Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo, I am open to getting to a resolve on the commission of this crime in whatever way it can happen.

I want to believe that the current DA in Boulder would have the guts to prosecute this case with enough probable cause, since there is PLENTY of common knowledge that former DA's were lucky not to have their butts taken to task by agencies higher up for obstruction of justice, collusion, and any other bogus junk they did for getting in the way of prosecution. Hunter and Lacy ended up with careers in the dumper along with any respectable credibility they thought they had.

And if I remember correctly, the Ramsey's were UN-Exonerated, and have NEVER been cleared. There is something about Garnett that gives me hope he would not want to follow the same path, and would also have the ability to handle this case WITHOUT bringing any more harm to any of Boulder's finest. Besides, how much more damage could be done, and wouldn't they stand to finally glean a great deal of importance if they were to be able to close this case once and for all?

As for anyone not knowing what we think we know, what is it you want us to know? I can entertain a RADI theory (Acquaintance) even with Ramsey forensic evidence being so prominent in the case, because of the aspects of evidence that are NOT forensically tied to them. I cannot dismiss the involvement of the Ramseys, with at least what has been called a cover-up displaying so much direct Ramsey evidence.

Being aware of evil that is beyond the imagined grasp of some, it would never surprise me that there are aspects of this case that are out of the realm of most to accept or acknowledge. But until someone, somewhere leaks something that can absolutely be tied to a specific individual other than the two initial chargeable suspects (JR and PR) which were once on the hot seat, OR THE AVAILABLE evidence changes, I still feel, as do many others, that JR is culpable in this case and that a trial is the only way possible to bring it to resolution.

Time gone by does not change the fact that BPD had probable cause based upon factual evidence. What changed the case over the years was the involvement of corruption from those who got away with it. It it PAST TIME for the right thing to be done - bring charges in a case where enough evidence already exists for probable cause. :furious:

My comment was not so much for you but was more directed to all the people on this site who seem to be dog-piling onto either BDI or RDI. It frustrates me to the point of anger to see people doing this, especially regarding BDI. If it feels right so it must be right. It is thinking like that which leads to dead ends and no justice for JB. At the time I posted this I thought you were one of those, but I realize now you are not, so my apologies.

There is no doubt in my mind that JR is involved and guilty. He needs to be investigated and prosecuted, but IMO that can never happen unless we step back and think outside the box. To my understanding RADI has never been seriously investigated by anyone and I would love to see it because I think it would lead to answers instead of going in endless circles and ending up at countless dead ends as it has been from the beginning with this crime. I would like to see a serious discussion here of RADI to see how that fits with all the known evidence. Something meaningful could come out of such an analysis. It is a great theory and deserves to be fully explored to see where it leads.

 

[DeeDee249]

My comment was not so much for you but was more directed to all the people on this site who seem to be dog-piling onto either BDI or RDI. It frustrates me to the point of anger to see people doing this, especially regarding BDI. If it feels right so it must be right. It is thinking like that which leads to dead ends and no justice for JB. At the time I posted this I thought you were one of those, but I realize now you are not, so my apologies.

There is no doubt in my mind that JR is involved and guilty. He needs to be investigated and prosecuted, but IMO that can never happen unless we step back and think outside the box. To my understanding RADI has never been seriously investigated by anyone and I would love to see it because I think it would lead to answers instead of going in endless circles and ending up at countless dead ends as it has been from the beginning with this crime. I would like to see a serious discussion here of RADI to see how that fits with all the known evidence. Something meaningful could come out of such an analysis. It is a great theory and deserves to be fully explored to see where it leads.

Bottom line- ALL persons who were present in the home at the time of the crime remain suspects UNTIL and UNLESS a KNOWN, NAMED suspect is identified. This includes BR as well as his parents, like it or not. If is is ever proven that someone else committed this crime, I'll be so happy to remove BR from that list of suspects. Until then anyone who believes him to be involved in this crime on any level has a perfect right to do so. Of course, there are many theories and they all have some degree of validity. I for one, would be THRILLED to know that someone OTHER than her own family did this. And I will be the first one to say so.
As far as RADI goes, as I have said, I cannot see the Rs KNOWING who did this and keeping silent unless they are protecting themselves or another family member, which includes their son(s). That doesn't mean this theory should not be explored. ALL valid theories have merit as long as none have been proven to be wrong. Unfortunately, where it LEADS is right back to the Rs, because there is absolutely no reason for them to protect anyone else who may have done this. We are talking about a dead child here. That isn't something you "overlook" or just keep quiet about. If the family was not involved themselves on some level they would not just stand by and let someone else get away with it.

