Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

[Padua]

HIPAA doesn't prevent a doctor from protecting others from a patient that poses a threat. A doctor has a duty to warn those at risk and a duty to commit that patient. This is the one time HIPAA can basically be bypassed. Here is the case that allowed this to happen after a mental illness patient murdered someone he told his doctor he was going to. Back then doctors weren't allowed to break their doctor-patient relationship. Now they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California

My thought on this. JH isn't a uneducated man seeking treatment. He was educated about the process. He knew if he had made threats his doctor would immediately alert the proper authorities. He didn't want his plans messed up. So, IMO he didn't hint at harming himself or others.

 

[danzn16]

About the prostitute: I posted in in theater, because this thread was closed.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/joker_hooker_hairdo_AzlVI3vR1wETqaiQG9AojN#ixzz226yHZl7L

The Dr. has me LOOKING with 5 open eyes
that is my 2 my glasses and my 3rd eye. LOL
I am watching....

Personally I think this girl is full of crap. Why would a nursing student name herself, age, location of where she lives, that's she's a prostitute, how much she charged for sex, and such detail. Girl wants her 15 min of fame.

 

[songline]

Here's a vid of Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown, discussing JH:
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-cycle/48290416#48263145

Don't take this as an endorsement as I am not sure what's going on with JH. I'm not going to try to be the judge of 'that'.

What she forgot to tell people is MI can be very very functional, methodical,
Also calculated, and abscess about one thing for days on end....

They are not Psychotic....
So I do not agree with her synopsis at all.

If you can simplify MI into a 4 minute talk you don’t know much - MY STRONG OPINION.
So many books have been written and – they MI patients while they may have some similar symptoms are all different.

 

[songline]

What I am not understanding is:

Why would the University employ Dr. Fenton if they knew she was a potential liability?

Maybe just very bad screening ?

 

[jjenny]

My thought on this. JH isn't a uneducated man seeking treatment. He was educated about the process. He knew if he had made threats his doctor would immediately alert the proper authorities. He didn't want his plans messed up. So, IMO he didn't hint at harming himself or others.

Add to that, we don't even know what he was seeking treatment for.
Some people go to the doctor so they can get meds. I am not saying that's what he did, but considering he reportedly took vicodin prior to shooting, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

 

[songline]

I am not an MD, but if all she had is one reprimand for prescribing meds to employees and relatives, it's probably not that unusual and doesn't indicate she is a potential liability. A lot of MDs have lawsuits, etc against them. That doesn't mean they are not employable.

I do not know what made me think like this? Do you work for the School?
I know nothing about this school, but I cant constantly stand up for them because I really do not know.
As for the Doctor there...I have many questions - time will shake it out.

 

[songline]

HIPAA doesn't prevent a doctor from protecting others from a patient that poses a threat. A doctor has a duty to warn those at risk and a duty to commit that patient. This is the one time HIPAA can basically be bypassed. Here is the case that allowed this to happen after a mental illness patient murdered someone he told his doctor he was going to. Back then doctors weren't allowed to break their doctor-patient relationship. Now they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California

TRUE if she noticed signs of danger.

What if she was medicated herself and not totaly there?
What if he did not exhibit danger just signs of being off?

Lots of What IF's....

 

[Padua]

Here's a vid of Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown, discussing JH:
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-cycle/48290416#48263145

Don't take this as an endorsement as I am not sure what's going on with JH. I'm not going to try to be the judge of 'that'.

Thanks! I enjoyed the video. She does a good job of describing the difference between psychotic and psychopathic. Also, I'm glad she brought up the point of a child with an attachment disorder may become psychopathic. Children with reactive attachment disorder are some of the scariest kids. They learn to use people and manipulate from a young age. However, there are intensive behavior modification sessions that can curb these behaviors.

 

[newsleuther]

I think I posted this in the wrong thread, so I'll repost it here - it relates to his mental state and possible usage of drugs

But, I have to say, as someone who dabbled in some things when I was younger, after watching his 1st appearance in court, it reminded me of 2 things:

#1) When I used to take hallucinogens, there were times I was sitting alone in a room, and hallucinated that I was at a party and was having regular conversations with people while smoking a cigarette. This would happen with closed eyes. When I opened my eyes, my head would pop up, eyes go wide with kind of a start because I'd realize I where I actually was, alone in a room, with no cigarette.

#2) It also reminded me of opiate withdrawal. But he would not be sleeping like a baby if he was going through that, not at all.

The thing that stood out the most to me was the snapping of the head, the almost "snap back to reality" face. It gave me a weird feeling of deja vu until I could place it.

 

[songline]

My thought on this. JH isn't a uneducated man seeking treatment. He was educated about the process. He knew if he had made threats his doctor would immediately alert the proper authorities. He didn't want his plans messed up. So, IMO he didn't hint at harming himself or others.

