Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[shelley921]

Excellent point. I think Travis seemed so confident and happy that it is easy to forget his childhood and the inner scars and wounds he was carrying - it had to have played into his vulnerability with Jodi.

recently on another thread, i said that because of his chaotic childhood, Travis might even have been attracted to "crazy". i got jumped on as if i was bad mouthing Travis. i was only saying his childhood could be an explanation for why he kept on with crazy jodi. many forum members interpreted it as me suggesting his judgement/character was somehow flawed.
that was not what i was saying at all. but the threads move so fast it's often hard to have a true discussion/understanding on any point, especially when everyone is reacting emotionally.

 

[shelley921]

I don't believe psychopaths are anywhere capable anything resembling remorse but I guess you'd also have to first have believe Gus Searcy...whom I admittedly don't. I think he revealed his true intentions when he basically admitted on the stand he approached the defense only because the prosecutor didn't call him back. He told Chris Hughes he had information that could either help or hurt her.

I think he wanted in on this case and he wanted the national stage. He does have a book to promote, after all.

Here's another blog with a different POV:

http://mycrimetime.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/gus-searcy-says-arias-called-him-after.html

Personally too, I find the testimony of Darryl (ex-boyfriend); Dr. Samuels; and Gus Searcy all suspect as each displayed obvious sympathy towards the defendant making me believe strong the manipulation is. (In my not so good Yoda impression.)

The mistake that author makes, SMK, in my opinion is confusing psychopathy with humanity and all that it entails. Not every murderer is also psychopathic but for those who are it is about as close to evil as one gets - insomuch as there is no conscience, no empathy, and no remorse for their victims - at all.

And if you study Jodi's interrogations, interviews, and testimony you will see, over and over again, how the subject always turns back to how murdering him affects her.

JMO

ETA: Personal tidbit to illustrate the lack of remorse component in psychopathic criminals. As I've stated many times on the main thread, my ex is currently in prison for drugging and raping his 14 year old niece after I'd filed for divorce.

He first claimed it never happened. Then stated it did but she'd been coming on to him. Then claimed he'd never have done it had I not left. Then stated not only had he never done it but he'd also never admitted he had. Lastly, he plead guilty to having done it...but only to receive a reduced sentence.

He tore his entire family apart. His mother believes him but his sister, and mother of the victim, would like nothing more than to tear him apart with bare hands. Grandma and victim's relationship is exponentially damaged. And ex still proclaims his innocence, blaming everyone else, despite overwhelmingly damning evidence to the contrary. He goes on and on to anyone who will listen how his life is forever ruined as a result of her 'claims'. Uh huh. :furious:

thanks kate--totally agree. gus was a slimy weasel and gave me the creeps. i don't believe him either. and as for jodi--yes it's all about HER and how everything affects HER. boo f-ing hoo.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Woe be gone: Travis said that Jodi looked like a twelve year old having an orgasm. This was when Jodi was wearing pigtails. He did not say he liked or would like to have a twelve year old girl orgasm. Imo

According to my memory, during their sex tape he told her, 'you sound like a twelve year old girl having her first orgasim'. The audio can probably be obtained but it doesn't change that he likes the thought of twelve year olds having orgasims. Perked my ears for sure.

Maybe that's something men discuss in their LDS discussions. :what: According to to Flora Jessop, it's common for men to take liberties with young girls in some sects of that religion.

http://on.aol.com/video/-escaping-e...1---flora-jessop-517716842#_videoid=517716844

True enough, but the implication is there; the idea was pleasing to him at least in fantasy. Of course there is a divide between fantasy and action.

In any event , Travis was not taking the Mormon vows of chastity seriously. Perhaps they have the ideal of chastity to prevent this kind of messy relationship from taking place before marriage. He in no way deserved or provoked the outcome.

In a sense, I can partly see what may have horrified Jodi: As a man, he could enjoy the kinky sex, leave it behind him, and begin looking to become a husband and father by dating young Mormon virgins. She on the other hand must have felt stale, used up, and marked. Feminism has not changed this divide at all.

