR was involved in the cover up from almost moment one.

well, yeah. Burke definitely didn't write that ransom note, not saying that.

We have elements and features from each ramsey don't we?

so it can still be BDI with J and P covering up

 

[madeleine]

madeleine,
What if its BDI with John and Patsy arriving late on the scene? Patsy might be amending John's earlier staging done upstairs? Most of the physical staging appears to have been done by Patsy, aspects featuring Patsy's possessions, e.g. her paintbrush, and size-12's?


.

lots of scenarios are possible...one thing is clear though to me...there is something very wrong with this staging and it doesn't have to do with the one/ones who did it being in a hurry and forgetting things....the elements just contradict each other....badly...it's like the left hand didn't know what the right one's doing,very strange....anyway,what they say re finding&reading the RN is pure bs IMO....at least one of them is lying about it...MAYBE not both,after all JR is the one who said call the police,maybe PR wasn't expecting that?another thing I am pretty sure of is JR lied re his trips to the basement ( re the timing and also maybe re finding the body)

that's the problem with this case and that's why it wasn't solved yet IMO,ALL 3 are very good suspects and possible killers...you can't be sure of anything re who did what

 

[UKGuy]

lots of scenarios are possible...one thing is clear though to me...there is something very wrong with this staging and it doesn't have to do with the one/ones who did it being in a hurry and forgetting things....the elements just contradict each other....badly...it's like the left hand didn't know what the right one's doing,very strange....anyway,what they say re finding&reading the RN is pure bs IMO....at least one of them is lying about it...MAYBE not both,after all JR is the one who said call the police,maybe PR wasn't expecting that?another thing I am pretty sure of is JR lied re his trips to the basement ( re the timing and also maybe re finding the body)

that's the problem with this case and that's why it wasn't solved yet IMO,ALL 3 are very good suspects and possible killers...you can't be sure of anything re who did what

madeleine,
Yes, and why would Patsy apparently do so much?


.

 

[Chrishope]

lots of scenarios are possible...one thing is clear though to me...there is something very wrong with this staging and it doesn't have to do with the one/ones who did it being in a hurry and forgetting things....the elements just contradict each other....badly...it's like the left hand didn't know what the right one's doing,very strange....anyway,what they say re finding&reading the RN is pure bs IMO....at least one of them is lying about it...MAYBE not both,after all JR is the one who said call the police,maybe PR wasn't expecting that?another thing I am pretty sure of is JR lied re his trips to the basement ( re the timing and also maybe re finding the body)

that's the problem with this case and that's why it wasn't solved yet IMO,ALL 3 are very good suspects and possible killers...you can't be sure of anything re who did what

I agree. The staging is just inherently flawed. The single biggest problem is that there is both a RN and a dead body on the same premises. Realizing this is wrong should have taken no more than a nanosecond after the idea occurred.

OTOH, they did get away with it, so maybe the way to stage a crime scene is to have as many contradictions as possible.

 

[sandover]

I agree. The staging is just inherently flawed. The single biggest problem is that there is both a RN and a dead body on the same premises. Realizing this is wrong should have taken no more than a nanosecond after the idea occurred.

OTOH, they did get away with it, so maybe the way to stage a crime scene is to have as many contradictions as possible.

I think this is right on. Had they been thinking more "rationally" they probably would have made some tell-tale error. Investigators for too long have been looking at this in a "rational" way, piecing together evidence, trying to find the logic...

Whatever happened, these Ramseys did not plan for it to happen. Whatever they might have done, they decided to make it look like an intruder came into the house and killed JonBenet. They were panicked, traumatized, confused, sleepless, and scared. They threw everything but the kitchen sink at this staging and the sheer craziness of it has helped them get off (that long with that little bit of unidentified DNA).

The practice note alone probably took an hour to arrive at. The four hours they had to stage this crime -- four hours maximum -- was not enough for them to think it through.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

well, yeah. Burke definitely didn't write that ransom note, not saying that.

We have elements and features from each ramsey don't we?

so it can still be BDI with J and P covering up

It's still down to who knelt on JonBenet's back and pulled that cord tight.
That is what killed her.

I don't think Burke would of thought to do that if he hit her and she went down. He would of thought she was dead. Would he tell Pasty he hit her and Pasty started staging on her own?

Or would Pasty of woke John up at some point and he re did the staging? I don't think Burke would of known about a pack of panties gift wrapped in the basement. and put them on her.

The knots on the garrotte could of been done by John or Pasty, but I tend to lean toward Pasty doing it and then the staging because of John going straight to the wine cellar on the second search.