But when they are in a "state", and assume for example, if they are cutters, or have any other self pain inflicting habits...
they just do it. That can be covered up with cloths, some things can’t be covered up.....does not mean they are not dangerous.
It only means they have not yet spiraled far enough, and have to be checked more often - signs of spiraling should be seen by a trained eye....and medicated if they exhibit any strange behavior.
But you cannot force them to take their meds, and sometimes they do self medicate.

 

[Padua]

But when they are in a "state", and assume for example, if they are cutters, or have any other self pain inflicting habits...
they just do it. That can be covered up with cloths, some things can’t be covered up.....does not mean they are not dangerous.
It only means they have not yet spiraled far enough, and have to be checked more often - signs of spiraling should be seen by a trained eye....and medicated if they exhibit any strange behavior.
But you cannot force them to take their meds, and sometimes they do self medicate.

I wasn't speaking of generalities. I was specifically talking about Holmes.

 

[songline]

I wasn't speaking of generalities. I was specifically talking about Holmes.

I know. but if they are in a state, or in a spiral... their covering up does not work anymore,
I think many MI are very intelligent.

I think you think he is acting... You have a right to your opinion.

I am just saying they can hide, cover, plan, and then they fall,
sometimes they do want to be caught because the pain of MI is great.

 

[songline]

I continusly wonder how JH can go to a school of this type
and fall between the craks.

I would like to know what was his reason, motive, his trigger.

I already know the world is safe, of him, he is never coming out.

 

[danzn16]

TRUE if she noticed signs of danger.

What if she was medicated herself and not totaly there?
What if he did not exhibit danger just signs of being off?

Lots of What IF's....

If she was medicated and wasn't supposed to be... then she will lose her license. She may or may not be found liable.
If he did not exhibit danger just off... then she is not liable at all and she would have no idea what he was planing or that he was a danger. There are many people with MI that are not dangers to themselves or to others, but most if not all are consider "off" or not normal as compared to someone without a MI.

 

[shadowraiths]

Thanks! I enjoyed the video. She does a good job of describing the difference between psychotic and psychopathic. Also, I'm glad she brought up the point of a child with an attachment disorder may become psychopathic. Children with reactive attachment disorder are some of the scariest kids. They learn to use people and manipulate from a young age. However, there are intensive behavior modification sessions that can curb these behaviors.

She does a good job of making things up.

As for children with reactive attachment disorder being predisposed to psychopathy? Oh, and the bit about "intensive behavior modification sessions"?

Yeah, okay. Sure.

Here is but one example of what occurs when people don't know wth they're talking about and haven't a clue wrt, and/or do not care about, scientific validity and reliability. ( link )

Btw, and fwiw, I consulted on the aforementioned, horrifyingly tragic case. One thing for certain, what is in the linked wiki is nothing compared to what that little girl actually went through before she was murdered as a result of said "intensive behavior modification sessions."

 

[Padua]

She does a good job of making things up.

As for children with reactive attachment disorder being predisposed to psychopathy? Oh, and the bit about "intensive behavior modification sessions"?

Yeah, okay. Sure.

Here is but one example of what occurs when people don't know wth they're talking about and haven't a clue wrt, and/or do not care about, scientific validity and reliability. ( link )

Btw, and fwiw, I consulted on the aforementioned, horrifyingly tragic case. One thing for certain, what is in the linked wiki is nothing compared to what that little girl actually went through before she was murdered as a result of said "intensive behavior modification sessions."

From your link. That is not behavioral modification. The article didn't call it behavioral modification. Behavioral modification is decreasing undesirable behaviors with desirable behaviors. For example, when a child is exhibiting an undesirable behavior (tantrum) it is ignored but when a child is exhibiting a desirable behavior (staying on task, using manners) the child is rewarded (favorite toy, high five, point system). Behavioral modification is a family therapy. It also teaches the parent how to encourage positive behaviors from their child.

Your article did not say behavioral modification.

ETA: BF Skinner developed behavioral modification. If you want to look it up make sure you look up BF Skinner.

 

[shadowraiths]

From your link. That is not behavioral modification.

My apologies for confusing you.

The example I provided was to point out what happens when people who don't know wth they're talking about and haven't a clue wrt, and/or do not care about, scientific validity and reliability.

 

[songline]

If she was medicated and wasn't supposed to be... then she will lose her license. She may or may not be found liable.
If he did not exhibit danger just off... then she is not liable at all and she would have no idea what he was planing or that he was a danger. There are many people with MI that are not dangers to themselves or to others, but most if not all are consider "off" or not normal as compared to someone without a MI.

I know I have said it myself a few times.

BUT WHAT IF... we really do not know.

 

[21merc7]

Sort of O/T

If anyone runs across a good media link don't forget to post it in the media links thread up top. When this thing goes to trial next year or so a whole lot more people will be posting with us and trying to get caught up. It would be easier to point them to links then trying to find old links. I'm trying to remember to do the same. Thanks to the ones that are remembering.

Here is the thread:

Media Links **LIST ONLY** NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[21merc7]

How Forensic Psychiatry Informs Trials

This is a brief interview and explanation. Scroll down to transcript or you can click the listen link:

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/30/157604066/how-forensic-psychiatry-informs-trials