Thank you for pointing out the double standard that still exists concerning men and women regarding their sexual appetites. This double standard makes me angry. If a woman is a *advertiser censored* and a *advertiser censored* because she does the same things men like to do then men should be judged the same - period. I'll take it a step further and say that a man should lead and treat every woman the way he prefers a woman to be - in other words, don't use the 'bad' woman for crazy sex and place the tame woman on a pedestal. That's the same man who will cheat on his wife anyway to get the raw sex from 'bad' girl. Men make the rules, right?

Something I appreciated yesterday was when JM put the test results for her MCMI on the overhead. She scored highest on Anxiety (75), then PTSD (69)... but even as interesting, the next highest scores were for antisocial (in the 60s), narcissism (in the 50s), and histrionic (50s).

Loved seeing that... did you guys notice it, too? Interested to hear what you all make of that.

At one point Samuels began to say that the test revealed other aspects of JA's personality too but that he couldn't discuss those results because the lawyers preferred not to get into them.

I'd be interested in opinions re the effect Travis' chaotic childhood might have had on his failure to send Jodi packing, give her numerous second chances, etc. I think the stories of her family/upbringing hit a chord with him, and he "forgave" things in Jodi he wouldn't in others, thinking, "If it weren't for my grandma, I'd be that messed up too."

Also, given his acceptable appearance and great personality, attracting nice women wasn't a problem. He dated a lot, but I've read nothing about serious prior relationships, even though such were highly encouraged in the LDS culture. Did he play the field so long by choice, or did his early life make him afraid to commit?

Forgive me please if this is OT, but "it takes two to tango" and I don't understand why Travis didn't see what we and everyone he knew saw in Jodi, or why he saw but continued anyway. "The sex" as an answer doesn't work for me.

One of TA's friends said that TA approached dating almost like a sport. He said that he dated a lot and liked going out with more than one woman at a time. It's difficult for me to believe that he had never experimented sexually prior to JA. It just doesn't jive with his persona imo.

Still, none of the sex stuff excuses the killing but it may explain how the situation evolved to the point JA felt the need to harm him.

For instance, I watched a show where a seemingly normal, good man had had a past relationship with a woman for about five years and they broke up. He went on to marry another woman and they had an infant and were happy together. The old gf, who once lived in that same house, began calling him to chat which got on his wife' nerves. When his wife picked up the phone once, she asked the other woman to quit calling her husband. Reasonable? Yes. Shortly thereafter, the wife and their baby were found murdered and left in an area where only a local would be prone to leave somebody. Of course the husband was a suspect but LE was able to trace the murder to the old gf. The cut phone line and entrance from the basement were clues that someone who was familiar with the layout of the house had entered. To me, this would qualify as a death penalty case as the victims were 100 percent uninvolved and motive is clear and had nothing to do with the victims' treatment of her. That's one demented woman to kill her ex bf's baby too.

When I listen to TA and JA's story, I'm conflicted as to what led up to JA taking the action she did.
I'm not for the death penalty in this case.

 

[deedee21]

Who.be.gone. They dated. They broke up. She moves to Arizona. In her mind she may have been thinking not so fast buddy.They continue to see each other. He has had enough. She goes back to Cali. She had a goal. It wasnt go to happen. She lost control so she killed him.

 

[BritsKate]

recently on another thread, i said that because of his chaotic childhood, Travis might even have been attracted to "crazy". i got jumped on as if i was bad mouthing Travis. i was only saying his childhood could be an explanation for why he kept on with crazy jodi. many forum members interpreted it as me suggesting his judgement/character was somehow flawed.
that was not what i was saying at all. but the threads move so fast it's often hard to have a true discussion/understanding on any point, especially when everyone is reacting emotionally.

:truce:

I could've been one of those posters, shelley, and if so I apologize. It depends on how its stated but I know I have taken offense to some posters implying Travis was somehow complicit in his death or somehow minimizing his victim status. (I'm not suggesting that was your intent, of course.) This case is very personal to me and I have an admitted emotional bias.

'He didn't deserve to die but...he should have treated her better; should have gotten a restraining order; should have x,y,z.' He honestly acted in a manner very similar to many abuse and psychopath victims alike. He thought he could control the situation, dismissed her propensity for violence, minimized her controlling behaviors, and believed her manipulation. I can't stress enough how much worse it is for male victims to come forward, if they ever do. They're often ridiculed, disbelieved and cajoled by even those closest to them. Especially, it seems, if the abuse turns physical.

