At 16 Cyntoia Brown Killed A "Customer" Should she be Released from Prison?

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KaaBoom said:
Yes, in Tennessee they were criminals and were prosecuted until 2017. Since then they are considered victims. I guess if some here have their way even child murderers won't be criminals. I hope people understand that there will be serious consequences by not holding minors responsible for their actions. Murder is wrong, and even a 16 year old girl with a bad life, should be able to understand that, and should pay the consequences for it.

Tennessee Recognized For Laws Combatting Child Sex Trafficking
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Seems to me this girl is paying the consequences for a lot of things beyond her control, both from her vibrant black culture and the white culture of supposed laws. Right this moment I shan't continue, don't want a TO.
 
human said:
Is killing always wrong? What if Jaycee or Elizabeth Smart had killed their captors?
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Neither Elizabeth Smart or Jaycee has been clinically diagnosed with an antisocial Personality disorder.

Cyntonia was diagnosed with an antisocial Personality disorder BEFORE she killed a man. That, in and of itself, is scary.

I have done quite a bit of research on Antisocial Personality disorder, and adoption. It is something that is not often discussed, but an antisocial Personality disorder has been linked to genetic rather than environmental.

An interesting case on this website is Jeremy Strohmeyer, an adopted child, he was adopted as an infant, his biological mother was a drug addict in a state mental institution, his father was a rapist. Strohmeyer grew up in an affluent neighborhood, had many problems, was taken to counseling, special schools. He is currently serving a life sentence in prison, for killing a young girl.

NV - Sherrice Iverson, 7, sexually assaulted, killed in Primm casino, 25 May 1997

The ACE could actually be the genetic Antisocial Personality Disorder manifesting itself.
 
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There is a lot of research out there on how trauma changes the structure of the brain. The tools now exist to see the brain.

Studying about child development will help address the issues of why adoption into a wealthy home is not addressing the underlying needs of an infant .

ACES has all kinds of research on what can help in remediation.

Some kids may be too far gone because we do not have the tools yet to deal with the changes in the brain. But someday we may know more of what to do.

Everyone makes choices. Some of us have not been abused or severely abused. Some of us have not had our very existance assaulted in infancy or in the womb.

Think of a plant. Even a plant cannot grow in poisoned soul or without sun and water and nutrients in the soil.

We expect humans to thrive in hell?
 
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human said:
They are going to have to look at the brain research from doctors. This study is from 2016. Old news now
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Of course. It is an unpopular hypothesis, genetic predisposition for criminal behavior. If we can identify the gene for ASPD, what do we do with children who have this genome? Science is not ready to respond to that question. Nor is society in general.

So, let's try to deflect and find some other cause of the week, for ASPD.
 
mickey2942 said:
Of course. It is an unpopular hypothesis, genetic predisposition for criminal behavior. If we can identify the gene for ASPD, what do we do with children who have this genome? Science is not ready to respond to that question. Nor is society in general.

So, let's try to deflect and find some other cause of the week, for ASPD.
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You mean like actual brain scans? You mean deflection like that?

People have genes for all kinds of things. Let us use alcoholism, for instance. It is hard to be a practicing alcoholic without drinking. Hm.

Could there be more to this gene thing. Hm. I wonder if actual doctors doing brain scans mean anything? Hm
 
Trident said:
Seems to me this girl is paying the consequences for a lot of things beyond her control, both from her vibrant black culture and the white culture of supposed laws. Right this moment I shan't continue, don't want a TO.
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She is paying the consequences for pulling the trigger. That was very much within her control. Nobody was there forcing her to do that.
 
I think we have to be very careful when discussing the “nature vs nurture” elements in the debate over the “cause” of criminality.

I think the “nature vs nurture” elements are worthwhile to discuss/ debate as a purely intellectual exercise, or in an academic setting. I think teachers, counselors, mental health providers should be aware of these kind of emerging issues in caring for kids and teens—I think that is the best use, currently, for that information.

However, because these elements are so subjective, non-reproducible, and elusive to quantify, and are not backed with quantitative peer-reviewed research, I don’t think they bring much value to an objective evaluation of the lawfulness of someone’s criminal behavior. These issues of nature vs nurture should be given emphasis or weight in sentencing or clemency sparingly, IMO.

"Nature vs nurture” is in the infancy of actual peer-reviewed, double blinded research—and the populations that have been studied are scientifically insufficient to make *any* generalizations—as the author in a linked study above makes clear related to his own bran scan and family history.

Right now, the “nature vs nurture” issues are best appreciated and considered by psychologists, social workers, teachers, counselors, and other mental health providers. Not prosecutors, juries, judges, etc. These are not issues the justice system can, or should, be strongly considering at this point in time, IMO, because they CANNOT consider these issues fairly to ALL accused.

