Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[sherryk]

I agree the report of him laughing is just what it is to him, a good laugh for him. He knows that the body is not possible to find. I strongly suspect his father disposed of it for him in a manner that will never be found.

Joran will take it to his grave and if he is released into general population it may be possible that he reaches his grave before all of us think. I do not think for one moment that Stephany's father will allow him after trial to be kept protected. After the trial and guilty it is a free for all on him.

The laugh, I expected this to not be Natalee

 

[otto]

MY :twocents:

That was last monday....

The Netherlands Forensic Institute has been examining the bone since last Monday, comparing the teeth to Holloway’s dental records, dental X-rays and teeth impressions and extracting DNA from the bone, according to Fox News Channel.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/intern...in_aruba_GJ7s91eAYuBdYQpvDw0pEM#ixzz168EDrnQN

Like I said, there have been conflicting reports. According to Dave, he was preparing the dental records on Thursday.

 

[georger]

Wasn't it reported that the dental records were received Friday evening? That allowed for Monday to make the comparison and complete the paperwork, and Tuesday to release the results.

Why do you think this was a game and charade?

That is how a frustrated world is going to see it given everything
else that has happened.

At the root of this Joran and the Kalpoes took Aruba and
the Dutch government hostage, while terrorising everyone else!
And the Arubans and the Dutch have yet to figure out how to get
out of it, at the expense of the Holloways, the Aruban image sullied,
and everyone else in doubt and angry . Now there is Stephany.

The Trojan War started over less . . . !

 

[suzihawk]

According to the statement from the NFI, it is not possible to determine whether a jaw bone is male or female simply by looking at it. As for a "courtesy call", I suspect the NFI had to make an official determination based on records and factual documents, so a "courtesy call" would not be a credible method for completing a forensic analysis on a bone - which was what they were required to do.

The prosecutor (Blanken) said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman.

If they knew this was a wisdom tooth and Natalee's were removed, they could have stated that it was not likely to be her pending official detemination via records and testing - rather than building the hype and gathering the press with baited breath. It was all so unnecessary and incredibly cruel. IMO

 

[marikesh]

I agree the report of him laughing is just what it is to him, a good laugh for him. He knows that the body is not possible to find. I strongly suspect his father disposed of it for him in a manner that will never be found.

Joran will take it to his grave and if he is released into general population it may be possible that he reaches his grave before all of us think. I do not think for one moment that Stephany's father will allow him after trial to be kept protected. After the trial and guilty it is a free for all on him.

The laugh, I expected this to not be Natalee

He laughed because HE KNEW Natalee wouldn't be returning; he and his helper made sure of that.

All the pomp and ceremony from the Prosecutors office for such a let down to the family is disgusting (for lack of a better word).
At this moment I wouldn't give one care if those huge waves took Aruba. I do hope travel bureaus are paying attention to how they treat families of missing there.

 

[annalia]

That is how a frustrated world is going to see it given everything
else that has happened.

At the root of this Joran and the Kalpoes took Aruba and
the Dutch government hostage, while terrorising everyone else!
And the Arubans and the Dutch have yet to figure out how to get
out of it, at the expense of the Holloways, the Aruban image sullied,
and everyone else in doubt and angry . Now there is Stephany.

The Trojan War started over less . . . !

My bolding

So true, that is exactly whose feet this all lays at and yet there are those who have tried to blame the victims such as Natalee's family, especially Beth.

 

[otto]

The prosecutor (Blanken) said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman.

If they knew this was a wisdom tooth and Natalee's were removed, they could have stated that it was not likely to be her pending official detemination via records and testing - rather than building the hype and gathering the press with baited breath. It was all so unnecessary and incredibly cruel. IMO

If the NFI had known that the public would be satisfied with a casual comparison based on a courtesy call, maybe they would have released that information earlier, but that type of analysis would most likely not be consistent with the quality of forensic analysis that is normally carried out, or acceptable, by any lab anywhere in the world.

 

[annalia]

If the NFI had known that the public would be satisfied with a casual comparison based on a courtesy call, maybe they would have released that information earlier, but that type of analysis would most likely not be consistent with the quality of forensic analysis that is normally carried out, or acceptable, by any lab anywhere in the world.

