Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[asiabrasil]

My heart goes out to Beth and I completely admire her moxy!!!

It's not her fault the prison officials hauled him "practically by force" or whatever to see her.

She wasn't arrestned, seems she didn't try to sneak around and she got her daughter's case back in the spotlight and squarely around Joran's neck hopefully.

I think she wanted Peru to remember that Joran has been a murder suspect before. Joran's story seems to be getting so convoluted - perhaps the media needed to be brought back to reporting that Joran was likely a murderer who should not get out of prison, ever.

Edited to add: "practically by force" is an attorney exageration - either it was or was not by force. Don't let the spin fool you.

LOL. No kidding. He's in prison. Every move he makes is "practically by force".

 

[hollyblue]

(AP) – 1 hour ago
NEW YORK — The mother of an Alabama teen who vanished in Aruba in 2005 entered a Peruvian jail and talked directly with the Dutchman suspected in her daughter's disappearance, her attorney said Friday.
In an interview on NBC's "Today," lawyer John Q. Kelly said Natalee Holloway's mother Beth Twitty entered the jail "without violating any laws or breaking any regulations" and spoke with Joran van der Sloot.
The jailed man is charged with killing a woman in Peru on May 30, five years to the day after Holloway, then 18, disappeared while on a high school graduation trip to the Caribbean island.
NBC said Twitty entered the jail with a Dutch TV news crew.
Kelly said Twitty didn't expect to get answers about Natalee's disappearance, but wanted Van der Sloot to know "she hasn't gone away, she's determined to get answers and you know, she wants to bring Natalee home."
Kelly did not immediately respond to a phone message left at his office by The Associated Press.
In Peru, a spokesman for the national penal authority said Twitty's name did not appear in the visitor registry of Castro Castro prison, where the 22-year-old Van der Sloot is being held.
"That woman did not enter the prison," the spokesman, Bruno Guzman, told the AP. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h_xXTw-O20_AU-R5XjipJcd7z5YQD9I9OAMO0

BBM This doesn't make sense and is a conflicting statement. So which is it?

If it's true that a camera crew was allowed in the prison with Beth, then they allowed it and did Joran agree or was he "dragged" as previously stated? He belongs behind bars, but what gives them the right to demand and drag him to forceable meet with Beth? Something is not "correct" with this scenario and Joran must carry his lawyer's calling card around in his pocket since this didn't reportedly take place in his cell. If I were his attorney, I'd be really pizzed...and it doesn't sound like Altez is.
This is appearing more like a publicity stunt for all involved to me.
In a previous press release, it stated the prison director recognized de Vries, investigated was not happy. What kind of BS are we walking through here?

ETA: Just heard on InSessions, per Jean C, that the reason for BHT going there was not to confront Joran, but that she went there to be part of a documentary they are filming, and the answeres to why she was there will be told.................????? Is this a promo?

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

They are talking about this subject on HLN, right now.

 

[otto]

I'm having trouble with the logic of it all also. Did she and de Vries REALLY think Joran was going to set there and agree to talk to her...let alone give her a truthful statement of where NH's body is? Is it possible this was just a publicity stunt for whatever they putting together to release to public/media and just a poke-in-the-eye- to Joran that he is now behind bars and probably will be for the rest of his life? Her knowing all along the talk/confrontation/meeting wouldn't last 2 minutes? Is de Vries just pulling on her emotional heart strings for his own benefit?

I truly feel for Beth and can't imagine what emotional hellfire she must be going through, but she keeps putting herself in the same place...time after time with the results remaining the same every time and her expectations dowsed. Seems like a non-ending roller coaster.

I think at this point, if it ever comes out of Joran's mouth where her body truly is....and that's saying he truly knows, or what happen to Natalee to cause her death, it will be on JVS's own time. I don't think she or anyone else at this point can force it. It's going to be on his time clock....if ever. Sad, but he's holding the cards, albeit, in prison. Unfortunately, she needs to come to some peace....for herself. This is what these types do to a fully sane person after they become enmeshed in their lives. She will never be same, but she needs to find some kind of justification knowing he will not be able to hurt another young girl nor be free. If she could just do him in, it may be a moment of self satisfaction, but she would then be the one behind bars. But she's letting this consume her...totally. Unfortunately, unfairly, people are taken away from us daily and Beth is not alone in her anguish. I'm just afraid she's on a runaway train and I don't want her life nor anyone else to be like that. I can't imagine NH wanting that for her mother either.