The housekeeper LHP says in PMPT that she told Pasty they needed a laundry basket, but never got one. She said that John used the laundry chute.

Pasty might of grabbed John"s shirt and wiped JB down and put the shirt back with the other dirty laundry and that would explain the fibers from his shirt on her.

I'm trying to remember in what interview Pasty was asked about red and black hair ties (it might of been when she was asked about the red turtleneck) in the bathroom and they had photos of the pot holder maker on a dresser in JB's bedroom ,and it makes me think JonBenet could of had them around her neck like a necklace and Pasty could of straggled her with them.

If something happened in the bathroom between Pasty and JonBenet, Pasty could of grabbed them and slung her down and she hit her head.

I think the kitchen lights were off so JonBenet could be carried down to the basement and not be seen and maybe the flashlight was used when the ranson letter was born.

I keep thinking there is sense in the nonsense of what happened that night.

I'm tired, my meleation is kicking in so if any thing doesn't make sense I won't be offended.

 

[madeleine]

madeleine,
Yes, and why would Patsy apparently do so much?


.

maybe just for the image?image was very important to her.you have no idea what some women are capable of just to protect their family image,they lie,they manipulate,I know someone who does it,it's shocking,really.oh my family is so perfect,my husband doesn't beat me,doesn't cheat on me,bla,bla...when it's damn obvious it ain't so and everybody can see the truth...I wouldn't be shocked at all to find out that she did it all just for the image (would also explain all the ridiculous tv appearances)
just a thought

 

[asyousay]

I have been trying to read some stuff but its so over whelming .

But surely if PR/JR did this then Burke knew something as well. There is no way they would of been calm if they had just killed JBR. So they would of been running around like headless chickens so the noise surely would of woken there son. And why would he keep quiet ?

 

[DeeDee249]

I have been trying to read some stuff but its so over whelming .

But surely if PR/JR did this then Burke knew something as well. There is no way they would of been calm if they had just killed JBR. So they would of been running around like headless chickens so the noise surely would of woken there son. And why would he keep quiet ?

They weren't calm. They WERE running around like headless chickens. AND BR said he heard them and only pretended to be asleep. He admitted this to police. If you need to read up on the case, this site is an excellent resource. It has everything you need. Police interviews with the Rs, crime scene photos, autopsy report. Just scroll down and click on the "JonBenet archives"
http://www.acandyrose.com

 

[KeyboardCat]

Even with the DNA evidence 'pointing away' from any Ramsey involvement, I'm not surprised that the majority of those that participated in this poll still believe there was Ramsey participation in the crime/cover up.

I certainly don't disagree.

I just think its a tragedy that the 'unknown DNA' sample is being compared against samples in whatever crime database, instead of every single person who she came into contact with the days prior to her murder. My belief is that this unknown DNA came from a person who the Ramsey's called for help, unable to perhaps stage this by themselves.

Sure would love them phone records.

 

[DeeDee249]

Even with the DNA evidence 'pointing away' from any Ramsey involvement, I'm not surprised that the majority of those that participated in this poll still believe there was Ramsey participation in the crime/cover up.

I certainly don't disagree.

I just think its a tragedy that the 'unknown DNA' sample is being compared against samples in whatever crime database, instead of every single person who she came into contact with the days prior to her murder. My belief is that this unknown DNA came from a person who the Ramsey's called for help, unable to perhaps stage this by themselves.

Sure would love them phone records.

It has been discussed here many times (by myself as well as others) that we would have wanted to see that male DNA tested against every male known to be at the White's party, even males who were children at the time. We do not know if this was done, nor can any of these males be compelled to comply. I JB was known to ask ANYONE to help her wiping in the bathroom. Skin cells on the waistbands of her clothing, even if not the clothing she was found in, can certainly be transferred to her own hands and that of her parents. This is why the DNA CANNOT be seen to exclude anyone or to prove an unknown intruder. It is because it is skin cells, and skin cells transfer in ways that other DNA does not.
The Rs have said that BR had friends over Christmas Day, before going to the White's. Were THEY tested? I bet not. Not suggesting any of them was involved in the crime, but they could have been a source for the DNA, even if they did not touch JB or her clothes. If they touched a door knob or toilet handle or pretty much anything that was then touched by JB or her parents, that would also have transferred those skin cells and the resulting DNA to her clothes.
It isn't that we choose to ignore that male DNA- it is simply a matter of that DNA being from skin cells (aka Touch DNA) and simply a matter of FACT that it appears NO WHERE else on the body or the entire crime scene that leads us to believe that it is there as artifact and NOT part of the crime.

