Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[slanda]

http://forensis.org/PDF/published/2007_AntisocialPerso.pdf

This scholastic article is about treating those (or the inability to treat) with ASPD & or Psycopothy.

I think this analysis is useful because it discusses the criterion for ASPDs and there is a direct correlation between ASPD and the most negative traits of a Narcisist and one glaring difference.

There has been plenty discussion here about Narcissism and I believe everyone is correct when hypothesizing that JA is a Narcisist. However, she's only narcissistic because grandiosity, charm, glibness, pathological lying, cunning/manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt, shallow affect, callousness and lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, poor self behavioral controls, promiscuity, early behavioral problems, unrealistic goals, impulsiveness, and a co start need for stimulation/arousal are ALL and Every characteristic for Psycopothy and ASPD. Thus, She seems narcissistic but is truly Anti-Social.

She personally can be attributed to every criteria. That is pretty impressive and astonishingly scary.

I think she also fits the need for constant stimulation because if you watch her in the interrigation room, she rips labels off water bottles, constantly messes with every inanimate object in the room, and her bizarre behavior in general.

How could this type of diagnosis be missed? Especially if someone is blatantly acting this way?

Also, this article goes on to say that those who are able to form some sort of attachment, like narcissists, are more able to be treated in some way. Because severe psychopathy and ASPD's do not form attachments and that is the glaring reason treatment usually is not an option, nor does it even work. Basically, they have nothing to negotiate with. Usually everyone has some type of emotional currency but these people don't. Which is why her parents, even if they tried, probably could have done nothing for her. She might have charmed her way out of a 72 hour hold, or possibly hurt them. And there is no proven behavioral or pharmaceutical treatment for those with ASPD.**** (If you remember, or Read the article that Narcisists have plenty to negotiate with, they have emotional currency, the reason for their narcissism is completely different than the reason of narcissism displayed by the Anti-social personality.)****

I think this article is imperative to read because it answers many of the questions that have been posed here and helps us understand her type of crazy.

I do wonder though, did the defensive and or prosecution not want her to be diagnosed with ASPD for fear of prejudice by the jury/ or the prosecution didn't want her getting away with anything for reasons of insanity?

I am aware that there are two different definitions regarding sanity; and I believe even though she's probably AS, that the court would deem her sane because at the time of the murder, she knew and demonstrated the differences between right and wrong. Yet, many AS know between right and wrong, they just could care less.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thank you for sharing this very healthy and very constructive method of dealing with these issues. I was told once that our thought processes are like walking on a grassy lawn. If you walk on the grass once you just bend the grass and leave a faint trail. If you keep walking on the grass, pretty soon the trail becomes distinct and in some cases even set in stone.

I can't help but wonder what thought processes JA had as she convinced herself that killing TA was the only option she had available to her. She also obviously hadn't thought through the aftermath or consequences of her actions.

I read that recently JA refused to go into her cell, had been hoarding items and is causing some friction in the jail. I'm guessing that she may just now be realizing the box she's put herself in.

Interesting as well is there are some truly tough women in there, tough exteriors and interiors and JA scares me more than any of them.

bbm ~ Me too. As many of us have shared, we've been hurt in one way or another yet no one has said they responded to the hurt by trying to kill the person who hurt them. Now, three months into the trial, JA's mental health issues are coming to light but will not to be shared with the jurors, right? My thoughts have leaned towards JA snapping as a result of being rejected. But I keep in mind all the odd coincidences there were as she prepared for her trip to TA's too.

If JA is indeed bipolar (I acknowledge those who are teaching us that peeps with bipolar usually will harm themselves versus physically harming another person) with comorbidity, she may have gone into one of those prolonged manic states when she plotted and carried out her final deed against TA. She doesn't love him anymore, she hates him imo. That's why she's not sad about what she did to him.

I don't want to see JA get out of jail free, but the defense should have explained her mental health issues imo. Something is obviously terribly wrong with a person who carries out revenge to the point that JA did.

Her mom and dad reacted/responded in ways that seems off to me when talking to the detective. The mom appeared defensive and the dad sort of nonchalant. Also both were quick to throw JA under the bus. Have they always been that way or had they arrived at their wits' end by 2008? Afterall, JA was already twenty-seven years old when she killed Travis.