Please don't get me wrong...this is a horrible, horrific and an unexplainable tragedy that no one should have to go through. But look at who/what she is dealing with. The best thing she can do is to help insure he is behind bars for good and may he be ignored except for that fact. Who's actually winning if she gets destroyed in the process? He's taken two already...is he worth another? Why give him another sick pleasure.

Prayer for you Beth.

I too wish that Beth could find some peace in her life, but that's not going to happen by chasing Joran. I wonder if she's had grief counseling. That usually helps people put things in perspective and go forward with their lives in spite of their loss. I read her book and didn't see anything about grief counseling, although she did find some sort of solace in some of the spiritual meetings she attended on Aruba in the months after Natalee disappeared.

 

[georger]

[
ETA: Just heard on InSessions, per Jean C, that the reason for BHT going there was not to confront Joran, but that she went there to be part of a documentary they are filming, and the answeres to why she was there will be told.................????? Is this a promo?[/quote]

Where does Natalie's father fit into all of this -what is he thinking, or does he matter? Natalie had two parents.

 

[hollyblue]

Again with all due respect, aren't you going a little overboard here? We don't even have the entire story.

She doesn't need to plead anything, he did put her in emotional distress.

On one hand we have the murderer of Stephany who probably also murdered Natalee or at the very least is responsible for Natalee's disappearance and we have a desperate mother who snuck a camera into a prison.

I understand that she may have made a dumb move here but the outrage over it seems a little skewed to me.

Yes, he's caused her emotional distress from the very beginning, so why keep chasing him? He's behind bars, finally, and for a very long time. What does she want? An answer to where Natalee is..dead or alive....she's not going to force it out of him. This is getting to look psychotic on her part. I've never believed in the keeping your enemies closer theory, R Cummings did and he now in prison. Playing with a devil only has you playing his game and can only lead to mishap.

Joran is behind prison walls, but how in the world does she know he may now have ties to bring her serious harm. Just sayin'

 

[mysterygirl]

She wants answers.

Who are we to question her motivation for talking to him?

 

[otto]

I couldn't disagree more.

MO, it is a huge stretch to take this and say it proves Joran is telling the truth about being harassed for five years. I don't think he proved anything of the sort.

Anyone that has been closely following this case for the past five years knows that his lies began the very first day. His stories changed long before any of what you are calling harassment by Beth. His confession to Patrick didn't come out of any harassment since he didn't even know he was being recorded.

Yes, when Beth and entourage arrived at the van der Sloot house the day after Natalee disappeared, Joran lied. Since that day, Beth has been after Joran, and Joran has been cashing in on it. They keep coming to each other, Beth knowing that she'll hear another lie, and Joran knowing that he'll get attention and money. It's a sad situation, one that Beth can put a stop to ... although at the same time, she's not ready to accept that she will not hear the answer she wants. After 5 years in this cycle, she needs to find some peace, and she'll never find that by repeatedly going to Joran.

 

[hollyblue]

Hello WS

They are talking about this subject on HLN, right now.

Thank you. OT: I love Rumi, his words just leave you breathless and are true poetry.

 

[annalia]

Yes, he's caused her emotional distress from the very beginning, so why keep chasing him? He's behind bars, finally, and for a very long time. What does she want? An answer to where Natalee is..dead or alive....she's not going to force it out of him. This is getting to look psychotic on her part. I've never believed in the keeping your enemies closer theory, R Cummings did and he now in prison. Playing with a devil only has you playing his game and can only lead to mishap.

Joran is behind prison walls, but how in the world does she know he may now have ties to bring her serious harm. Just sayin'

Easy to judge her actions as an outside observer about what she should or shouldn't do isn't it? She wants her daughter, children aren't disposable that we just forget about after a certain amount of time.

If this is part of a documentary I'll wait to see it before passing judgement. If anything I might blame Peter for using her desperation.

