ARUBA - Robyn Gardner, 35, Maryland woman missing in Aruba, 2 Aug 2011 - # 3

[CanManEh]

Was it right after those pictures were taken of them leaving the restaraunt that she goes missing . cause im pretty sure i heard that her cell phone and her purse /bag was all at the hotel still yet you clearly see her holding a bad which anyone you would think would have those items in that bag . Imean you allways take your cell and what if she wanted to buy something so i would think her wallet was also in that big bag so how did it all get back to the hotel ?
__________________

 

[Micheline]

If she is dead, I think she probably is in the ocean...but it seems he would have had to take her out in a boat to be sure she would not wash back up on the shore...and there are no signs he did that, that we know of...if you try to throw someone off a cliff, they are not likely to be swept all the way out to the deep sea...more likely land straight down below you, I would think...?

Bolded by me.

Why would he want to make sure of that, it the goal is to cash in 1,5 million, would the insurance company not want any proof his travel companion died an accidental death? Without that proof what is there to cash in for GG?

If GG planned this whole thing, 1,5 million insurance for a 35 year old woman who was not his girlfriend, for a five day trip, that in itself would raise some eyebrows when he would want to come cash in at the insurance office, and then there is no proof she is even death and if she would be if it truly were an accident?

If this was his plan, and he drowned her, then why not swim her back to shore, call 911 say he managed to get a hold of her at some point, did everything to safe her, snorkel still on his head etc etc?

 

[Micheline]

If any entity will be interested in proving his guilt, it will be AMEX. They have 1.5 million dollars riding on this. That is encouraging. The smoking gun is the forged signature. MOO.

HS I have seen you have went over all the paperwork etc of AMEX.

Can you tell me if AMEX (for example if GG is the beneficiary and released next week) will pay out the insurance money to him if Robyn's body is never found and there being no proof whatsoever an accident occured to her?

Would not be the first thing AMEX requires is a proof of accidental death?
(and this being in their policy for anyone to read?)

If so, what would be the use for GG to hide her for example on land?

 

[gajonka]

Timing.

Keeping an up-beat mindset - on Dec 24 Laci P was reported missing - on April 13 - the body came ashore.

Now, there are multiple differences between the water type, this we know.

It could be some time...

 

[cluciano63]

Bolded by me.

Why would he want to make sure of that, it the goal is to cash in 1,5 million, would the insurance company not want any proof his travel companion died an accidental death? Without that proof what is there to cash in for GG?

If GG planned this whole thing, 1,5 million insurance for a 35 year old woman who was not his girlfriend, for a five day trip, that in itself would raise some eyebrows when he would want to come cash in at the insurance office, and then there is no proof she is even death and if she would be if it truly were an accident?

If this was his plan, and he drowned her, then why not swim her back to shore, call 911 say he managed to get a hold of her at some point, did everything to safe her, snorkel still on his head etc etc?

That's what I said in a later post...it would have been smarter to tow her back to short and say he tried to save her...most people know that there is about a 7-yr timeframe to have someone declared legally dead...

 

[HatesSociopaths]

HS I have seen you have went over all the paperwork etc of AMEX.

Can you tell me if AMEX (for example if GG is the beneficiary and released next week) will pay out the insurance money to him if Robyn's body is never found and there being no proof whatsoever an accident occured to her?

Would not be the first thing AMEX requires is a proof of accidental death?
(and this being in their policy for anyone to read?)

If so, what would be the use for GG to hide her for example on land?

Here is the applicable page of the policy. Policy can be viewed at:
https://secure.cmax.americanexpress...ument/AETI_Sample_Annual_Base_Certificate.pdf

The answer to your question appears to be that he would have to wait a year if her remains were not found.

 

[AngelFish]

The MM photos of RG have made their way into an article along with the name of the Hollywood Psychic RF has been communicating with.

http:///viewArticle.action?articleId=281474980067314

This is the only article that I can find about it, so I'm curious how the Psychic ended up in the article.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Some details I have been thinking about:

1. He brought his swimming trunks along with him in the car, and per reports an additional toupee.

He would have likely brought a towel with him as well.