I volunteer at a DV advocacy in my area - connecting abuse victims with much needed resources, charities, counseling, shelters or housing, etc. For probably every 75-100 female victims we see just one or two men - who have come in begrudgingly, truly at the end of his tether, broken and hopeless. And yet, I wonder how many more are out there who we never see because they're taught to take it, women aren't that violent, they've done something to deserve it, etc. It's infuriating and heartbreaking all at the same time.

 

[Donnareit]

The simple answer is no, she did not love him because sociopaths are incapable of love. Now, they will tell you they are, but what the go on to describe to you will not sound anything like love as non disordered people will understand it. The want to own that person. That want to control them. They want what they have and they don't want to have to work very hard for it. Jodi probably believed she loved Travis, but in a sick and unhealthy way, if anything.

Sociopath's seek out victims, and the most vulnerable are the naive and the innately kind. Travis was relatively romantically naive for a man his age and was kind and giving to a fault. I am not just saying that. His friends have told stories of his selflessness. He had money. A big nice house. He traveled a lot to amazing places. He was affluent and well liked. Jodi found her next target. If she could get him to love her, she could have what he has without ever having to work for it. And I agree with whoever said it's not as simple as just wanting their stuff (BritsKate). Jodi is a narcissist as well. She desires the love and admiration of everyone and here was a man who had that. Everyone loved Travis. So Jodi clinged to that, delusionally imagining that for herself. She wanted that too.

I do think that Travis cared for Jodi at one point and probably continued to care for her after they broke up. He broke up with her because one or two things or both happened: (1)she began to show her true self and (2)he realized they did not actually share the same values. In Christianity, they call it "equally yoked." Basically, being on the same wave length in their beliefs and morals. Jodi thought she could control him with sex, what this actually ended up doing is pushing him away. He enjoyed it and struggled with it, but realized in the end this was not the girl he would marry because she had already shown that the Mormon code was that important to her. He was looking for a different kind of girl. A bit hypocritical? Maybe. But that's religion for you.

So he breaks up with her and what does she do? She moves to his city. The is escalation of stalking behavior. This is where I find it hard to relate to the "Travis controlled Jodi" people. SHE moved closer to HIM and proceeded to push and inject herself into his life where she wasn't invited. This was her attempt to control him! If she had never moved, Travis would never have had sex with her after the break up. Yet it was Travis controlling Jodi for sex? That is not computing. And after the move it was hard to get out of her web. Between his own moral struggle, and the temptation of Jodi being just around the corner, Travis was having a hard time shake this part of his life.

I think people are finding it hard to believe that a man could possible be controlled by a sociopathic woman. Like I said, they are master manipulators. They find your weakness and prey on it relentlessly. I understand there is a level of responsibility in some of Travis' actions, but I can't imagine that if it had been the other way around people would be so quick to blame the victim and sympathize with the perpetrator. It's this social stigma that keeps so many women off death row when the probably deserve it. I hope that the statement that is made in this trial, when/if the guilty verdict is handed down, is that both men and women can be controlled and deceived by another, and that no one deserves it, no matter what their faults may be.

:goodpost:

I would just like to add:

Travis was the victim of intimate partner abuse in that Jodi is a classic stalker, and like so many of these types of victims it is hard for us to understand why they just don't dump their abusers. I would not say that Travis was trying to control Jodi; I would say he was trying to "manage" her. Abused partners learn early on that open confrontation with their abuser is extremely dangerous. We as advocates must give the victim full credit for knowing what is the best thing they can do to be safe.

Leaving is a process. This is true for battered women or men. It takes many tries, sometimes, before a successful separation can be accomplished. Travis might have thought he could "let her down gently" by continuing to see her, but only for the sex. Surely she would get tired of that kind of relationship and move on - it almost seemed to be working when she went back to California. No more lending her his car, having her invade his house, needing money and food from him, etc. Just a slow pull back to phone sex and maybe a visit and she would find someone else to latch onto.