 

[LimoDriver]

If the parents had known better then they would have done better...Jodi is sneaky and knew how to put on the charm..I doubt that Jodi would have benefited from early intervention..in some cases I am afraid there really are bad seeds..I especially think so after hearing her parents interview ...Jodi is finally locked up...where she needs to be for everyone's safety! I have worked years working w abused and neglected kids and a few times I have seen kids very much like Jodi and the parents were at their wits end trying to get help for them....there is a point where there is a core personality that is independent of outside influence...Jodi is only for Jodi...there is something missing in her brain that hinders her from experiencing empathy..no pill or therapy can change that...so I believe it is an organic brain dysfunction and she should be locked up for life at the least! Just my opinion!

I agree to most everything you wrote. The only thing I can't ever get my mind around is this almost excuse-like saying of "they did the best they could". Similar to your "if they'd known better they would have done better". In the day in which we live there are an abundance of resources to help nearly anyone with nearly anything. JA is an exception. Her parents are not. It might be lazy parenting, cultural shifts in disciplining children, etc. But whatever the cause I believe they are going to be held accountable in the end for the way in which they raised or didn't raise JA. I believe as a father of 4 and foster father to 3 that we as parents all will. "What did you do with the lives that were entrusted to you?"

I feel I can speak to this as I have come from a family with a mother who has BPD. Abuse was rampant throughout my childhood. In all forms. There were many victims, including those who turned around and victimized. Coming from this background I was setup (some might say) for failure. But I have been able to reach out and accept help to work through all of that. I still maintain the scars and the residue of being raised by someone with BPD and indeed have myself been diagnosed with everything from Bipolar to MPD by various eh-hem professionals. The thing is I can chose to live under those labels or I can accept what happened to me, forgive those involved, and break the chains of addiction and abuse in my family. I have chosen that path and have a wonderfully supportive mate who understands me and can tolerate when the residue comes up in our relationship (most of the times ), awesome friends, a supportive church community, online forums, and other resources that I take advantage of.

 

[jojomonkey]

I just remembered hearing that Jodi was held back in kindergarten. I would be really curious to know why, she is not unintelligent, in fact I think she probably learns really quickly. I'm inclined to believe it was more behavior relateted, maybe she was one of those kids who was all over the place; couldn't sit still, was constantly bothering their neighbor or disrupting the class. I would love for more information to come to light about her childhood.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

For those not watching live....JS just cancelled court and dismissed the jury for the after b/c "the witness is :sick: and feels she cannot continue".

I've been trolling this forum for several days and finally have a minute to post. I want to say thanks to MeeBee and Ricochette(sp?) especially for their posts. I got an account simply to do just that. There are others who have shared as well, but those 2 stick out for me.

So "thank you".

Welcome. Alyce L. will return, right? Is she ill? I'm trying to make sense of this and what it means going forward.

Answer ~ AL was not feeling well at lunchtime so she asked to go home. She will be returning when she feels better. At first, I thought she may have stepped down for good. Would that even be possible?

 

[Emmi]

bbm

Her mom and dad reacted/responded in ways that seems off to me when talking to the detective. The mom appeared defensive and the dad sort of nonchalant. Also both were quick to throw JA under the bus. Have they always been that way or had they arrived at their wits' end by 2008? Afterall, JA was already twenty-seven years old when she killed Travis.

I really would like to see/hear more from the parents because, as usual, we're only getting sound bites and not context.

However, my first impressions are in agreement with yours, Woe.be.gone. The father, in particular, distances himself from Jodi, as if she were a person that used to live in his house, and whom he just happened to notice caused a lot of trouble for his wife lately. He speaks of Jodi as if she were alien to him. The mother is clearly upset, but she doesn't defend Jodi, either. This is their daughter!

Yeah: were they always like this with her? Because, if they were, this is very important information. I'm not easily convinced that some kids are just "bad seeds"--though, of course, children can be born with psychological tendencies/problems that are organic. I think that the the bad-seed idea is often used to deny or minimize the abuse that happens in families.