2. He is seen leaving the restaurant with a roll of paper towels.

3. They arrive at the restaurant at 3 p.m.

He already had plans to go into the water before she sent the message to RF about loving him, etc. The plan to go into the water (or at least to pretend he had been in the water) ties in with the plan to murder, so the message does not appear related to the motivation to kill that day.

4. There is no bikini under that dress. She also had make-up on, hair extensions etc.

She does not appear interested in going in the water based on these points and the stories from her friends. Yet he brought his swimming trunks. Have they found her bikini in her belongings? And where is the dress?

5. There are patterns that emerge from his past:
a. Financial scams, fraud, forgery of documents, theft, law suits, harassment, threats, impersonations, online predator, sexual deviancy, fantasies, role playing, stalking, domination, choking, biting, videos, photos, voyeurism, anger, rage, no conscience, no empathy, no remorse, pompousness, manipulation, demanding control, distrust. (Other than that he is a great guy.)

b. The two worlds collide of financial scams and sex deviancy in Aruba, leading to a semi-botched plan.

6. To properly carry out the scam, she was to have been drowned at sea and the body brought back in. This way, no delay is incurred for lack of a body in the insurance claim.

7. Based on her profile, I believe she ruined his plan because she wasn't into the snorkeling idea. No thanks, you go ahead. This made him angry.

8. The suspect loses control of his actions when he is angry. I think he ended up driving away from the beach, and assaulting her. Her dress, if it could be located, will likely be ripped. There will be bite marks on the body and evidence of strangulation. That's my theory based on his patterns of behavior.

9. The problem became needing to dispose of the body and have it not be found, for it would show evidence of sexual assault and murder.

10. My theory is that he drove to another part of the coast, took the body as far out as he could, swam back, etc. He may have cut her foot (I find it an interesting twist in his story, perhaps a tinge of truth) to attract sharks.

MOO.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

One other thought on his detail of her cutting her toe and there being blood. Maybe he wants investigators to conclude the body was eaten by sharks so don't get suspicious when no body returns to shore.

It's possible the body is on land. Cadaver dogs are long overdue in this investigation.

 

[gajonka]

One other thought on his detail of her cutting her toe and there being blood. Maybe he wants investigators to conclude the body was eaten by sharks so don't get suspicious when no body returns to shore.

It's possible the body is on land. Cadaver dogs are long overdue in this investigation.

Thanks.

Interesting.

Was GG a smoker?

PT used to wipe down/off blood - lighter used to burn pt - to ensure its vanishing act.

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

With reference to the insurance policy-- Perhaps someone can clear this up

How would it be possible for "any" reputable insurance company to allow a 1.5 million dollar policy to be taken out by a non-family member allowing that person to collect for a "simple" accident while on vacation. That can't be right. doesn't the term" Accidental" in a travel Insurance policy refer to "the accidental death of a passenger " in the event the carrier which they are on (plane, train, ship)were to crash." Recovery of the the body clause pertaining to a catastrophic accident--like plane going down in an ocean?

Is this the "Travel Insurance" we are talking about with GG?

 

[Peliman]

One other thought on his detail of her cutting her toe and there being blood. Maybe he wants investigators to conclude the body was eaten by sharks so don't get suspicious when no body returns to shore.

It's possible the body is on land. Cadaver dogs are long overdue in this investigation.

Maybe so with the dogs but I don't think Aruba is overwhelmed with trained dogs. If I remember right in the Holloway case on one search a cadaver dog had to be hired and flown in to do a search. Not real sure about Aruba's access to trained dogs, trailing or cadaver. Maybe Oriah or Sarx have more info on that.

 

[kimmera]

With reference to the insurance policy-- Perhaps someone can clear this up

How would it be possible for "any" reputable insurance company to allow a 1.5 million dollar policy to be taken out by a non-family member allowing that person to collect for a "simple" accident while on vacation. That can't be right. doesn't the term" Accidental" in a travel Insurance policy refer to "the accidental death of a passenger " in the event the carrier which they are on (plane, train, ship)were to crash." Recovery of the the body clause pertaining to a catastrophic accident--like plane going down in an ocean?

Is this the "Travel Insurance" we are talking about with GG?

There are two different types. One just for the flight related stuff, and then another for accidents that happen after the destination is reached.