But he underestimated the extent of her desperate illusion that they would still be together. This time it was no more buying into Jodi's fantastical belief that the two of them were going to keep on visiting those 1,000 places to see. So, when she shows up yet once again, maybe he thought it would be best to go along with the sex one more time hoping she would be satisfied with that and go away. After all she couldn't afford to keep showing up all the time, right? Little did he suspect that this was an entirely different scenario she had planned.

Stalkers are living in a dream world where the object of their desire is only resisting them because "something" else is preventing "the other" from being with them. For Jodi it was the LDS moral code. As long as she could get Travis to forsake that they could be together. When the sex wasn't going to be there anymore, her narcissist answer was to keep him to herself by killing him.

 

[jaokguy]

It's impossible for me to accept your viewpoint as we've heard TA say outloud that he's being turned on by the thought of a twelve year old having her first orgasim.
As much as some would like to, we can't blame JA for everything that came out of his mouth.

Just noting too that I find it hard to believe that twelve year old girls are experiencing orgasims. When girls are sexual at twelve, it's usually because they've been lead down a path for somebody else's pleasure.

The thought of the sentence being uttered about twelve year old girls having orgasims as a turn on is beyond disturbing to me. It's on tape so nobody made it up - TA said it. If it's her fault, he was a chameleon too.

Just to note, You couldn't be more wrong ...girls who are 12 years old experience orgasms (and you should really learn how to spell the word before you use it too), big time, no matter how "hard you find it to believe", so you can pop your immense bubble of denial with a pin right about now. I've got more news for ya, 8 year old girls have orgasms. My wife, when she was a 3rd grade teacher, would tell me stories about girls DURING CLASS rubbing up and down on their chair until they reached orgasm. Complete with the chair going up and down until that moment of orgasm. Kids, both boys and girls, know what orgasm is WAYYYYYYYYYY before 12....and not because someone has "taught them about it". I remember it at that age as well. If you didn't experiment at those ages that's YOUR problem, not TA's. And the fact that someone "uttering about a 12 year old's orgasm" disturbs you, but stabbing someone 29 times, slitting their throat from ear to ear, and shooting them in the head DOESN'T disturb you, is the ONLY thing that's disturbing...believe me. You need to grow up asap before making such ignorant comments. Don't comment on something you know NOTHING about.

 

[Whisperer]

I think, at some level, Travis knew she was lethal.

I also think the sex calls (prompted by her) and the sex play were done to appease her crazy. By doing so, she was happy and would not bring her evil upon him. She was the one who craved sex and was nervous and gad only knows what else, if she didn't get it. It appears he learned how to handle her at times. I recall a phone or text where he told her how beautiful she was in the middle of another topic. That is how you handle a narcissist. She ate it up. The call ended on a good note and it kept Travis alive for another day.

He was too naive to handle this level of crazy. The one thing he should have learned was to lock his doors.... I doubt men think like that though.

Dollars to donuts her family knows how crazy she is. They were glad to get her out of the house at 17 yrs. To tell you the truth, I don't blame them. Eventually, we will find out that she was a troubled child and always had been...ala casey anthony. Those two are exactly alike. If ca had taken the stand, it would have been a similar performance.

Travis did not know how to get rid of her...as he never had any experience with anything that she brought to his table. He did know she was evil as of the last few weeks before he died.

 

[MeeBee]

Just to note, You couldn't be more wrong ...girls who are 12 years old experience orgasms (and you should really learn how to spell the word before you use it too), big time, no matter how "hard you find it to believe", so you can pop your immense bubble of denial with a pin right about now. I've got more news for ya, 8 year old girls have orgasms. My wife, when she was a 3rd grade teacher, would tell me stories about girls DURING CLASS rubbing up and down on their chair until they reached orgasm. Complete with the chair going up and down until that moment of orgasm. Kids, both boys and girls, know what orgasm is WAYYYYYYYYYY before 12....and not because someone has "taught them about it". I remember it at that age as well. If you didn't experiment at those ages that's YOUR problem, not TA's. And the fact that someone "uttering about a 12 year old's orgasm" disturbs you, but stabbing someone 29 times, slitting their throat from ear to ear, and shooting them in the head DOESN'T disturb you, is the ONLY thing that's disturbing...believe me. You need to grow up asap before making such ignorant comments. Don't comment on something you know NOTHING about.

