Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[Eagle1]

Is it more of a Michigan thing than a California or Colorado one?

In another thread, where we're claiming to go crazy, I mentioned a little boy's being hanged in a barn in the very town where Central Mich U is, right before or maybe during JR's time there, never believed a 13-yr old would even know the e.a. game, but college frat guys would. I don't know how they'd know the boy, unless seeing him around town or at sports events. You wouldn't think barns would be on the main streets where some families probably rented out parking spaces during university sports events but maybe so. It's probably an old town. I've never been there. Any way we could ever find out if JR heard of this incident, probably still news when he was in school in the town? (Mt. Pleasant)

 

[RedChief]

Here's what's wrong with the accident theories involving any or all of the Ramseys:

If the cord around the neck got there accidentally, how do you explain the blow to the head?

If the blow to the head occurred first, how do you explain the strangulation ligature? I know some of you have already explained this in your PDI theories. I'm looking for new explanations.

Even the [Patsy swung at John when she found him molesting her daughter theory] isn't satisfactory. Prior to the bleeding vaginal injury, which appears to have been deliberately, if not maliciously, inflicted, what was the evidence, if any, of the molestation? If there had been clear evidence of it, then one might surmise that the Ramseys elected not to call for help, and thinking that the child was mortally wounded anyway (beyond help), opted for staging a homicide.

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested that John got mad at JB and struck her, so we could have him making the same decisions as Patsy did.

If we suspect that Burke struck JB, either in anger, or accidentally while swinging a bat, for example, we have the same difficulty. If the parents knew about it, why wasn't emergency assistance summoned?

It seems to me that the only theory involving an accidental beginning to the homicide is one in which the parents both thought she was dead, or clearly beyond redemption.

Try to picture it: the girl has vital signs; her heart is beating, else the intracranial bleeding wouldn't have occurred, nor would the petechial hemorrhaging associated with the neck ligature have occurred. And why would you choose to stage strangulation on a breathing girl? She was breathing. She was their daughter. With a little effort you could know that she wasn't dead.

Try to picture it: your daughter lies dying of a head injury and you think, boy, I'd better hurry up and strangle her because she won't live much longer. If I tarry then she'll die prematurely and my strangulation staging won't do any good. The ME will know that she didn't die from strangulation. I'd better hurry.

These parents are hardened criminals with knowledge of how to stage a convincing strangulation? And so clever that they realize they have to hurry up and get that cord around her neck and tighten it BEFORE she dies of the head wound????? It's hard to imagine.

Now, Burke, I don't know him; what he's like now. When the crime occurred he was 9 years old, going on ten. He might have whacked his sister on the head, accidentally or in anger and let her lay--she would have died soon after. On the other hand, he might have alterted his parents immediately. I don't really know how he felt about his sister in those days. Does anyone? Why would HE need to apply staging to domestic accident, and, in so doing, turn it into a homicide?????

This crime has all the indicators of an "outside job".

That's the way I see it....

 

[BlueCrab]

[QUOTE)=RedChief

This crime has all the indicators of an "outside job".

Perhaps, but I think this crime has all the indicators of an "inside-out job".

 

[RedChief]

Who are they? "Why did they do this?" "Can you fix it?"

The body is found in the wine cellar behind a closed and latched door. It is wrapped in a blanket which Patsy tells John came from JB's bed. Near the body is JB's Barbie gown. She's dressed in her sequined shirt; the one she wore to the Whites', and longjohns and size 12-14 underpants--way too big. There's blood in the underpants and her pubic area and thighs appear to have been wiped. There are dark fibers in the folds of her labia and the same dark fibers on the outside of the clothing she is wearing. Her underpants and longjohns are urine-stained. She is sockless and there is lint on the soles of her feet. Her arms are extended beyond her head. She's sporting three pony tails, two of which seem to have been arranged ad hoc. She's wearing a necklace and other jewelry. A strangulation ligature is fastened tightly around her neck and a cord is fastened to her wrist/s. There are some abrasive injuries and bruises. On her body at various locations there are marks that might have been made with the use of a stun gun. The autopsy discloses that she's received a mightly blow to the head which produced an 8 1/2 long comminuted fracture in her skull. The cause of death is determined to be ligature strangulation in association with brain trauma.

Allow me to digress--I just got through talking to a gal who raised a girl child. When I told her about the size 12-14 panties, she said there is no way that size 12-14's would even begin to fit a normal 6-yr-old; if she were standing when she put them on and then let go of them to don her black velvet pants, they'd fall down around her ankles, she said. Make of that what you will. When I explained that the child's body had been found in a basement storage room and a ransom note left, she was flabbergasted. She said, whether snatching the girl for sex or for ransom, the perp would get her out of the house as quickly as he could. Make of that what you will. When I first discussed this case with my sister, a few years ago, she was similarly flabbergasted. Haven't we all been flabbergasted with the evidence in this case.