 

[midwest mama]

Bottom line- ALL persons who were present in the home at the time of the crime remain suspects UNTIL and UNLESS a KNOWN, NAMED suspect is identified. This includes BR as well as his parents, like it or not. If is is ever proven that someone else committed this crime, I'll be so happy to remove BR from that list of suspects. Until then anyone who believes him to be involved in this crime on any level has a perfect right to do so. Of course, there are many theories and they all have some degree of validity. I for one, would be THRILLED to know that someone OTHER than her own family did this. And I will be the first one to say so.
As far as RADI goes, as I have said, I cannot see the Rs KNOWING who did this and keeping silent unless they are protecting themselves or another family member, which includes their son(s). That doesn't mean this theory should not be explored. ALL valid theories have merit as long as none have been proven to be wrong. Unfortunately, where it LEADS is right back to the Rs, because there is absolutely no reason for them to protect anyone else who may have done this. We are talking about a dead child here. That isn't something you "overlook" or just keep quiet about. If the family was not involved themselves on some level they would not just stand by and let someone else get away with it.

The family was involved, absolutely no doubt in my mind either, DD. Because I don't want to believe that lovely child could have been murdered by someone in her own family and the cover-up conspirators are sick enough to be out living life every day without the slightest shred of conscience that it would take to resolve this case, I can only hang on to the hope that they are living with the threat of extreme damage, to the possibility of death threats on other family members.

And that type of collusion could only indicate involvement with a group that has worldwide connections and evil power more than most can imagine. Some must be "sacrificed" for the sake of keeping the group well protected. The R's might have lost some finances, health, and the high life as they knew it, but they continued to hold on to living outside of jail and with the rest of their family intact, which kept them stuck to their story like glue. And any protection they have needed over the years has been at the ready. WHY??

 

[Anyhoo]

The family was involved, absolutely no doubt in my mind either, DD. Because I don't want to believe that lovely child could have been murdered by someone in her own family and the cover-up conspirators are sick enough to be out living life every day without the slightest shred of conscience that it would take to resolve this case, I can only hang on to the hope that they are living with the threat of extreme damage, to the possibility of death threats on other family members.

And that type of collusion could only indicate involvement with a group that has worldwide connections and evil power more than most can imagine. Some must be "sacrificed" for the sake of keeping the group well protected. The R's might have lost some finances, health, and the high life as they knew it, but they continued to hold on to living outside of jail and with the rest of their family intact, which kept them stuck to their story like glue. And any protection they have needed over the years has been at the ready. WHY??

I don't believe that those who participated in the death of JBR are living under any threat at all. They got away with it clean, so clean in fact that LE never even seriously looked in their direction when trying to solve the crime. And now, sixteen years later with LE without a clue except for some partial DNA, they are safer than ever. What have they to fear?

I share your thoughts and feelings about the circumstances surrounding JBR's death. I believe the R's as well as other people the R's knew in Boulder were connected with this group you speak of. The reason LE has never solved this crime to this day is that they refuse to believe in the existance of such a group. It is impossible to solve a crime if the solution to it exists outside of what you believe is possible. Either that or this group has made sure that the investigation was hopelessly compromised.

 

[midwest mama]

I don't believe that those who participated in the death of JBR are living under any threat at all. They got away with it clean, so clean in fact that LE never even seriously looked in their direction when trying to solve the crime. And now, sixteen years later with LE without a clue except for some partial DNA, they are safer than ever. What have they to fear?

I share your thoughts and feelings about the circumstances surrounding JBR's death. I believe the R's as well as other people the R's knew in Boulder were connected with this group you speak of. The reason LE has never solved this crime to this day is that they refuse to believe in the existance of such a group. It is impossible to solve a crime if the solution to it exists outside of what you believe is possible. Either that or this group has made sure that the investigation was hopelessly compromised.

BBM

Nuff said. If true, it is going to take at least one person with heart, conscience, and belief in the glory that waits from true salvation to come forward with the one bit of truth that will bring this case to a conclusion.........at least to a resolve that is publicly acceptable and will be able to bring justice to the death of an innocent. :cry:

 

[DeeDee249]

JB needs a hero. A hero that KNOWS the truth. I doubt her father or brother will step up.

 

[arielilane]

Maybe lizard lips' new wife is really getting the real story, and will write a book after LL is no longer here.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe lizard lips' new wife is really getting the real story, and will write a book after LL is no longer here.

arielilane,
She might if the R's estate do not look after her once he has returned to the swamp.

Any entitlement might be hedged with non-disclosure requirements, i.e. no books?


.