I think the people overreacting to this are just being ridiculous anyway. There is nothing remotely disturbing about what Travis said. The operative part in his words is not the age, but the "first orgasm" part. I totally get it. I have had phone sex before and have had guys tell me almost the exact same thing. How young and innocent I sounded, etc. etc. The only thing the person can hear on the other end is moans, so of course that is what people are going to comment on in a conversation like that. Jodi was also intentionally make herself sound younger. She didn't seem to mind the comment much, from the sounds of it...

I think on the whole call Travis sounded like he was trying too hard, like he was just throwing extreme stuff out there to get a rise out of Jodi. A lot of sounded like he was just trying to impress her and turn her on. It didn't seem to be doing much for him. I think he went a little lower in age than he probably intended, but the sentiment was there. The only reason people are making a big deal out of this comment is because the defense has blown it way out of proportion. Use your own brains. His comment=pedophile? GMADB.

 

[Whisperer]

It's impossible for me to accept your viewpoint as we've heard TA say outloud that he's being turned on by the thought of a twelve year old having her first orgasim.
As much as some would like to, we can't blame JA for everything that came out of his mouth.

Just noting too that I find it hard to believe that twelve year old girls are experiencing orgasims. When girls are sexual at twelve, it's usually because they've been lead down a path for somebody else's pleasure.

The thought of the sentence being uttered about twelve year old girls having orgasims as a turn on is beyond disturbing to me. It's on tape so nobody made it up - TA said it. If it's her fault, he was a chameleon too.

Oh, FGS, Jodie did sound like a child. That was an honest comment made by him as he was listening to somebody talking and making noises in a baby voice. He met no harm. That comment has been taken way out of context. She did sound like a pre teen...and she was faking orgasm. The fact that he put into words "Twelve Year old" and "First" is driving certain people nutz. That is what is upsetting peeps? It was not said or implied he liked to have sex with children.

She was the one who played up the young girl carp. Speaking baby talk and wearing braids and encouraging him to act out her fantasy. Remember, he didn't know he was being set up. She was in total control of the phone call. Poor Travis!

 

[allison78ca]

Just to note, You couldn't be more wrong ...girls who are 12 years old experience orgasms (and you should really learn how to spell the word before you use it too), big time, no matter how "hard you find it to believe", so you can pop your immense bubble of denial with a pin right about now. I've got more news for ya, 8 year old girls have orgasms. My wife, when she was a 3rd grade teacher, would tell me stories about girls DURING CLASS rubbing up and down on their chair until they reached orgasm. Complete with the chair going up and down until that moment of orgasm. Kids, both boys and girls, know what orgasm is WAYYYYYYYYYY before 12....and not because someone has "taught them about it". I remember it at that age as well. If you didn't experiment at those ages that's YOUR problem, not TA's. And the fact that someone "uttering about a 12 year old's orgasm" disturbs you, but stabbing someone 29 times, slitting their throat from ear to ear, and shooting them in the head DOESN'T disturb you, is the ONLY thing that's disturbing...believe me. You need to grow up asap before making such ignorant comments. Don't comment on something you know NOTHING about.

Your wife is either crazy or you are. Telling us about students climaxing in her class? What kind of a teacher was she. What you said in the rest of your comment might be true. But come on...


Just trying to make this world a safer place for our children.

 

[SMK]

I don't believe psychopaths are anywhere capable anything resembling remorse but I guess you'd also have to first have believe Gus Searcy...whom I admittedly don't. I think he revealed his true intentions when he basically admitted on the stand he approached the defense only because the prosecutor didn't call him back. He told Chris Hughes he had information that could either help or hurt her.

I think he wanted in on this case and he wanted the national stage. He does have a book to promote, after all.

Here's another blog with a different POV:

http://mycrimetime.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/gus-searcy-says-arias-called-him-after.html

Personally too, I find the testimony of Darryl (ex-boyfriend); Dr. Samuels; and Gus Searcy all suspect as each displayed obvious sympathy towards the defendant making me believe strong the manipulation is. (In my not so good Yoda impression.)