Comparing dental records is not a casual comparison, it is how many remains are positively identified such as Morgan Harrington and Chandra Levy.

The wisdom tooth is exactly what made them exclude Natalee.

 

[Bobbisangel]

OMG * 2. I hadn't heard about a 2nd jawbone (what are the odds of THAT? unless both met their demise together).

Poor Natalie's mother!

I think this whole thing about a jawbone found should have been kept quiet until they knew if it belonged to Natalie or not. That family has been through enough and they really didn't need that. Even if the family tried not to get their hopes up you know that they did. That was wrong.

 

[Scamperoo]

If the NFI had known that the public would be satisfied with a casual comparison based on a courtesy call, maybe they would have released that information earlier, but that type of analysis would most likely not be consistent with the quality of forensic analysis that is normally carried out, or acceptable, by any lab anywhere in the world.

Dental comparison is a tested and just about foolproof way of determining identity. It is pretty basic dental forensics when a jaw is missing wisdom teeth and the partial jaw found has one, it couldn't belong to Natalee. This must have been apparent right away. No further testing would have been required unless Aruba is concerned about human remains washing up on it's beaches that is...:waitasec:

 

[Bobbisangel]

Makes me sick to know that anyone can laugh about murder like that. Shows their true colors, for sure! :sick:

Casey and Joran are both creeps who put no value on a human life. Hopefully she will get the death penalty and someone will take him out in that prison. I'll bet they value their own lives but to bad! I can just see Casey's face if she gets the death penalty. She won't want to die but it was alright for her beautiful little girl. Killers never want to die for their crimes. Joran probably thinks he will be freed and right now he no doubt thinks he is the king of the prison...cause the other killers like him or act like they do anyway. Worthless pieces of garbage...both Casey and Joran.

 

[otto]

Comparing dental records is not a casual comparison, it is how many remains are positively identified such as Morgan Harrington and Chandra Levy.

The wisdom tooth is exactly what made them exclude Natalee.

I'm not suggesting that comparison with dental records is a casual comparison. I'm suggesting that a courtesy phone call asking someone if a missing person had wisdom teeth is a casual comparison.

My understanding is that DNA analysis was started earlier last week. On Friday evening the dental records were received. This is consistent with statements made by Dave Holloway giving Thursday as the day that he was in the process of preparing the dental records. Assuming that NFI employees don't work Friday night and weekends, then Monday would be the first opportunity to compare the bone to the dental records. Assuming that proper protocols must be observed, and paperwork must be completed, that would mean that Tuesday morning would be the earliest time that the results could be released.

When the dental records were compared to the bone, it was concluded that the bone did not belong to Natalee because of the existence of a wisdom tooth. Therefore, Natalee was excluded based on comparison to dental records, and the DNA comparison has been halted.

 

[otto]

Dental comparison is a tested and just about foolproof way of determining identity. It is pretty basic dental forensics when a jaw is missing wisdom teeth and the partial jaw found has one, it couldn't belong to Natalee. This must have been apparent right away. No further testing would have been required unless Aruba is concerned about human remains washing up on it's beaches that is...:waitasec:

Exactly, which is why the NFI did not make an announcement until after they received the dental records. It was not sufficient for an analysis to be based on a casual phone call.

 

[annalia]

I'm not suggesting that comparison with dental records is a casual comparison. I'm suggesting that a courtesy phone call asking someone if a missing person had wisdom teeth is a casual comparison.

My understanding is that DNA analysis was started earlier last week. On Friday evening the dental records were received. This is consistent with statements made by Dave Holloway giving Thursday as the day that he was in the process of preparing the dental records. Assuming that NFI employees don't work Friday night and weekends, then Monday would be the first opportunity to compare the bone to the dental records. Assuming that proper protocols must be observed, and paperwork must be completed, that would mean that Tuesday morning would be the earliest time that the results could be released.