The parents tell us that their daughter was asleep when they deposited her on her bed and removed her shoes and black velvet pants, replacing the pants with longjohns and retaining the white sequined shirt that she had worn to the Whites'. The parents tell us that they did not replace her underpants in the process and that the underpants didn't slide off her hips and down her legs in the undressing process.

Crime scene photos show JB's pink pajamas on her bed. The parents tell us that in order not to disturb the sleeping child, they opted to clothe her in the longjohns instead of the pajamas. Are the pajamas one-piece or two? Another reason they have given is that they didn't see the pajamas because it was dark in the room and the pajamas were laying partly under a pillow and concealed from view. Some say the bed looks unslept in. Some say the comforter doesn't appear to have been disturbed in the process of removing the blanket as it should have been. Some have noted that the sheets on the bed were not those that LHP had installed 2 days prior. Make of that what you will. It is no secret that JB was a frequent bedwetter.

In JB's small intestine, near the entrance, is found bits of partially digested pineapple. The stomach is empty of particulate matter. It appears that JB died about 1 hour after eating the pineapple. The parents have insisted that they did not feed her pineapple that night and were unaware that she had eaten any pineapple. There was a small bowl of pineapple with an outsized spoon found sitting on a breakfast room table where the kids often supped. Near the bowl was an empty glass which had apparently been used for drinking tea. A tea bag was also present. The bowl contained fingerprints of both Patsy and Burke. JB's fingerprint/s were absent. There has been no mention of anyone's fingerprints on the tea glass. Burke was the family tea drinker. JonBenet was the family pineapple eater.

A strange ransom note was shown to the authorities when they arrived. It said JB had been kidnapped and would be returned alive if the Ramseys would pay the weird $118,000 ransom as per instructions. Patsy had a college degree in journalism.

We have things in the wine cellar that are consistent with what the parents said JB had been wearing when they put her to bed. They suggested that the size 12-14 underpants had been put on by none other than JonBenet herself and taken from a drawer where her regular underpants weren't kept. This despite that the authorities removed 15 pair of regular sized underpants from a drawer in the bathroom. We have things in the wine cellar that are probably deemed by most as inconsistent with a botched attempt at kidnapping. Certainly the brain injury and the strangulation ligature and the sexual injury aren't consistent with kidnapping. They are more consistent with execution and torture. There was really only one item that was consistent with kidnapping--the piece of tape over the mouth, short though it was. The cord around the right wrist was of dubious value. We have a Barbie gown that even the parents say is strangely present. Patsy was unable to identify it at first from looking at the photos. Patsy also expressed bewilderment when she looked at the photos of the pineapple bowl with the titanic spoon.

When John said it looked like an inside job, what did he mean? That was a spontaneous characterization that came moments after he found the body.

But, if an inside job, involving one or more of the Ramseys, then whatever became of the original panties, and the remainder of the duct tape (assuming the gag had come from a roll), and the remainder of the cord, if any, and the stun gun, if such were used? Whatever became of the cloth that was used to erase evidence?

Who knew that JonBenet had been killed or mortally wounded, and how and when? There were the events of that night, and of that morning into early afternoon, and there are the events of the last several years--the interviews and time to prepare for them. There were four people that we know of who went into that house Christmas night. One of them, a little six-year-old girl, came out the following evening in a body bag.

Still got some work to do......

 

[Nehemiah]

What do we know about the fireplace? Was it wood-burning, was it used, had it been used prior to the 26th?

 

[GuruJosh]

Now, Burke, I don't know him; what he's like now. When the crime occurred he was 9 years old, going on ten. He might have whacked his sister on the head, accidentally or in anger and let her lay--she would have died soon after. On the other hand, he might have alterted his parents immediately. I don't really know how he felt about his sister in those days. Does anyone? Why would HE need to apply staging to domestic accident, and, in so doing, turn it into a homicide?????

i am still waiting for more info on this precise issue. It seems that apart from everyone's theories about how 10 year olds behave; about what the extremes of 10 yo behavior can be; about how their cousin's neighbor's 10yo behaves... even about how their OWN 10yo behaves... despite all this, we still have very little idea about Burke at all.

Really, we need to find out more about this person, IMO.

 

[BlueCrab]

i am still waiting for more info on this precise issue. It seems that apart from everyone's theories about how 10 year olds behave; about what the extremes of 10 yo behavior can be; about how their cousin's neighbor's 10yo behaves... even about how their OWN 10yo behaves... despite all this, we still have very little idea about Burke at all.

Really, we need to find out more about this person, IMO.

Mom, am I fat? What's wrong with me? Everybody's oohing and aahing over her. You know, because of course, she's so perfect."