The mistake that author makes, SMK, in my opinion is confusing psychopathy with humanity and all that it entails. Not every murderer is also psychopathic but for those who are it is about as close to evil as one gets - insomuch as there is no conscience, no empathy, and no remorse for their victims - at all.

And if you study Jodi's interrogations, interviews, and testimony you will see, over and over again, how the subject always turns back to how murdering him affects her.

JMO

ETA: Personal tidbit to illustrate the lack of remorse component in psychopathic criminals. As I've stated many times on the main thread, my ex is currently in prison for drugging and raping his 14 year old niece after I'd filed for divorce.

He first claimed it never happened. Then stated it did but she'd been coming on to him. Then claimed he'd never have done it had I not left. Then stated not only had he never done it but he'd also never admitted he had. Lastly, he plead guilty to having done it...but only to receive a reduced sentence.

He tore his entire family apart. His mother believes him but his sister, and mother of the victim, would like nothing more than to tear him apart with bare hands. Grandma and victim's relationship is exponentially damaged. And ex still proclaims his innocence, blaming everyone else, despite overwhelmingly damning evidence to the contrary. He goes on and on to anyone who will listen how his life is forever ruined as a result of her 'claims'. Uh huh. :furious:

Well explained. Yes, I was doubtful of this author but thought it was interesting what he was trying to "spin" on it. OMG, yes, I can see your ex was a male Jodi........

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Very well stated. It had occurred to me that Travis was perhaps the self she wanted to be (truly charming, really liked by all, really able to accomplish things) but could not access. This might also account for the rage: She had created (in her mind) an extension of herself: Now he was acting independent and going his own way, leaving her in a void.

This is also my impression of what motivated Jodi. Travis was and had everything she ever wanted, but could not obtain by herself. She thought if she had him, married him, he could give her the life she desperately wanted. Upper social status, his upper middle class lifestyle, his exciting life and travels, his financial status. Everything she couldn't get by herself. He was her ticket to the life she desperately wanted. But when her dreams were smashed, there was hell to pay. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

I once had an "obsessive love" for a man. I over-idealized him and thought about him almost every waking moment. It almost consumed my life. I never thought I could feel that strong emotion for anyone. I had the good fortune to finally realize the truth...I was not what HE wanted. But it is almost scary to remember how deep and powerful those emotions were.

My own life experience no doubt colors my perceptions of the JA case.

 

[BritsKate]

I'm hesitant to enter the 12 year old debate other than to pose a challenge. We're all very human, human beings that sometimes say or do things we come to regret. Those things lie in wait for a psychopath. They'll purposely mischaracterize or misconstrue something we've said or done just in order to make themselves look better or more believable to others. When they can't do that they'll invent evidence around what's available. So who here, if someone were truly out to get them, hasn't said or done something that couldn't be twisted if the intent is truly nefarious?

For me I confided how unhappy I was in my marriage to a guy I met online months after we'd become friends via social media. Over several months, this man was very kindm considerate, and seemed to really understand me. One day my ex came home with every instant message and email over months printed and carefully redacted to make it appear as though I hated my ex, couldn't wait to leave him, and would sleep with every guy between me and Mexico. He threatened to show those to everyone, told me I made him want to kill himself, and made me feel so ashamed for saying anything negative about him at all that I stayed for several more months, desperately trying to prove what a good, faithful wife I was.

The friend I'd confided in? Well that friend was primarily the woman my ex was cheating on ME with, and sometimes even my ex himself. It was all an elaborate, manipulative ploy to paint me badly. So when I hear the tape of Travis, I'm left also wondering how Jodi had the foresight to tape that conversation on the phone she'd lose but miraculously recover before trial? It's uncanny, unbelievable really, she has 'evidence' to her claim - much like the letters deemed inadmissible. What happened before that call that Jodi might herself have initiated just hoping to entrap Travis? Food for thought and JMO.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[SMK]

This is also my impression of what motivated Jodi. Travis was and had everything she ever wanted, but could not obtain by herself. She thought if she had him, married him, he could give her the life she desperately wanted. Upper social status, his upper middle class lifestyle, his exciting life and travels, his financial status. Everything she couldn't get by herself. He was her ticket to the life she desperately wanted. But when her dreams were smashed, there was hell to pay. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

I once had an "obsessive love" for a man. I over-idealized him and thought about him almost every waking moment. It almost consumed my life. I never thought I could feel that strong emotion for anyone. I had the good fortune to finally realize the truth...I was not what HE wanted. But it is almost scary to remember how deep and powerful those emotions were.