When the dental records were compared to the bone, it was concluded that the bone did not belong to Natalee because of the existence of a wisdom tooth. Therefore, Natalee was excluded based on comparison to dental records, and the DNA comparison has been halted.

The FBI sent Natalee's records electronically earlier that week. They had the records, they would have received them the same day they were sent. You're making assumptions that they didn't receive any records until Friday night based based on an article.

There is no excuse for them not to make any preliminary contact with Natalee's parents. Seeing that the only tooth on the jawbone was a wisdom tooth and asking them if Natalee's wisdom teeth had been removed would be a preliminary step instead of making them wait to hear the results when everyone else did.

I didn't read that it was suggested that they make it their final determination or made it known to the public just that Natalee's family should have been apprised of what was going on instead of the torture of having to wait hoping it was her.

Dental records are like fingerprints, it doesn't take long to compare.

 

[georger]

If the NFI had known that the public would be satisfied with a casual comparison based on a courtesy call, maybe they would have released that information earlier, but that type of analysis would most likely not be consistent with the quality of forensic analysis that is normally carried out, or acceptable, by any lab anywhere in the world.

Once it was known Natalie had no wisdom teeth and the tooth
in question was a wisdom tooth, no dna workup was necessary.
The only reason for doing a dna workup would be to docment the
tooth as a general matter, for a future match with some unknown
person. But as far as determining relevance to Natalie, a dna workup
was not necessary. Moreover the Arubans and the FBI could have
settled this in a matter of hours because the FBI had Natalie's dental
records. It sounds to me like the FBI was left out of the loop?

I believe the Arubans are mandated to turn to their own governmental
authority first - the Dutch. That may account for why the Arubans
'appear' to be stubborn or isolating themselves, when in reality from
the Aruban perspective they are only following their own mandated
chain of responsibility. Aruba is soverign and has no responsibility to
the United States. (Aruba is not St Croix, for example). But as a practical
matter, one would think once the tooth was identified the Arubans (or
some Dutch authority) would share that information quickly - that is where
I criticise the Dutch.

I wonder for example if Joran or the Kalpoes have ever had their dna
taken, or if the Arubans or Dutch required that of them? Its a valid
question ...

The NFI is going to do what it is asked to do. Others call the shots ... the
NFI may give advice but at the end of the day the NFI does what it is asked
to do...

 

[otto]

The FBI sent Natalee's records electronically earlier that week. They had the records, they would have received them the same day they were sent. You're making assumptions that they didn't receive any records until Friday night based based on an article.

There is no excuse for them not to make any preliminary contact with Natalee's parents. Seeing that the only tooth on the jawbone was a wisdom tooth and asking them if Natalee's wisdom teeth had been removed would be a preliminary step instead of making them wait to hear the results when everyone else did.

I didn't read that it was suggested that they make it their final determination or made it known to the public just that Natalee's family should have been apprised of what was going on instead of the torture of having to wait hoping it was her.

Dental records are like fingerprints, it doesn't take long to compare.

Since the NFI has stated they received the records Friday evening (ref: press release from Aruba on CNN this morning), and Dave said that he was preparing the dental records on Thursday (msn link provided in earlier post), I would ask for a link quoting the NFI stating that they received the dental records much earlier in the week

 

[Scamperoo]

Exactly, which is why the NFI did not make an announcement until after they received the dental records. It was not sufficient for an analysis to be based on a casual phone call.

I don't think a Phone call from the NFI could be considered casual, I think as those offices are open 24-7 it must have been apparent days ago the jaw bone was not Natalee's. They may have provided that information to Aruba before the paperwork arrived, which I believe is why they called off the presser, they already knew it wasn't her.

Of course now there is a whole new set of issues for Aruba now that there is more than one person that has to be accounted for.

 

[otto]

Once it was known Natalie had no wisdom teeth and the tooth
in question was a wisdom tooth, no dna workup was necessary.
The only reason for doing a dna workup would be to docment the
tooth as a general matter, for a future match with some unknown
person. But as far as determining relevance to Natalie, a dna workup
was not necessary. Moreover the Arubans and the FBI could have
settled this in a matter of hours because the FBI had Natalie's dental
records. It sounds to me like the FBI was left out of the loop?