 

[SunnieRN]

The R's are quite something if you think about it. After Jon Benets murder, the R's and the Steins became close to 'glued at the hip'. I am really curious what they knew.

Did they run in different circles than the R's before Jon Benets and let the 'fame', prestige and money affect them? Did their son get the real story from Burke and they stayed close thinking that they needed to protect Burke?

Whatever it is, it amazes me that the R's have been able to 'hush' so many people.. People whom I believe know a lot more than they ever let on. It has been a long time now. If just one person would come forward, I think the whole puzzle would fall apart.

 

[UKGuy]

The R's are quite something if you think about it. After Jon Benets murder, the R's and the Steins became close to 'glued at the hip'. I am really curious what they knew.

Did they run in different circles than the R's before Jon Benets and let the 'fame', prestige and money affect them? Did their son get the real story from Burke and they stayed close thinking that they needed to protect Burke?

Whatever it is, it amazes me that the R's have been able to 'hush' so many people.. People whom I believe know a lot more than they ever let on. It has been a long time now. If just one person would come forward, I think the whole puzzle would fall apart.

SunnieRN,
DS, did discuss the case in detail with Burke Ramsey. In PMPT, Schiller writes:

Judith was a friend of Priscilla White’s and knew that the situation had been devastating for everyone. Susan Stine had called Judith and said, “Either you’re on the Whites’ side or you’re on our side,” as if this were a divorce. Susan Stine and Roxy Walker were “Patsy’s pit bulls.”

and ...

When the British crew arrived in Atlanta, Keene-Osborn and Glick were shaping the questions the Ramseys would be asked. Then, just days before filming was to begin, the Ramseys’ attorneys decided to place restrictions on what their clients would talk about—or could be asked about—on camera. Things got tense. David Mills reminded them of the written agreement, which stipulated that there would be no restrictions. John and Patsy broke the deadlock, saying they would be open to all questions and that their friend Susan Stine would do their makeup.

and ...

Hofstrom had prevailed over Michael Kane on one point. On July 21, Trip DeMuth had interviewed Susan Stine for five hours. She came without an attorney, and the interview wasn’t tape-recorded. DeMuth dug around to see if Patsy or John had perhaps confessed to the Stines while living in their home in 1997. Absolutely not, said Susan Stine, who came off as such a staunch supporter of the Ramseys that the DA’s staff wondered how much weight to give her statements.

and ...

At the Ramsey's party on 23rd December, there was a hangup 911 call. When police investigated, it was Susan Stine who answered the door telling them through the speaker that everything was fine. They went away. (Thomas & Davis,2000, p93)

So why Susan Stine to deal with police, why not one of the R's?


I reckon the Stines and the Ramsey's became so close, simply because they shared a similar purpose, i.e. protection of their children.


.

 

[midwestphd]

Maybe I am stating the obvious here, but has it been discussed that the Rs call their friends on the morning of the 26th in part to purposefully contaminate/compromise the crime scene? It's not long after that they start pointing fingers at all of their friends.

 

[Nom de plume]

Maybe I am stating the obvious here, but has it been discussed that the Rs call their friends on the morning of the 26th in part to purposefully contaminate/compromise the crime scene? It's not long after that they start pointing fingers at all of their friends.

Don't feel bad about asking. There are so many threads and posts here it is impossible to read everything. Almost everyone here is always glad to answer questions. It's how we all learned new facts and theories.

It has been suggested and discussed to an extent. I think most here agree that it was probably at least in part, the intended purpose. I believe it may also have been to take LEs sole focus off of the Rs, and to create a bit of a distraction. JR could not have disappeared for 90 some minutes had he and PR been the only ones in the house.

 

[DeeDee249]

Don't feel bad about asking. There are so many threads and posts here it is impossible to read everything. Almost everyone here is always glad to answer questions. It's how we all learned new facts and theories.

It has been suggested and discussed to an extent. I think most here agree that it was probably at least in part, the intended purpose. I believe it may also have been to take LEs sole focus off of the Rs, and to create a bit of a distraction. JR could not have disappeared for 90 some minutes had he and PR been the only ones in the house.

ITA. Also - there is no better way to present yourself as a victim than to bring in a posse of "victim's advocates.

 

[dodie20]

Maybe I am stating the obvious here, but has it been discussed that the Rs call their friends on the morning of the 26th in part to purposefully contaminate/compromise the crime scene? It's not long after that they start pointing fingers at all of their friends.