 

[LimoDriver]

Welcome. Alyce L. will return, right? Is she ill? I'm trying to make sense of this and what it means going forward.

Answer ~ AL was not feeling well at lunchtime so she asked to go home. She will be returning when she feels better. At first, I thought she may have stepped down for good. Would that even be possible?

I'm not a legal expert by any stretch but I think there would have to be a pretty compelling reason for a witness to be excused. She hasn't even been crossexamined yet. Which I can't wait for. JM is gonna open a can. This whole bit with AL is just pathetic and reaching by the DT. Although I will admit I have found many truths to what she is saying and no doubt she is knowledgable but what in the world does this have to do with anything? Slandering a dead man. Giving circumstancial testimony at best. She wasn't there. This is what JA told her. Just more waste of tax payers dollars.

 

[human]

there is a stigma with mental health. Hopefully, soon it will be addressed and accepted.

If one is sick, it is necessary to get the diagnosis to get the treatment. For instance, having diabetes is a label, but people can get treatment.

If mental health issues can be identified, then proper help can be given. We get better as a society to provide proper medical treatments and better parenting skills.

Narcissists do not like to be outed for who they are. Travis was going to out Jodi. For what? some kind of scams.

Does anyone know? I think that is what sealed his death warrant.

 

[jojomonkey]

I really would like to see/hear more from the parents because, as usual, we're only getting sound bites and not context.

However, my first impressions are in agreement with yours, Woe.be.gone. The father, in particular, distances himself from Jodi, as if she were a person that used to live in his house, and whom he just happened to notice caused a lot of trouble for his wife lately. He speaks of Jodi as if she were alien to him. The mother is clearly upset, but she doesn't defend Jodi, either. This is their daughter!

Yeah: were they always like this with her? Because, if they were, this is very important information. I'm not easily convinced that some kids are just "bad seeds"--though, of course, children can be born with psychological tendencies/problems that are organic. I think that the the bad-seed idea is often used to deny or minimize the abuse that happens in families.

I'm hoping we get lots more insight into her relationship with her parents. I agree their relationship and reactions seem "off".

I've seen with my own eyes, parents who have good intentions but do not know how to parent well. They provide for their kids basic needs, but the kids just kind of "exist" in the household. There isn't a lot of interest, talking or listening to their kids. They are just there. Not saying that is what happened here, but her parents seem a bit disconnected with her.

And sometimes it's just a matter of problems between the parents, and they are consumed with their own issues and pay no attention to what their kids are going through. Again, just speculating, it will be interesting to see more of their interviews.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm reading over on the media thread.
Travis was killed on June 4th but wasn't supposed to leave for Cancun until June 10th? Nobody missed him during the five days in between?

Often there seems to be weird circumstances in cases that go beyond the crime.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm not a legal expert by any stretch but I think there would have to be a pretty compelling reason for a witness to be excused. She hasn't even been crossexamined yet. Which I can't wait for. JM is gonna open a can. This whole bit with AL is just pathetic and reaching by the DT. Although I will admit I have found many truths to what she is saying and no doubt she is knowledgable but what in the world does this have to do with anything? Slandering a dead man. Giving circumstancial testimony at best. She wasn't there. This is what JA told her. Just more waste of tax payers dollars.

The defense is trying to show how a person can be pushed beyond their limits when another person continually treats her badly. JA already has admitted that she killed Travis. Her defense is taking a stab at trying to explain why she did it with the hope of garnering compassion from the jurors. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

there is a stigma with mental health. Hopefully, soon it will be addressed and accepted.

If one is sick, it is necessary to get the diagnosis to get the treatment. For instance, having diabetes is a label, but people can get treatment.

If mental health issues can be identified, then proper help can be given. We get better as a society to provide proper medical treatments and better parenting skills.

Narcissists do not like to be outed for who they are. Travis was going to out Jodi. For what? some kind of scams.

Does anyone know? I think that is what sealed his death warrant.

No, haven't read anything about TA holding something over JA's head. It seems to me they had turned on each other in different ways. The only theory I've read about is that JA might have been planning to talk to a bishop regarding her concerns about TA's alleged perverted sexuality.