I believe the Arubans are mandated to turn to their own governmental
authority first - the Dutch. That may account for why the Arubans
'appear' to be stubborn or isolating themselves, when in reality from
the Aruban perspective they are only following their own mandated
chain of responsibility. Aruba is soverign and has no responsibility to
the United States. (Aruba is not St Croix, for example). But as a practical
matter, one would think once the tooth was identified the Arubans (or
some Dutch authority) would share that information quickly - that is where
I criticise the Dutch.

I wonder for example if Joran or the Kalpoes have ever had their dna
taken, or if the Arubans or Dutch required that of them? Its a valid
question ...

Let's look at how something like this might be handled in Virginia. When Morgan Harrington's remains were found, dental records were probably requested. The remains may or may not have had wisdom teeth, and the dental records may or may not have had wisdom teeth. I suspect that even in the US, forensic analysts would refuse to provide an official report without looking at the dental records. I also doubt that forensic analysts would issue an opinion prior to reviewing factual documents. I see this as a process that would take time, and require following strict protocols, in all forensic labs throughout the world. If labs were to release opinions without examining documents, the credibility would quickly come into question.

 

[annalia]

Since the NFI has stated they received the records Friday evening (ref: press release from Aruba on CNN this morning), and Dave said that he was preparing the dental records on Thursday (msn link provided in earlier post), I would ask for a link quoting the NFI stating that they received the dental records much earlier in the week

here is the press release, it doesn't say anything about not receiving any records until Friday evening.



Press Release: Bone material not of Natalee Holloway
November 23rd, 2010

At the request of the Aruban Public Prosecutor’s Office the Netherlands Forensic Institute has conducted forensic anthropological and DNA investigations on bone material, a piece of jawbone with a tooth. These investigations were executed simultaneously. Detailed examination by the NFI excludes the possibility that the bone material found in Aruba is that of Natalee Holloway.

Exclusion after comparing dental records

It was, first, necessary to establish that the bone material was in fact human material. This is the case. Thus the forensic anthropological investigation was expanded to include an investigation by forensic odontologists. Using the dental records of Natalee Holloway, such as the location of wisdom teeth and fillings, a comparison was made with the jaw bone recovered on Aruba. Based on these comparisons it could be excluded that the investigated bone material and molar came from Natalee Holloway.

DNA testing

Along with the forensic anthropological and odontological research, the NFI initiated a forensic DNA investigation. However, only a very small amount of DNA material was present and that was also of low quality. The bone appeared to have been exposed to various (weather) influences and proved to be porous. DNA researchers at the NFI therefore have applied extensive and highly sophisticated techniques to the DNA present in the bone to be examined.

On the basis of the comparison of the dental records the possibility that the bone material came from Natalee Holloway was excluded, therefore further DNA testing has been stopped. There is still a possibility that the molar from the jawbone could be used for further efforts to generate a DNA profile. However this follow-up study of said molar would inhibit future research into identifying the person from whom the bone originates.

Given that, based on dental records, it can be ruled out that the bone fragment came from Natalee Holloway, the Office of the Public Prosecutor in Aruba has decided not yet to carry out further research on the material. The prosecution will decide what further action will be taken to identify the bone material.

Natalee Holloway Investigation

The Office of the Public Prosecutor in Aruba has been involved in an investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway since her dissapearance. The case retains the constant attention from law enforcement on the island.

 

[annalia]

Let's look at how something like this might be handled in Virginia. When Morgan Harrington's remains were found, dental records were probably requested. The remains may or may not have had wisdom teeth, and the dental records may or may not have had wisdom teeth. I suspect that even in the US, forensic analysts would refuse to provide an official report without looking at the dental records. I also doubt that forensic analysts would issue an opinion prior to reviewing factual documents. I see this as a process that would take time, and require following strict protocols, in all forensic labs throughout the world. If labs were to release opinions without examining documents, the credibility would quickly come into question.

It took one or two days after her parents brought her dental records for it to be announced that Morgan's remains were positively identified through her dental records.