Burke Ramsey; age 9

 

[narlacat]

Mom, am I fat? What's wrong with me? Everybody's oohing and aahing over her. You know, because of course, she's so perfect."

Burke Ramsey; age 9

What source is that from Bluecrab??
"am i fat?" That is a very strange thing for a boy to say,i can imagine a 9 year old girl saying that but not a boy.
I guess it is sexist of me to say that boys dont suffer anorexia and the like...it is more a girl thing though
Burke could have been jealous of JB,she was extemely pretty and seemed more than capable at alot of things....in comparison to my 6 year old boy she could do things that he cant do at the same age...eg bike riding,rollerblading...hula hooping
That sentence alone tells me he could be jealous.....

 

[BlueCrab]

Mom, am I fat? What's wrong with me? Everybody's oohing and aahing over her. You know, because of course, she's so perfect."

Burke Ramsey; age 9

What source is that from Bluecrab??
"am i fat?" That is a very strange thing for a boy to say,i can imagine a 9 year old girl saying that but not a boy.
I guess it is sexist of me to say that boys dont suffer anorexia and the like...it is more a girl thing though
Burke could have been jealous of JB,she was extemely pretty and seemed more than capable at alot of things....in comparison to my 6 year old boy she could do things that he cant do at the same age...eg bike riding,rollerblading...hula hooping
That sentence alone tells me he could be jealous.....

Marlacat,

I can't find the source of that quote. I wrote it down about six or seven years ago while compiling a 200-page manuscript on the case, but the source has eluded me. But I assure you, it exists somewhere.

 

[GuruJosh]

are there any convincing "John Did It" theories?

from most RDI accounts, John is a creepy guy.

Creepy in a weird quiet ambitious scheming type way, although there was an employee of Access who described her "intuition" about sexual abuse in his family (intuition is pretty cheap tho really, isn't it?)

I can actually buy a BDI theory. The one i can't buy is "Patsy did it AND STAGED IT"

The staging bit seems completely beyond the "capabilities" (if that is the right word!) of any female i have ever met.

The level of acting post-killing.. the continuation of this Academy-Award winning performance, hot on the heels of a fake ransom note, a fake reaction when the police came, and, well, a FAKE EROTIC ASPHYXIATION OF HER OWN DAUGHTER! Come on!

maybe as a man i just dont understand women yet after all these years but i think that at least the strangulation, whichever order it occured in, must be the work of a male.

If it was Patsy, i think that level of violence in a woman would have manifested itself long before, in other serious ways. To think she just thought "ok that's that, i'll maintain the cover up till i die" just sounds loopy!

EDIT: sorry i just found a 'loopy' icon. Neat! :waitasec:

 

[narlacat]

I agree that the strangling would have to have been done by a male.
Could John do that? Ive read she was laying face down when being strangled....maybe cause he couldnt bring himself to look at her face?
Seems like it would be hard to strangle someone lying face down....but im no expert.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The hard evidence supports an outside job.

Here is the hard published evidence that supports the intruder(s) theory:


Contained in the killer’s written statement:



“We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.”

“We respect your business but not the country that it serves.”



The only rationale behind discounting this evidence would involve even harder evidence that contradicts the killer’s statement.



There’s plenty of opinion, speculation and hearsay, but no hard evidence to contradict the killer’s written statement.

 

[BlueCrab]

Holdontoyourhat,

So why then are the Ramseys lying their heads off and covering up in every way they can to protect the identity of the killer of their daughter; a person who also represents a small foreign faction and who doesn't even respect the U.S.A.? Would you lie, refuse to fully cooperate with the investigation, and coverup to protect the identity of the killer of YOUR daughter?

 

[UKGuy]

Holdontoyourhat,

So why then are the Ramseys lying their heads off and covering up in every way they can to protect the identity of the killer of their daughter; a person who also represents a small foreign faction and who doesn't even respect the U.S.A.? Would you lie, refuse to fully cooperate with the investigation, and coverup to protect the identity of the killer of YOUR daughter?

Well I guess I might if it also involved my or any of my family's participation in any hitherto unknown criminal activity!

Lets suggest a secretive informal liberal lifestyle, engaged in occassionally with friends.

But when the balloon goes up, the drawbridges are raised and said friends and associates rally round offering material and moral support, including undercover pro-ramsey media campaigns which encompass the internet and print media in their scope, as well as the odd makeup session.

 

[BlueCrab]

Well I guess I might if it also involved my or any of my family's participation in any hitherto unknown criminal activity! Lets suggest a secretive informal liberal lifestyle, engaged in occassionally with friends.

UKGuy,

I guess you're suggesting the possibility of familial incest, with the occasional participation of certain friends -- and one of those friends murdered JonBenet. And the Ramseys know who it is but if they turn him in the other sordid stuff comes out and all of the Ramseys go to jail.