Yes,you are stating the obvious, but sometimes the obvious goes unnoticed! Like, I always thought that the Rs wanted to create confusion and use their friends as a buffer, but now that you mention it, maybe their real motive was to get FW, among others, in the house so their clothes fibers, fingerprints, etc would be all over the place. They may have even intended for 1 of them to handle that print free ransom note. From the ruthless way the Rs threw everybody and their brothers to the wolves, I wouldn't doubt it. moo

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I gotta tell you as someone coming into the JonBenet Ramsey forum to get info, There is so much it is overwhelming. I also kind of feel afraid to say what I think without back lash.

I am trying to sort through the opinions and supposition and get to fact and evidence. Even some of that is hard to figure out because some can go one way or another.

What I hope more than anything is that one day this little girl gets justice. I believe they will have a named killer one day. But I just don't think we know who that is yet.

 

[Nom de plume]

I gotta tell you as someone coming into the JonBenet Ramsey forum to get info, There is so much it is overwhelming. I also kind of feel afraid to say what I think without back lash.

I am trying to sort through the opinions and supposition and get to fact and evidence. Even some of that is hard to figure out because some can go one way or another.

What I hope more than anything is that one day this little girl gets justice. I believe they will have a named killer one day. But I just don't think we know who that is yet.

Don't be afraid to say what you think. You are polite and respectful of other posters, and I certainly hope that no one would ever attack you. We might attack your IDI theories with hard evidence, but never you personally.

There is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, to sort through. Acandyrose.com is a great place to catch up on all of it. A lot of this is common sense. You take the totality of it all, and then form a conclusion. There might be a piece or two if evidence that is nonconclusive, but when you add everything up where does it lead you?

We ALL want justice for JonBenet! We only differ on the perp.

 

[UKGuy]

I gotta tell you as someone coming into the JonBenet Ramsey forum to get info, There is so much it is overwhelming. I also kind of feel afraid to say what I think without back lash.

I am trying to sort through the opinions and supposition and get to fact and evidence. Even some of that is hard to figure out because some can go one way or another.

What I hope more than anything is that one day this little girl gets justice. I believe they will have a named killer one day. But I just don't think we know who that is yet.

Pirplegrl,
Consider the forensic evidence. Ignore opinion and supposition, consider your own opinions first, if they are wrong, then they will conflict with the forensic evidence.

Just publish your opinions, nobody knows who did it, it could be BDI, JDI, PDI, or any combination thereof. So your opinion will be as valid as the next persons.

.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Don't be afraid to say what you think. You are polite and respectful of other posters, and I certainly hope that no one would ever attack you. We might attack your IDI theories with hard evidence, but never you personally.

There is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, to sort through. Acandyrose.com is a great place to catch up on all of it. A lot of this is common sense. You take the totality of it all, and then form a conclusion. There might be a piece or two if evidence that is nonconclusive, but when you add everything up where does it lead you?

We ALL want justice for JonBenet! We only differ on the perp.

Thank you. I used to follow this case closely but the kind of felt like it just got so muddled after the John Mark Carr/Karr? incident. I really felt they had an answer and after that whole debacle, It just felt like people were grasping at straws.

To be honest, I am not sure what I think anymore. I just know before I stand on the sidelines of blaming parents for something so heinous, I need to be almost completely satisfied and I am not yet. Not even close.

I am glad this place is here. I feel like no matter what Victims finally have people fighting hard for them. And that is always a good thing.
Thanks for letting me be a part of the discussion. I will go to that site and start reading. I hope to pick up a few books too. I would like to get up to date.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

To be honest, I am not sure what I think anymore. I just know before I stand on the sidelines of blaming parents for something so heinous, I need to be almost completely satisfied and I am not yet. Not even close.

I know what you mean. If I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of the Ramseys not being guilty.

There is not nearly enough evidence for me to feel comfortable pointing my finger at the bereaved parents (or bereaved parent) of a brutally murdered child. Indeed, if I were to wager on the absolute truth, I'd bet heavily on this being a burglary gone bad with none of the Ramseys having anything to do with the death of JonBenet.

 

[dodie20]

The most glaring evidence that points to PR's involvement, IMO, is the ransom note. On the other hand, the main thing that points away from PR's involvement, at least to me, is the 911. She was very convincing. But I just thought of something and made a little connection. Remember the interview where PR's lip was quivering and she said someone was out there? Well, I couldn't quite put my finger on why, but this interview made me very uncomfortable, and I didn't buy her anguish.This is what I think made the difference. In the interview, we heard her voice and saw her facial expressions, while on the 911, we only heard her voice. Thinking about this made me wonder what her face was doing during the 911. IMO, if we had seen her facials, her performance wouldn't have been anymore believable than the interview. I found a little clip of the interview on youtube, and listened without watching, and I have to say, IMO, her voice was more believable without the facial contortions.