My own life experience no doubt colors my perceptions of the JA case.

Yes, and very poignant and illuminating it is. Thank you for your powerful insights based on experience.

I believe the whole continuum and range of human emotions is possible for all of us - as you say, you finally had the good fortune to understand that your love and idealization was not returned, and for you, like many others, that was the end. Unfortunately is cases like JA where there is real pathology, things take a quite different and far more deadly turn.

 

[shelley921]

:truce:

I could've been one of those posters, shelley, and if so I apologize. It depends on how its stated but I know I have taken offense to some posters implying Travis was somehow complicit in his death or somehow minimizing his victim status. (I'm not suggesting that was your intent, of course.) This case is very personal to me and I have an admitted emotional bias.

'He didn't deserve to die but...he should have treated her better; should have gotten a restraining order; should have x,y,z.' He honestly acted in a manner very similar to many abuse and psychopath victims alike. He thought he could control the situation, dismissed her propensity for violence, minimized her controlling behaviors, and believed her manipulation. I can't stress enough how much worse it is for male victims to come forward, if they ever do. They're often ridiculed, disbelieved and cajoled by even those closest to them. Especially, it seems, if the abuse turns physical.

I volunteer at a DV advocacy in my area - connecting abuse victims with much needed resources, charities, counseling, shelters or housing, etc. For probably every 75-100 female victims we see just one or two men - who have come in begrudgingly, truly at the end of his tether, broken and hopeless. And yet, I wonder how many more are out there who we never see because they're taught to take it, women aren't that violent, they've done something to deserve it, etc. It's infuriating and heartbreaking all at the same time.

Kate- I don't remember who was slamming me but I don't think you were one of them! So no apology needed. I am on the same page as you - love your posts and look forward to all you write.

 

[shelley921]

Oh, FGS, Jodie did sound like a child. That was an honest comment made by him as he was listening to somebody talking and making noises in a baby voice. He met no harm. That comment has been taken way out of context. She did sound like a pre teen...and she was faking orgasm. The fact that he put into words "Twelve Year old" and "First" is driving certain people nutz. That is what is upsetting peeps? It was not said or implied he liked to have sex with children.

She was the one who played up the young girl carp. Speaking baby talk and wearing braids and encouraging him to act out her fantasy. Remember, he didn't know he was being set up. She was in total control of the phone call. Poor Travis!

Indeed! Yes! On that phone sex call Travis sounded to me like he was a high school boy trying to be hip and cool. He was naive and I don't think for a minute the 12 year old girl line indicates he wanted sex with children.

 

[Donnareit]

Hummm? Well 12 year old girls can and do have orgasms (especially if they've been 'shown' by offenders or even other children). I tend to believe Travis just threw that comment out there because Jodi WAS sounding like a 12 year old girl (whether she meant to or not).

I've never actually heard phone sex before, but something about that tape seems off kilter to me all around. They BOTH seemed to be over dramatic and maybe were faking it for the excitement of the other. As for saying, "that's hot," or whatever was taken to mean Travis approved of 12 year old girls having orgasm, I heard it more like a rendition of Beevis and Butthead where young men are "supposed" to say stupid things whenever any slight innuendo is made.

Without saying Travis was without his faults, and having Mormon friends who truly have been brought up under the watchful eyes of parents AND church, I see much of the sexual banter here as though Travis is the little boy who just discovered his penis. Having discovered the joy of sex, it would not be something he could disclose to anyone without fear of bring down the wrath and disappointment of his community.

Jodi really had found the ultimate weapon of power to use against him. She certainly wouldn't want to use it because THAT WOULD mean the end of everything for her, but I'm sure the thought that she COULD tell made Travis very AFRAID. Something starts when she asks her friend about the Law of Chastity and what should she do. I think this was a warning to Travis to get rid of his new girlfriend or else. However, Jodi also learned that there was a way to redemption through repentance here, and it would mean getting rid of HER along with the sex. Their quarreling escalates after this until Jodi is sent packing back to California.

Now Jodi obviously sees Mimi as her greatest rival. Travis could start over fresh, so she sets up the phone sex call. Travis didn't know he was being RECORDED. The conversation was scheduled (at least I thought I heard something along that line at the start of the call) AND Jodi was trying to relive past exploits as if she wanted to prove something to someone else. When Travis discovered that she had this tape, it was the last straw for him and he let her know in that May text. The tape IS the great betrayal he is talking about, and he knows just what kind of sociopath he is dealing with now that everything is coming out into the open. He must have thought it would be safe to call her on this behavior since she was 1,000 + miles away.

 

[Donnareit]

I think the people overreacting to this are just being ridiculous anyway. There is nothing remotely disturbing about what Travis said. The operative part in his words is not the age, but the "first orgasm" part. I totally get it. I have had phone sex before and have had guys tell me almost the exact same thing. How young and innocent I sounded, etc. etc. The only thing the person can hear on the other end is moans, so of course that is what people are going to comment on in a conversation like that. Jodi was also intentionally make herself sound younger. She didn't seem to mind the comment much, from the sounds of it...

I think on the whole call Travis sounded like he was trying too hard, like he was just throwing extreme stuff out there to get a rise out of Jodi. A lot of sounded like he was just trying to impress her and turn her on. It didn't seem to be doing much for him. I think he went a little lower in age than he probably intended, but the sentiment was there. The only reason people are making a big deal out of this comment is because the defense has blown it way out of proportion. Use your own brains. His comment=pedophile? GMADB.

Yep. And the comments Travis makes about the guy from San Diego and his crowd being a bunch of drunks or whatever . . . well, in my experience with survivors over the past 30 years, the one thing that will get them to come flying out of shelter and recanting their every statement to the District Attorney is when the abuser flaunts a new love interest. Fear is the primary emotion in us all, but jealousy makes us utterly stupid to the point of doing things we don't even want to do just to get ourselves in check. IMHO

 

[SMK]

Hummm? Well 12 year old girls can and do have orgasms (especially if they've been 'shown' by offenders or even other children). I tend to believe Travis just threw that comment out there because Jodi WAS sounding like a 12 year old girl (whether she meant to or not).

I've never actually heard phone sex before, but something about that tape seems off kilter to me all around. They BOTH seemed to be over dramatic and maybe were faking it for the excitement of the other. As for saying, "that's hot," or whatever was taken to mean Travis approved of 12 year old girls having orgasm, I heard it more like a rendition of Beevis and Butthead where young men are "supposed" to say stupid things whenever any slight innuendo is made.

Without saying Travis was without his faults, and having Mormon friends who truly have been brought up under the watchful eyes of parents AND church, I see much of the sexual banter here as though Travis is the little boy who just discovered his penis. Having discovered the joy of sex, it would not be something he could disclose to anyone without fear of bring down the wrath and disappointment of his community.

Jodi really had found the ultimate weapon of power to use against him. She certainly wouldn't want to use it because THAT WOULD mean the end of everything for her, but I'm sure the thought that she COULD tell made Travis very AFRAID. Something starts when she asks her friend about the Law of Chastity and what should she do. I think this was a warning to Travis to get rid of his new girlfriend or else. However, Jodi also learned that there was a way to redemption through repentance here, and it would mean getting rid of HER along with the sex. Their quarreling escalates after this until Jodi is sent packing back to California.

Now Jodi obviously sees Mimi as her greatest rival. Travis could start over fresh, so she sets up the phone sex call. Travis didn't know he was being RECORDED. The conversation was scheduled (at least I thought I heard something along that line at the start of the call) AND Jodi was trying to relive past exploits as if she wanted to prove something to someone else. When Travis discovered that she had this tape, it was the last straw for him and he let her know in that May text. The tape IS the great betrayal he is talking about, and he knows just what kind of sociopath he is dealing with now that everything is coming out into the open. He must have thought it would be safe to call her on this behavior since she was 1,000 + miles away.

:clap::clap::clap: Excellent analysis. I agree with all.