 

[Cate49]

My understanding of the relationship with her parents is that they found marijuana in her room in grade 8. After that she would never allow them in her room and accused them of doing so when she was not home. If memory serves me Jodi left home at 17. After travis's death Saundra arias offered to stay with Jodi. Jodi seemed extremely upset so mother wanted to be with Jodi. Jodi refused and mother said it was because Jodi would feel she'd snoop through her stuff. Not sure if this was implied by Jodi to mother,or the mother thought this was the reason,she did not want her mother to visit. Jodi's mother new nothing of Travis. She was only shown photos of him an him and Jodi traveling. It was at this time Saundra Arias heard of Travis being a motivational speaking

 

[thelmadawg]

http://forensis.org/PDF/published/2007_AntisocialPerso.pdf

This scholastic article is about treating those (or the inability to treat) with ASPD & or Psycopothy.

I think this analysis is useful because it discusses the criterion for ASPDs and there is a direct correlation between ASPD and the most negative traits of a Narcisist and one glaring difference.

There has been plenty discussion here about Narcissism and I believe everyone is correct when hypothesizing that JA is a Narcisist. However, she's only narcissistic because grandiosity, charm, glibness, pathological lying, cunning/manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt, shallow affect, callousness and lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, poor self behavioral controls, promiscuity, early behavioral problems, unrealistic goals, impulsiveness, and a co start need for stimulation/arousal are ALL and Every characteristic for Psycopothy and ASPD. Thus, She seems narcissistic but is truly Anti-Social.

She personally can be attributed to every criteria. That is pretty impressive and astonishingly scary.

I think she also fits the need for constant stimulation because if you watch her in the interrigation room, she rips labels off water bottles, constantly messes with every inanimate object in the room, and her bizarre behavior in general.

How could this type of diagnosis be missed? Especially if someone is blatantly acting this way?

Also, this article goes on to say that those who are able to form some sort of attachment, like narcissists, are more able to be treated in some way. Because severe psychopathy and ASPD's do not form attachments and that is the glaring reason treatment usually is not an option, nor does it even work. Basically, they have nothing to negotiate with. Usually everyone has some type of emotional currency but these people don't. Which is why her parents, even if they tried, probably could have done nothing for her. She might have charmed her way out of a 72 hour hold, or possibly hurt them. And there is no proven behavioral or pharmaceutical treatment for those with ASPD.**** (If you remember, or Read the article that Narcisists have plenty to negotiate with, they have emotional currency, the reason for their narcissism is completely different than the reason of narcissism displayed by the Anti-social personality.)****

I think this article is imperative to read because it answers many of the questions that have been posed here and helps us understand her type of crazy.

I do wonder though, did the defensive and or prosecution not want her to be diagnosed with ASPD for fear of prejudice by the jury/ or the prosecution didn't want her getting away with anything for reasons of insanity?

I am aware that there are two different definitions regarding sanity; and I believe even though she's probably AS, that the court would deem her sane because at the time of the murder, she knew and demonstrated the differences between right and wrong. Yet, many AS know between right and wrong, they just could care less.

Thanks, and AMEN! I think the reason is that the self-defense, defense was their only hope to avoid the death penalty in view of the evidence. As for the prosecution, I think you are probably correct, "fear of prejudice by the jury."

 

[SMK]

I'm reading over on the media thread.
Travis was killed on June 4th but wasn't supposed to leave for Cancun until June 10th? Nobody missed him during the five days in between?

Often there seems to be weird circumstances in cases that go beyond the crime.

Travis' room mates were not his friends; they were just renters, and were used to his coming and going privately. They did not keep tabs on him.

Some thought he had already left for Cancun.

Others left texts and voice mails, and when these went unanswered, decided to go to his house on the 9th, when he was found.

 

[kayice]

Question. Is the DA the ones releasing the videos to the media, a little bit at time? The latest being of Jodi's parents talking about her raging, paranoia and friends calling-- even in the middle of the night, saying this girl needs help. Jodi growing dope in her room, while in the 8th grade!!
No wonder Alyce is sick now....truth always comes out.