That's a possibility, but I think the reason the Ramseys are covering up is solely to protect a Ramsey. There may have been a non-Ramsey accomplice, but a Ramsey is directly involved and that's the basis for the endless lies, losses of memory, obfuscations, refusals to cooperate, and coverups.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

I guess you're suggesting the possibility of familial incest, with the occasional participation of certain friends -- and one of those friends murdered JonBenet. And the Ramseys know who it is but if they turn him in the other sordid stuff comes out and all of the Ramseys go to jail.

That's a possibility, but I think the reason the Ramseys are covering up is solely to protect a Ramsey. There may have been a non-Ramsey accomplice, but a Ramsey is directly involved and that's the basis for the endless lies, losses of memory, obfuscations, refusals to cooperate, and coverups.

BlueCrab,

Yes something along those lines. If not then the Ramseys must have called in a few favors after JonBenet's death. Since lets say a few of their friends and associates seemed to behave in a curious manner. Look at the Stines packing up and moving state!

Also if any teens or preteens are involved then where did they learn to behave in the manner thats alleged? Playing doctor must be a common childhood event, and there is not any reported homicides, to correlate with those.

So I would speculate JonBenet's death trancends "Playing Doctor", the forensic evidence suggests a violent homicide, with a minimum of two consequent stagings. Each to mask the relationship of the perpetrator to the victim.

So it may be that they are covering up to protect a ramsey, but that ramsey may not have committed the homicide. JonBenet's killer may be a trusted family friend. Someone who babysat and knows the routines and house layout.

Someone JonBenet would snack pineapple with as they drank some tea, and this someone would also remember to wipe his glass clean along with the flashlight.

Now if John and Patsy were simply covering up, say for Burke, then why does the coverup have to extend all the way back to JonBenet returning back from the Whites! What is it that needs to be hidden so far back in time?

 

[narlacat]

Creepy in a weird quiet ambitious scheming type way, although there was an employee of Access who described her "intuition" about sexual abuse in his family (intuition is pretty cheap tho really, isn't it?)

Guru
I just have to say ,no your intuition is not cheap. Cant have someone going through life thinking that lol.
Intuition is knowing something-but not knowing how you know it.
Ex: you bypass a parking space because you "know" there is a space closer to where you're going.
It is a tool we have been given to help us to make the right decisions in life.
I know when i ignore my 'gut feeling' or my little 'hunches' i regret it later.
Narlacat

 

[narlacat]

Now if John and Patsy were simply covering up, say for Burke, then why does the coverup have to extend all the way back to JonBenet returning back from the Whites! What is it that needs to be hidden so far back in time?

uk guy
when you say extend all the way back to JonBenet returning from the Whites...are you talking about JonBenet being asleep in the car and asleep when she arrived home?
I think the R's thought it better to say she was asleep and that that was the last time they saw her alive,when she was asleep.
We know they thought it better to say Burke was asleep the next morning.

 

[UKGuy]

Now if John and Patsy were simply covering up, say for Burke, then why does the coverup have to extend all the way back to JonBenet returning back from the Whites! What is it that needs to be hidden so far back in time?

uk guy
when you say extend all the way back to JonBenet returning from the Whites...are you talking about JonBenet being asleep in the car and asleep when she arrived home?
I think the R's thought it better to say she was asleep and that that was the last time they saw her alive,when she was asleep.
We know they thought it better to say Burke was asleep the next morning.

Precisely, including the possibility that JonBenet never went to bed as described. She may never have been in bed at all!

The parents account of her being put to bed is inconsistent and at points simply evasive, due to memory loss.

Yes sleep is a neat way to avoid any form of explanation, either by Burke or JonBenet, but enough evidence exists to suggests she never went to bed as per the ramsey statements.

Especially after the crime scene is cleaned up and another created and staged, then abandonded as per the kidnapping and so onto the wine-cellar scenario ...

 

[Toltec]

Yes, that's one possible explanation.

And Angel, I was positive it was PR's sister Pam she said that to, but can't reach my book down from a shelf to check it, sore arm. Maybe some laziness about getting out a step.

Anyway, as I just replied in another thread, Anyone Else Alarmed, I think, there were some very odd behaviors by most of the Rs' circle of friends.

FW's behavior in Atlanta wasn't the first time it seemed odd. There was the taking JonBenet to the bathroom, and no doubt lots of other incidents.

I've asked "What could be the tie that binds" this circle of friends? Did Susan Stine just simply not want the party interrupted by police, or could there have been another reason for turning them away at the door, such as maybe letting an abused child get the idea law enforcement would be on their side?

"MR MOM" was babysitting...what do you expect him to do when JonBenet pees her pants? He walked JonBenet home with one hand holding the wet panties, the other hand holding onto JonBenet.

I hope he had the sense to place the wet panties in a plastic sack before walking her home....