I can't see the insurance company paying under these sketchy circumstances. First off, if she is declared dead without a body then it would still have to be ruled an accident. And to qualify as an accident under the terms of this insurance, she would have had to have been sober at the time, if I am understanding it correctly.

JMO. :twocents:

 

[Magdalyn]

With reference to the insurance policy-- Perhaps someone can clear this up

How would it be possible for "any" reputable insurance company to allow a 1.5 million dollar policy to be taken out by a non-family member allowing that person to collect for a "simple" accident while on vacation. That can't be right. doesn't the term" Accidental" in a travel Insurance policy refer to "the accidental death of a passenger " in the event the carrier which they are on (plane, train, ship)were to crash." Recovery of the the body clause pertaining to a catastrophic accident--like plane going down in an ocean?

Is this the "Travel Insurance" we are talking about with GG?

Honestly, that's what I thought, but reading through the AMEX policy, it's slightly fuzzy. (See HateSociopaths post 628 points A and B.)

At the end of 'A' it says "or other unavoidable reason".... and I think going snorkling alone (non populated area) after imbibing on some unknown concoction in GG's car (and you can be sure the insurance company will avail themselve of THAT videotape/those photos)... would be considered AVOIDABLE.

On top of that, there's the Slayer Rule:
Slayer rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Slayer Rule says:

While convicting someone of the crime of murder requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the slayer rule applies to civil law, not criminal law, so it is only necessary to prove the wrongful killing by a preponderance of the evidence, as in a wrongful death claim. This means that even a slayer who is acquitted of the murder in criminal court can still be divested of the inheritance by the civil court administering the estate.

So even if he didn't forge these insurance documents, between the evidence and restaurant witnesses to the pre 'snorkling' drinking of unknown substance from the car (and did GG actually admit she took sleeping pills?), the Slayer Rule.... If ALE think he's responsible for her disappearance, you can bet your bippy so does AMEX.

I have to agree with HatesSociopaths line of thinking. I think he was planning something else but jumped the gun so to speak in a fit of jealous anger. I don't mean to be crude, but I'm thinking he'd enjoy as much sex (with pictures!) with her as possible before accomplishing his real reason for being there ... and they still had a few days of vacation left, I believe.

And again, for those who say "He had to know this and he'd be smarter that that..." All sorts of evidence to the contrary if you review his past legal mishaps and lawsuits ... and mix into that a person who is reported to go into fits of anger/rage .... people like that aren't really thinking, "Oooooh, this might nullify the policy, better not leave fingerprints/break any bones, don't let her scratch me, and I wonder what her tox screen will look like..." when they're choking the life outta someone in a fit of rage..

 

[Magdalyn]

Thanks.

Interesting.

Was GG a smoker?

PT used to wipe down/off blood - lighter used to burn pt - to ensure its vanishing act.

By 'pt' do you mean paper towel? Personally, I think the paper towel is just a benign anomaly. He's a sweaty guy or has allergies and happened to ask the waitress as they were leaving if he could take the almost empty roll.

Because I REALLY can't imagine, if it was premeditated since before the restaurant, that part of his plan would be, "Eat late lunch at restaurant, give RG drinks from car, pay tab, aquire paper towel roll from table for evidence clean-up, leave restaurant..."

and if that plan was hatched in a jealous fit of rage (he sees her text while they're eating)... I don't see him calmly plotting, "Better grab the paper towel. Can wipe hands with blood with that instead of a beach towel and then burn the evidence with that lighter I have in the car."

That being said, paper towel and a lighter WOULD be a good way to get rid of evidence. I just don't think it's the case here, IMO. :seeya:

 

[kimmera]

Honestly, that's what I thought, but reading through the AMEX policy, it's slightly fuzzy. (See HateSociopaths post 628 points A and B.)

At the end of 'A' it says "or other unavoidable reason".... and I think going snorkling alone (non populated area) after imbibing on some unknown concoction in GG's car (and you can be sure the insurance company will avail themselve of THAT videotape/those photos)... would be considered AVOIDABLE.