I always like to bring up another potential donor- one who seems to have slipped off the radar of possible donors in this case. There was a young man who worked delivering bodies to the morgue. He transported JB's corpse, and there is a "morgue log" that lists every body brought in and the time they arrived at the morgue. This man was arrested for trying to sell that morgue log. I always felt that someone skeevy enough to do that would also be the type to "take a peek" at JB, pulling down her longjohns and panties to do so. Yet, no one ever thought to test him for a match- at least not that I have seen.
So you see, there are very sound reasons why some of us do not feel the male DNA is necessarily linked to the crime. It isn't that we are so wrapped up in the Rs guilt that we refuse to consider other options. It is more that there are no other options that stand out as able to be considered. The FACT is that every bit of fiber evidence ON THAT BODY comes from the parents. And while some IDI say that parental fibers are expected to be found- it was their child and their house- these fibers are found only in or on items directly related to the crime and from clothing worn by the parents the night of the crime.
This includes a paint tote, garrote KNOT and duct tape from JB's mouth which have red and black fibers from Patsy's fleece jacket- a jacket she TOLD police she never wore in the basement AND on items that remained in the basement when Patsy threw herself on JB's COVERED body.
Then we have JR's fibers INSIDE the panty crotch. Not in a place where you'd get them unless you pulled those panties up or down. JB denies doing this. He WAS, however, PROVED to have put his fingers on the two very places the Touch DNA was found- the waistbands of her panties and longjohns. He was SEEN carrying JBs body upstairs, holding her upright (more like a large mannequin) with his hands around her waist. Patsy also claimed she pulled those longjohns on her. Now do you see how someone else's skin cells could have gotten there via the parents' own hands?
There was also a forearm hair belonging to Patsy that was found on the white blanket covering the body. In an interview with police where she is shown photos of JB's bed, Patsy admits under questioning that it is apparent that NO blanket could have been pulled off that bed without disturbing the foot section- which is undisturbed in the photo. Add to this the housekeeper's comments that the white blanket was always laundered in the basement because it did not fit in the smaller washer outside JB's room and her comments to police that the sheets on JB's bed were not the set she put on the bed when she was there last (the 23rd) and I think we can deduce that JB wet the bed on the 24th or 25th and Patsy put those sheets on the bed herself and didn't bother to go to the basement to get the white blanket. With all there was to do on Christmas and the upcoming trip, I can see why, and most busy moms might do the same thing- just make the bed with clean sheets and leave the blanket till you get back. NO ONE but the housekeeper and Patsy knew where that blanket was- in the basement dryer. NO intruder would know that, and frankly, no intruder needs to cover or hide the body anyway. What's the point?
I think we can infer that Patsy was the one who took that blanket out of thy dryer in the basement, for the purpose of laying JB on it and wrapping her in it (NO intruder would care about this). This forearm hair (aka an ancillary hair) was falsely stated as a "pubic hair" Even after it was identified as belonging to Patsy. Some of these glaring errors were never corrected in the media. They haunt us to this day.
And BTW, it is a glaring falsehood that still won't go away that there was matching male DNA under her fingernails. The FACT is that there was NO identifiable DNA found under her nails at all. What was found was degraded- NOT fresh and NOT deposited that day. NO skin, NO tissue, NO blood and NO scratches on her neck. She did not struggle with anyone else or struggle against the garrote. The marks on her neck are petechiae. (Little burst capillaries common in strangulation deaths).

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

:moo:I post on many other cases here, but the JBR case has long since left the realm of my thinking. I must say for 15 years this case has been dissected, written about numerous times, Patsy Ramsey is no longer here, and the ineptness of Boulder Law Enforcement has been crucified.

I dare say there has been more attention to this case, even 15 years later. My theory is "It is what it is" a beautiful young child was murdered in her own home by someone yet to be identified. This may be one of those cases we never have answers for. However I truly believe if the family was involved in any way someone somehow would have slipped up and said something to someone in these past 15 years. Since there has been no evidence this has happened I chose to believe they are NOT responsible in any part with Jonbenet's death.
Maybe one day someone will confess, and they will have the evidence for an arrest. Until then how can anyone believe the Ramsey's are to blame when they have been under the microscope from day one. Surely by now they would of been imprisoned .

There are so many children who have disappeared and could benefit from the talent here at WS, this just seems like time that could be put to better use in finding some of these other children who have recently been abducted or murdered.
....and that is my take on the matter---JMO<JMO<JMO:moo: