Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[Amity]

"*can you tell I don't have a clue what CASKU stands for?*"

Child Abduction/Serial Killer Unit. They're part of the FBI's Behavioral Sciences.

Wow SuperDave,Thank you!!

Well, I suppose I could give you Mike Kane's take on it: "this was a very theatrical production, and Patsy's a very theatrical person," but you'd be surprised at how elaborate staging can get? You HAVE to remember: when staging a crime, most people don't know HOW. They can only go by what they think a real crime looks like. There's no real complicated psychology behind it.

OK, after reading this, I gotsta go back to the drawing board.
Thanks again for all this unknown-to-me information!

 

[Chrishope]

The fibers attached to the duct tape on JBs mouth and the fibers found in JBs panties. Would the perp root through the house looking for Duct tape to use?

IMO, an intruder would have brought all necessary materials with him. But it could be argued that he found the duct tape while roaming the house for hours waiting for the family to return. It's popular among IDI theorists to say that certain materials were not "sourced" from the house. As far as I can see, this means they didn't find the remainder of the roll of tape (or the spool of cord, etc.) IMO that doesn't really mean it wasn't already in the house.

And even if the perp did exactly that, what are the odds that the fibers that were found on the tape be from the very same outfits they were wearing that prior evening?

Very low odds. The tape would have to have been, at one time, adhered to PR's clothing. Some people use tape this way to remove lint, but it seems more likely to me that the Rs had a lint roller.

The Rs stated they owned no such duct tape? Well alrighty then, how did the fibers of their clothing get onto the duct tape (which they claimed wasn't theirs) they found on JBs mouth?

Any thoughts from the IDI side?

IMO the Rs found the note and then immediately found JB, took off the duct tape, cradled her in their arms and thats how the fibers got onto the tape and in her panties. They had probably turned in for the evening and threw their clothes over a chair and climbed into bed and in the morning grabbed the same clothing in haste of the situation. I can't even imagine the hell they were in while cleaning, re-dressing their dead baby? My heart truely breaks for them.

????????

If they found her shortly after they found the note, then why wouldn't they tell police? Why would they rederss her? If they really had nothing to do with it, why all the lies? Makes no sense.

 

[kayebee]

There sat a mother and father willing to ruin their own lives and be put under constant scrutiny in order to protect the one and only child that they have left. I'm quite sure their lives have been pure hell since this tragedy occured and imo it will never end because they will indeed never ever confess the truth to anyone.

I don't think they thought it would ruin their lives. I don't think they thought they would be suspects, or that their lives would be scrutinized. They were wealthy and certainly John Ramsey, at least, was not used to having his word questioned. I think they thought they would fly off to Michigan and continue their lives there, and the police would not bother them too much with the investigation.

Although I've always believed the Ramseys did this, if we assume they are guilty, I've always wondered why John "discovered" the body. Why not just leave it there until some point when it was more practical to dispose of it? The discovery of the body in the house kind of ruined the whole kidnap ruse, if that's what they intended, and forced the police to focus on them as suspects. Think about it, if the body hadn't been discovered in the house, and all the evidence with it, wouldn't the ransom note have been taken more seriously? Wouldn't the investigation have gone in different directions? Would your opinion of the crime still be the same if the evidence consisted of only that ransom note and the Ramseys' behavior?

Again, assuming the Ramseys are guilty, why did John find the body? Why not let it be discovered in the normal course of the search of the house? Or why not just leave it there and get rid of it later? The condition of the body and the existence of the ransom note together in the same crime are what makes this crime so puzzling. The ransom note tries to point the finger at intruders, outsiders, but the discovery of the body in the house--so obviously not a kidnapping-- points suspicion right back at the Ramseys.

I know some folks are going to say that Patsy did this all on her own, and John unwittingly discovers the body in the basement, but I can't believe a wealthy and powerful man, already having left one wife, would feel bound to cover up for a woman who murdered one of his children.

Karen

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think John Ramsey knew what was going on that morning. I think he was part of the staging and he found the body when he did because the police hadn't yet, and he done waiting for that to happen.

There's no innocent excuse for the fibers of the clothing John and Patsy wore to be on their daughter's body. They asked John for an innocent excuse for why his shirt fibers would be in her underwear and on her pubic area, and he had no answer other than outrage at being asked. As for Patsy, she never wore that jacket in the basement, the tape never came upstairs, and how could the fibers be tied into the knot from her hugging her child?

Someone on another board tried to tell me that because police asked Patsy about the fibers in an interview and not in the deposition that they were lying to her about the fibers being found at all - anyone have any thoughts on that thought?

 

[scandi]

I read that the tape used - those 2 3" pieces, were taken off a doll in JB's bedroom. So the tape had been upstairs.

The general concensis is the killer spent some time in the house, so he might have even put the tape on the doll first in his warped attempt to simulate what he would be doing to JB. Soomeone put the earing on the teddy bear which was found in her bedroom, and the other earing that I believe matched it was found out in the street in front of the house by police.

I never heard that fibres from John's shirt were found in her underpants!

 

[MysteryAddict]

I don't think they thought it would ruin their lives. I don't think they thought they would be suspects, or that their lives would be scrutinized. They were wealthy and certainly John Ramsey, at least, was not used to having his word questioned. I think they thought they would fly off to Michigan and continue their lives there, and the police would not bother them too much with the investigation.

Although I've always believed the Ramseys did this, if we assume they are guilty, I've always wondered why John "discovered" the body. Why not just leave it there until some point when it was more practical to dispose of it? The discovery of the body in the house kind of ruined the whole kidnap ruse, if that's what they intended, and forced the police to focus on them as suspects. Think about it, if the body hadn't been discovered in the house, and all the evidence with it, wouldn't the ransom note have been taken more seriously? Wouldn't the investigation have gone in different directions? Would your opinion of the crime still be the same if the evidence consisted of only that ransom note and the Ramseys' behavior?

Again, assuming the Ramseys are guilty, why did John find the body? Why not let it be discovered in the normal course of the search of the house? Or why not just leave it there and get rid of it later? The condition of the body and the existence of the ransom note together in the same crime are what makes this crime so puzzling. The ransom note tries to point the finger at intruders, outsiders, but the discovery of the body in the house--so obviously not a kidnapping-- points suspicion right back at the Ramseys.

I know some folks are going to say that Patsy did this all on her own, and John unwittingly discovers the body in the basement, but I can't believe a wealthy and powerful man, already having left one wife, would feel bound to cover up for a woman who murdered one of his children.

Karen

"I can't believe a wealthy and powerful man, already
having left one wife, would feel bound to cover up
for a woman who murdered one of his children."

Great point!!

Both had to have been involved!

 

[BBB167893]

"I know some folks are going to say that Patsy did this all on her own, and John unwittingly discovers the body in the basement, but I can't believe a wealthy and powerful man, already having left one wife, would feel bound to cover up for a woman who murdered one of his children."

Well, and I'm just spitballing (for those of you who haven't heard that yet!), look at it this way: he'd already been married once, like you said. He messed up his first marriage by fooling around on wife#1. For him to come clean, he would have to admit to himself that he screwed up a perfectly good marriage only to marry a monster. That's hard to face!

 

[LinasK]

I think John Ramsey knew what was going on that morning. I think he was part of the staging and he found the body when he did because the police hadn't yet, and he done waiting for that to happen.

There's no innocent excuse for the fibers of the clothing John and Patsy wore to be on their daughter's body. They asked John for an innocent excuse for why his shirt fibers would be in her underwear and on her pubic area, and he had no answer other than outrage at being asked. As for Patsy, she never wore that jacket in the basement, the tape never came upstairs, and how could the fibers be tied into the knot from her hugging her child?

I agree Nuisance. I've been saying this all along, but I was on vacation last week and could only read, not post. There is no innocent explanation for John's shirt fibers to be in JB's pubic area. Washing in the laundry doesn't cut it, as some other posters who believed in JMK's guilt tried to theorize!

John carried JB up the stairs and Patsy threw herself on the body for the purpose of contaminating the evidence!!!

 

[questionable]

There is no way that anyone is ever going to convince me that John and or Patsy did such a thing to their own child, not in a million years. I have however changed my theory upon reading more evidence submitted and that has to do with the ransom note. Here we go again ....


John and patsy turned in for the evening and left Burke playing with his new gifts Christmas gifts and somewhere along that line JB awoke or was awaken by her brother. They were doddling around eating, playing etc when things got out of control. JB screamed and Burke then beaned her with the flashlight. I'm sure he didn't mean to fatally wound her, he just wanted her to stop screaming so she wouldn't wake the parents. Either the parents found her when they woke or maybe even Burke woke them saying he hurt JB and that's where the cover up begins. I"m even thinking now that PR did write that ransom note, probably with the opposite hand that she normally used.(no friend involved) All evidence points away from Burke and that was definately their intention. IMO there was no intruder, no pedophile, no anyone except those four people in that house when this tragedy occurred.

 

[questionable]

I agree Nuisance. I've been saying this all along, but I was on vacation last week and could only read, not post. There is no innocent explanation for John's shirt fibers to be in JB's pubic area. Washing in the laundry doesn't cut it, as some other posters who believed in JMK's guilt tried to theorize!

John carried JB up the stairs and Patsy threw herself on the body for the purpose of contaminating the evidence!!!

The fibers got where they were because of the staged re-enactment of the intial murder.

 

[s_finch]

There is no way that anyone is ever going to convince me that John and or Patsy did such a thing to their own child, not in a million years. I have however changed my theory upon reading more evidence submitted and that has to do with the ransom note. Here we go again ....


John and patsy turned in for the evening and left Burke playing with his new gifts Christmas gifts and somewhere along that line JB awoke or was awaken by her brother. They were doddling around eating, playing etc when things got out of control. JB screamed and Burke then beaned her with the flashlight. I'm sure he didn't mean to fatally wound her, he just wanted her to stop screaming so she wouldn't wake the parents. Either the parents found her when they woke or maybe even Burke woke them saying he hurt JB and that's where the cover up begins. I"m even thinking now that PR did write that ransom note, probably with the opposite hand that she normally used.(no friend involved) All evidence points away from Burke and that was definately their intention. IMO there was no intruder, no pedophile, no anyone except those four people in that house when this tragedy occurred.

The only problem I with this theory, is that she would have still been breathing and had a detectable heartbeat after Burke hit her, therefore the parents could have taken her to the ER and explained it was an accidnet (albeit a mighty harsh "accident" to leave an 8" crack in her skull) and with all of John's pull, Burke would have never suffered from anything more than humiliation and shame. As it is, he has suffered humiliation and shame anyway (although do doubt the R's never thought THEY'D be suspect). I can't imagine PR and JR saying, "Well, we don't want anyone to think Burke would hit his sister in anger so let's go ahead and kill her and make it look like an intruder/pedophile did it" UNLESS, JBR did have evidence of sexual abuse (autopsy say's "chronic" and in medical terms that means "on going" and "recurrent") and the parents were terrified of the sexual abuse being discovered during JBR's visit to the ER and subsequent hospital stay. Now that I can understand them wanting to cover up.

 

[close_enough]

I read that the tape used - those 2 3" pieces, were taken off a doll in JB's bedroom. So the tape had been upstairs.
The general concensis is the killer spent some time in the house, so he might have even put the tape on the doll first in his warped attempt to simulate what he would be doing to JB. Soomeone put the earing on the teddy bear which was found in her bedroom, and the other earing that I believe matched it was found out in the street in front of the house by police.

I never heard that fibres from John's shirt were found in her underpants!

yeah, & those dolls were one of the things that Patsy's sister took with her, when gathering things for John & Patsy, the next day....

 

[gaia]

BOTTOM LINE: Were the Ramseys involved? YOU BET YOUR @SS THEY WERE...THE EXTENDED FAMILY AS WELL!!

 

[Peter Hamilton]

yep,the poll results show 72% believe the Ramseys are involved---quite a solid majority here

 

[Pharlap]

yeah, & those dolls were one of the things that Patsy's sister took with her, when gathering things for John & Patsy, the next day....

Why was she aloud to take items from the crime scene?:waitasec:
You couldn't do that in Chicago....You'd be arrested..

Further more, when the body was found and marked as a crime scene, the cops should of put the Ramsey's in a hotel or motel and only let the cops, investgators in....NO ONE ELSE...:doh:

 

[questionable]

The only problem I with this theory, is that she would have still been breathing and had a detectable heartbeat after Burke hit her, therefore the parents could have taken her to the ER and explained it was an accidnet (albeit a mighty harsh "accident" to leave an 8" crack in her skull) and with all of John's pull, Burke would have never suffered from anything more than humiliation and shame. As it is, he has suffered humiliation and shame anyway (although do doubt the R's never thought THEY'D be suspect). I can't imagine PR and JR saying, "Well, we don't want anyone to think Burke would hit his sister in anger so let's go ahead and kill her and make it look like an intruder/pedophile did it" UNLESS, JBR did have evidence of sexual abuse (autopsy say's "chronic" and in medical terms that means "on going" and "recurrent") and the parents were terrified of the sexual abuse being discovered during JBR's visit to the ER and subsequent hospital stay. Now that I can understand them wanting to cover up.

You seem to be going under the assumption that the parents knew or found her right after it happened? JB imo was 'found dead' and nothing could be done about saving her, imo the cover up was all about saving the only son that they had left by tampering and re-directing the evidence away from him.

 

[rashomon]

Why was she aloud to take items from the crime scene?:waitasec:
You couldn't do that in Chicago....You'd be arrested..

One would think that this was a scene from really bad police movie - but the police actually allowed Pam Paugh to put on a police uniform when she was going to rummage through the crime scene and remove items. Incredible, isn't it? Truth is stranger than fiction.

Further more, when the body was found and marked as a crime scene, the cops should of put the Ramsey's in a hotel or motel and only let the cops, investgators in....NO ONE ELSE...:doh:

When 13-year-old Stephanie Crowe was found killed in her own home, the whole family was taken to the police station immediately. They were not allowed to talk to each other, had to give fingerprints and hair samples, and hand over the clothes they were wearing. This SOP should have been applied in the Ramsey case too.
But the police just stood there watching as the Ramseys more or less fled from the crime scene ("Let's get the hell outta here before anyone starts asking questions!").
Everything which could go wrong in that case went wrong. And the Ramseys profited from all those blunders.

 

[Credence]

One would think that this was a scene from really bad police movie - but the police actually allowed Pam Paugh to put on a police uniform when sh

e was going to rummage through the crime scene and remove items. Incredible, isn't it? Truth is stranger than fiction.

When 13-year-old Stephanie Crowe was found killed in her own home, the whole family was taken to the police station immediately. They were not allowed to talk to each other, had to give fingerprints and hair samples, and hand over the clothes they were wearing. This SOP should have been applied in the Ramsey case too.
But the police just stood there watching as the Ramseys more or less fled from the crime scene ("Let's get the hell outta here before anyone starts asking questions!").
Everything which could go wrong in that case went wrong. And the Ramseys profited from all those blunders.

I can't say if the Ramseys actually profited; but I guess you are RDI. I'm a FS, but IMO it definitely had an impact on finding the perp whether a RDI or IDI. I agree with the rest of your post. It is amazing to me that the clothing was collected an entire year later, that they were not separated and taken to the police station for questioning immediately including Burke and ANY items were allowed to be removed from the house. jmo

 

[narlacat]

<<One would think that this was a scene from really bad police movie - but the police actually allowed Pam Paugh to put on a police uniform when she was going to rummage through the crime scene and remove items. Incredible, isn't it? Truth is stranger than fiction.>>

Then she was hungry (I'm sorry but who could think of eating at a time like this- her niece was just brutally murdered fgs) so they took her to Macca's and shouted her lunch, still in uniform!

 

[Ames]

<<One would think that this was a scene from really bad police movie - but the police actually allowed Pam Paugh to put on a police uniform when she was going to rummage through the crime scene and remove items. Incredible, isn't it? Truth is stranger than fiction.>>

Then she was hungry (I'm sorry but who could think of eating at a time like this- her niece was just brutally murdered fgs) so they took her to Macca's and shouted her lunch, still in uniform!

LOL...A Happy meal, and a Diet Coke...right? I agree with you....my stomach would have been in KNOTS....and she also talked about herself almost the whole time. This COULD have been the conversation..."Hmmmm, could you help me load all of the boxes of evidence into the Police car?.....Thanks." "Wow....you know...that is so terrible about what happened to JonBenet....she was my favorite niece". " I can't believe that she was found murdered, and in the basement of her OWN home....bound and strangled, with a garotte!!! Poor JonBenet.....oh, by the way, could you swing by Mickey D's and grab me a Happy Meal and a diet Coke?....I am starving!!!"