 

[Cate49]

So many posts of people wondering why parents did not get help for their mentally ill daughter. It is here that I wish to tell you of my experience with life with a personality disorder or the mosaic of this with emotional disorders. My brother and I are both adopted from different birth parents. He is 16 months older than I. As a toddler he displayed personality disorder traits. My grandmother ( a nurse) wanted them to send him back to the children's aid society. My parents did not as they correctly viewed him as human not an animal that you can return. In kindergarden my brother broke hi s hand hitting an other boy at party. His violent outbreaks continued and grew in intensity and severity. He was bought in every type of counseling my parents could find. He was receded to psychiatrists and refused to attend sessions. All the while my parents and I lived in a was zone terrorized by a teenaged boy that was physically strong. He broke my dad's rips, punched and hit us, broke furniture punched wholes in the walls. My parents continued to get help for him everywhere. When I was 17 my parents were on holiday and he brutally beat a girl. The night before he had pinned me on the ground but I was able to de-escalate him and avoided a beating. He served 7 years in jail and blamed me as I was witness to the girls beating and testified. He was never allowed in our home again. His behavior continues to this day. My parents died prematurely

before my 40th birthday and I know that it had to do with life with my
brother. We all lived with knowledge that people thought my parents raised him wrong and never sought help. It has caused damage to me too. The point of my post is that there are family victims of those charged with crime. Make no assumptions about her parents by the small clips we have seen this today.
Sorry for long post.

 

[SMK]

So many posts of people wondering why parents did not get help for their mentally ill daughter. It is here that I wish to tell you of my experience with life with a personality disorder or the mosaic of this with emotional disorders. My brother and I are both adopted from different birth parents. He is 16 months older than I. As a toddler he displayed personality disorder traits. My grandmother ( a nurse) wanted them to send him back to the children's aid society. My parents did not as they correctly viewed him as human not an animal that you can return. In kindergarden my brother broke hi s hand hitting an other boy at party. His violent outbreaks continued and grew in intensity and severity. He was bought in every type of counseling my parents could find. He was receded to psychiatrists and refused to attend sessions. All the while my parents and I lived in a was zone terrorized by a teenaged boy that was physically strong. He broke my dad's rips, punched and hit us, broke furniture punched wholes in the walls. My parents continued to get help for him everywhere. When I was 17 my parents were on holiday and he brutally beat a girl. The night before he had pinned me on the ground but I was able to de-escalate him and avoided a beating. He served 7 years in jail and blamed me as I was witness to the girls beating and testified. He was never allowed in our home again. His behavior continues to this day. My parents died prematurely

before my 40th birthday and I know that it had to do with life with my
brother. We all lived with knowledge that people thought my parents raised him wrong and never sought help. It has caused damage to me too. The point of my post is that there are family victims of those charged with crime. Make no assumptions about her parents by the small clips we have seen this today.
Sorry for long post.

No need to apologize for your important and poignant post. You have the insider's view and it is so important that you have given this input.

I think it is obvious that "getting help" is not always the end of the story and the parents and siblings are still left to deal with the rages of the ill family member. In your brother's case I wonder if he ever received the proper medication which might have at least subdued his behavior. Sometimes even the doctors cannot seem to pin down what is needed.

Am so sorry that you had to experience such severe family trauma. Perhaps Jodi's parents and siblings ran into blind alleys as well, and then just hoped for the best. :heartluv::heartluv: thank you again for your profound posting.

 

[SMK]

No, haven't read anything about TA holding something over JA's head. It seems to me they had turned on each other in different ways. The only theory I've read about is that JA might have been planning to talk to a bishop regarding her concerns about TA's alleged perverted sexuality.

( :what::laugh::laugh: I had to laugh at this because you were able to subtlely nudge the underbelly of the truth in. ) In any case, it was Travis who went to the bishop about Jodi, which was why he was on probation. God knows what else they were holding over eachother's heads.

 

[kayice]

The talking heads (JVM) said Juan grinned when Alyce said Jodi wasn't jealous with anything or anybody pertaining to Travis. Suddenly, Alyce is ill.