 

[annalia]

Yes, when Beth and entourage arrived at the van der Sloot house the day after Natalee disappeared, Joran lied. Since that day, Beth has been after Joran, and Joran has been cashing in on it. They keep coming to each other, Beth knowing that she'll hear another lie, and Joran knowing that he'll get attention and money. It's a sad situation, one that Beth can put a stop to ... although at the same time, she's not ready to accept that she will not hear the answer she wants. After 5 years in this cycle, she needs to find some peace, and she'll never find that by repeatedly going to Joran.

Wow

The police were with Beth that night. That is still no excuse for Joran's lying. He continued to lie to police. And his lies began even before that when he told his friend Freddy the lie before Beth even arrived on Aruba. He made up the lies on the way home that night, he had no idea what was waiting for him there but he knew he needed to make up lies about Natalee.

Joran is the only one that can put a stop to it. Natalee's loved ones deserve answers and nothing less. The answer she wants is where her child is.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, you find ways to put all the blame on Beth, I will continue to put it on the one that holds the answers, Joran.

 

[mysterygirl]

Easy to judge her actions as an outside observer about what she should or shouldn't do isn't it? She wants her daughter, children aren't disposable that we just forget about after a certain amount of time.

If this is part of a documentary I'll wait to see it before passing judgement. If anything I might blame Peter for using her desperation.

I can't even imagine knowing that a man murdered my child, got away with it and her body was never discovered.

That pain has to be so severe- you could die from a broken heart. If the worst she does is hound him for answers.........forever.........I wouldn't blame her for it regardless of whether I felt it was rational or not.

 

[lonetraveler]

She broke the law, for one thing. She thought that she could get away with sneaking a video camera into a Peruvian prison, once again demonstrating that she has no respect for law enforcement. Peruvian jail guards had to deal with the fact that an American thought she could get away with sneaking a camera into prison. That's a bit ... not only rude, but seriously underestimating their job performance.

I don't believe she's willing to risk going to prison, I think she's confident that she can get out of any violations related to Joran by pleading emotional distress. The "intimidation" factor matters because she attempted to confront Joran in prison and secretly video the confrontation. It's more than obvious she would have released the footage through the media, given Peter de Vries' participation. That's going a little too far by all standards.

Some mothers never feel that something can be a little too much when it comes to seeking justice for her murdered daughter. I would do the same.

 

[Patty G]

More then likely Natalie's father doesn't have a clue what his former wife was doing. IIRC, Natalie's father was NOT aware of the sting/extortion plot either.

 

[otto]

Wow

The police were with Beth that night. That is still no excuse for Joran's lying. He continued to lie to police. And his lies began even before that when he told his friend Freddy the lie before Beth even arrived on Aruba. He made up the lies on the way home that night, he had no idea what was waiting for him there but he knew he needed to make up lies about Natalee.

Joran is the only one that can put a stop to it. Natalee's loved ones deserve answers and nothing less. The answer she wants is where her child is.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, you find ways to put all the blame on Beth, I will continue to put it on the one that holds the answers, Joran.

I'm not looking to blame anyone, I'm looking at this as two people doing some sort of unhealthy dance. Beth wants information that Joran may or may not have, and the obsession has consumed her life. Joran has nothing to lose, and everything to gain financially, so he has no reason to stop the dance. Beth, the mother of a missing woman, is not unique. There are many missing people, and many unresolved crimes. The suffering is endless. At some point, survivors have to find a way to find peace in their lives. Continuously confronting a suspect and continuously getting the same result does not seem healthy.

 

[hollyblue]

Easy to judge her actions as an outside observer about what she should or shouldn't do isn't it? She wants her daughter, children aren't disposable that we just forget about after a certain amount of time.

If this is part of a documentary I'll wait to see it before passing judgement. If anything I might blame Peter for using her desperation.

Sometimes it helps a person who is enmeshed psychologically with an outside observation. Unless you've been in a simular situation and have dealt with such a person as Joran, and the volitility of it, it's hard to comprehend just how much this can affect and destroy a person. He's not rational. And she's seeking rational answers. What is this documentary going to do, or prove? That Joran is guilty of murder. We all think that already. Will it give her the answers she is seeking? What is the point? Really.
Think about it, if Peter is using her desparation, then she is allowing it within the realm of her thinking, and someone needs to bring it to her attention, no?