On top of that, there's the Slayer Rule:
Slayer rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Slayer Rule says:

While convicting someone of the crime of murder requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the slayer rule applies to civil law, not criminal law, so it is only necessary to prove the wrongful killing by a preponderance of the evidence, as in a wrongful death claim. This means that even a slayer who is acquitted of the murder in criminal court can still be divested of the inheritance by the civil court administering the estate.

So even if he didn't forge these insurance documents, between the evidence and restaurant witnesses to the pre 'snorkling' drinking of unknown substance from the car (and did GG actually admit she took sleeping pills?), the Slayer Rule.... If ALE think he's responsible for her disappearance, you can bet your bippy so does AMEX.

I have to agree with HatesSociopaths line of thinking. I think he was planning something else but jumped the gun so to speak in a fit of jealous anger. I don't mean to be crude, but I'm thinking he'd enjoy as much sex (with pictures!) with her as possible before accomplishing his real reason for being there ... and they still had a few days of vacation left, I believe.

And again, for those who say "He had to know this and he'd be smarter that that..." All sorts of evidence to the contrary if you review his past legal mishaps and lawsuits ... and mix into that a person who is reported to go into fits of anger/rage .... people like that aren't really thinking, "Oooooh, this might nullify the policy, better not leave fingerprints/break any bones, don't let her scratch me, and I wonder what her tox screen will look like..." when they're choking the life outta someone in a fit of rage..

BBM~

Okay, I am confused by this. Are you saying that he planned to murder her for the insurance money at some OTHER time during the trip, but when he saw what she texted to RF he went crazy and just killed her then instead? With no preparation?:waitasec:

I agree that from what we are learning about his history, GG really is THAT stupid. What I cannot believe, in looking at how he has lived his life thus far, is that he apparently has not done any time in jail. How is that possible? :banghead: JMO.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

This is from the AMEX policy:

Accident means a sudden, unexpected, or unintended
event that occurs at a single, identifiable time and
place, and that causes Accidental Death,
Dismemberment, or Accidental Injury. An Accident
may not be caused by Sickness or other conditions, or
by the voluntary ingestion, injection, or inhalation of
any substance.

Accidental Death means the death of a Covered
Person as a direct result of an Accident.
Accidental Injury means bodily injury

Beneficiary means the person or entity designated on
forms and in a manner approved by Us to receive
benefits in the event of Accidental Death. If no person
or entity is designated, the Beneficiary will be
determined by the terms of the Certificate.

https://secure.cmax.americanexpress...ument/AETI_Sample_Annual_Base_Certificate.pdf

 

[Just-a-Guy]

BBM~
Okay, I am confused by this. Are you saying that he planned to murder her for the insurance money at some OTHER time during the trip, but when he saw what she texted to RF he went crazy and just killed her then instead? With no preparation?:waitasec:

That is precisely the hypothesis set forth in one of the articles linked above. Kind of a perfect storm sequence of events, but plausible.

I agree that from what we are learning about his history, GG really is THAT stupid. What I cannot believe, in looking at how he has lived his life thus far, is that he apparently has not done any time in jail. How is that possible? :banghead: JMO.

Mostly it's been petty crimes, accusations that were not pursued by the victims, and civil disputes.

 

[Magdalyn]

BBM~

Okay, I am confused by this. Are you saying that he planned to murder her for the insurance money at some OTHER time during the trip, but when he saw what she texted to RF he went crazy and just killed her then instead? With no preparation?:waitasec:

I agree that from what we are learning about his history, GG really is THAT stupid. What I cannot believe, in looking at how he has lived his life thus far, is that he apparently has not done any time in jail. How is that possible? :banghead: JMO.

Good lawyer? With the fraudulent law suit, he withdrew, I believe. And didn't he blackmail one woman with pornographic pics to get her to drop charges as well?

 

[Magdalyn]

This is from the AMEX policy:



https://secure.cmax.americanexpress...ument/AETI_Sample_Annual_Base_Certificate.pdf

And again, how does the beneficiary PROVE accident when he has no body? The beneficiary has a two hour time frame with no witnesses AFTER a one hour timeframe of them imbibing unknown substances from the car.... and ON HIS WORD--the beneficiary's word-- they were snorkling, she was struggling, and now she's 'missing'.

If I were a betting woman (and had the money to back it!) I'd bet 1.5 million dollars AMEX will not be paying this claim.