No one is disposable and the loss of a child is never forgettable. but a person has to move forward with their own life also in a positive way. Haunting Joran is not going to bring Natalee back nor bring the answers she's seeking. How long and how many times has she done this? Either she's not thinking rationally or there is another agenda. What's the other agenda and will it bring the answers she says she is seeking? Seems like a vicious cycle to me. I'd like to know your thoughts on what your think her agenda is at this point?

 

[hollyblue]

Wow

The police were with Beth that night. That is still no excuse for Joran's lying. He continued to lie to police. And his lies began even before that when he told his friend Freddy the lie before Beth even arrived on Aruba. He made up the lies on the way home that night, he had no idea what was waiting for him there but he knew he needed to make up lies about Natalee.

Joran is the only one that can put a stop to it. Natalee's loved ones deserve answers and nothing less. The answer she wants is where her child is.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, you find ways to put all the blame on Beth, I will continue to put it on the one that holds the answers, Joran.

I don't think Otto is putting the blame on Beth at all. What Otto is saying is Beth is beating a sick, dead horse and expecting it get up and go where she wants it to. I want Beth to have the answers she's seeking, but I just don't think it's going to happen.

 

[annalia]

Sometimes it helps a person who is enmeshed psychologically with an outside observation. Unless you've been in a simular situation and have dealt with such a person as Joran, and the volitility of it, it's hard to comprehend just how much this can affect and destroy a person. He's not rational. And she's seeking rational answers. What is this documentary going to do, or prove? That Joran is guilty of murder. We all think that already. Will it give her the answers she is seeking? What is the point? Really.
Think about it, if Peter is using her desparation, then she is allowing it within the realm of her thinking, and someone needs to bring it to her attention, no?

No one is disposable and the loss of a child is never forgettable. but a person has to move forward with their own life also in a positive way. Haunting Joran is not going to bring Natalee back nor bring the answers she's seeking. How long and how many times has she done this? Either she's not thinking rationally or there is another agenda. What's the other agenda and will it bring the answers she says she is seeking? Seems like a vicious cycle to me. I'd like to know your thoughts on what your think her agenda is at this point?

I don't think Beth has an **agenda** other than what she's been saying for five years.

Unless you've been in such a situation and had your child disappear no one can say what she should and shouldn't do.

Does anyone dispute that Joran holds the answers to what happened to Natalee?

 

[LinasK]

I don't think Otto is putting the blame on Beth at all. What Otto is saying is Beth is beating a sick, dead horse and expecting it get up and go where she wants it to. I want Beth to have the answers she's seeking, but I just don't think it's going to happen.

That may be, but noone has the right to tell Beth to stop.:twocents:

 

[faw720]

Sometimes it helps a person who is enmeshed psychologically with an outside observation. Unless you've been in a simular situation and have dealt with such a person as Joran, and the volitility of it, it's hard to comprehend just how much this can affect and destroy a person. He's not rational. And she's seeking rational answers. What is this documentary going to do, or prove? That Joran is guilty of murder. We all think that already. Will it give her the answers she is seeking? What is the point? Really.
Think about it, if Peter is using her desparation, then she is allowing it within the realm of her thinking, and someone needs to bring it to her attention, no?

No one is disposable and the loss of a child is never forgettable. but a person has to move forward with their own life also in a positive way. Haunting Joran is not going to bring Natalee back nor bring the answers she's seeking. How long and how many times has she done this? Either she's not thinking rationally or there is another agenda. What's the other agenda and will it bring the answers she says she is seeking? Seems like a vicious cycle to me. I'd like to know your thoughts on what your think her agenda is at this point?

My previous post was not to be critical or blame Beth. I just fear that she is doing herself more harm than good. She has to know that Joran is nothing but pure EVIL, EVIL, EVIL! He will never tell her or anyone else what happened to Natalee unless someone can persuade the CIA to torture the truth out of him. Joran enjoys the misery he causes Beth & I fear she's only feeding his enjoyment at the pain he has caused.