The legal and justice system needs to focus on actions, behaviors, and laws in order to exercise the highest degree of blind justice to all accused. Is our system perfect? Heck no. But I’ve lived and travelled in dozens of countries around the world in my life, and our U.S. system is by far the most fair and just in the world, IMO. I realize some don’t agree with that, but I’d argue that those people don’t have much perspective or knowledge about legal systems outside of the U.S., and the rights of the accused (or absence of rights). Cyntoia Brown was treated entirely fairly in the TN system. She was not given LWOP, she had her case debated between juvenile and adult charges, she had several charges dropped or reduced, she was not subject to the death penalty because of her age, etc.

We should remember that if CB had been just 517 days older when she killed JA, she could have been subjected to the death penalty, and LWOP, for her crimes in the state of TN.

No one wants to live in a society where we do a genetic test on an infant, or a brain scan, and declare that infant a future potential criminal that requires lifetime surveillance and limitations. And no one wants to live in a society where any convicted violent felon or murderer with an “excuse” from their childhood is found not guilty by reason of adverse childhood experiences.

Nature vs nuture discussions don't allow for the population of individuals that we don’t know about—how many with adverse childhood experiences and genetic pre-disposition DO NOT commit violent crimes?

How many with no genetic predisposition and no adverse childhood experiences DO commit violent crimes?

How will we OBJECTIVELY define, measure, and prove “adverse childhood experiences”? And so forth. The “science” in this area is simply not objective enough, and most of the research is convenience samples of descriptive research, or purely anecdotal retrospective reporting. Much of the common discussion about “nature vs nurture of criminality” is heavily biased opinion pieces in lay-person publications and magazines, with tenuous links back to a single, interesting observational “study”, etc. They are not scientific, they are pseudo-scientific.

We base our system of justice on ACTIONS and BEHAVIORS of individuals, and believe fundamentally that individuals have free will and choice when they act-- regardless of their background. Largely, we base our justice system on objective information and evidence about crimes. And yes, we do place the actions of an accused individual in context so we can understand better what happened and why. Which again, is why a hypothetical scenario of Jaycee Dugard, or a hypothetical scenario of Elizabeth Smart killing their captors is simply not at all comparable or equivalent to the circumstances and context of how and why Cyntoia Brown killed JA. They were completely innocent, cruelly kidnapped, imprisoned sex slaves. Cyntoia Brown was not. I'm hopeful Gov. Haslam does not pardon her-- I don't think that would be fair, or just. She has another appeal pending for potential re-sentencing. I think that's a better avenue.
 
human said:
Here is the link to Adverse Childhood Experiences.

I realize that just because the link is posted , it does not mean people will read it.

There is a lot of info of how to deal with this issue.

I feel as the different groups that deal with children are trained to inderstand what these mean and interventions are down, we can cut down on the horrors that people experience.

We cannot incarcerate huge amounts of people. We cannot afford it. It is smarter to deal with issues up front than later.

Cyntoyia is the child people cry for. Perhaps Caylee Anthony would have turned out like this.

Adverse Childhood Experiences | SAMHSA
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I wanted to speak to the linked agency here. The problem I see with large tax funded governmental bureaucracies such as SAMHSA, IMO, is that they exist to “publish and promote awareness” of painfully obvious issues and associations that most reasonably intelligent 4th graders could describe. They are not authoritative primary sources for accurate information, IMO-- and they definitely have a bias based on the political wind blowing and funding them at the time of their work. (Bloated agencies like SAMHSA exist to promote themselves, and justify their continued existence, first and foremost, IMO.)

These publicly funded bureaucratic agencies rarely, IMO, publish or “discover” anything new, and don’t have any realistic, implementable solutions for what they describe.

A good example is the info linked upthread that “a lot of kids born into an environment of poverty, crime, and drug addiction often go on to experience poverty, engage in crime, and become substance abusers”. That is not a discovery. It’s an elementary observation.

That’s like doing a study and publishing something like “many people who have hernia repairs have abdominal wall defects before surgery.” Or, “100% of women who have a cesarean section were pregnant before surgical delivery.” “Or, “many people who die from illicit opioid overdoses are chemically dependent.”
 
human said:
Is killing always wrong? What if Jaycee or Elizabeth Smart had killed their captors?
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I don't thing killing is always wrong, self defense would be one reason to justify it. However even in that situation the first thing a person should do is phone the police.

If Jaycee, ES, or the 3 Cleveland victims used deadly force, that to me would be self defense. But not sure it is proper to even compare these situation with CB situation. In Cleveland, the victims called for help, they got away. They did not try to even harm their captive, they did their best to get away from the situation.
 
CB reminds me of Aileen Wournos, serial killer, who killed several of her "clients", for cash. CB was caught before she killed anyone else. Who knows, she may have only been caught this time, because it seems pretty calculated for a first time. I wonder if there were any unsolved cases with men who died in the same area.
 
Willow Knight said:
I don't thing killing is always wrong, self defense would be one reason to justify it. However even in that situation the first thing a person should do is phone the police.

If Jaycee, ES, or the 3 Cleveland victims used deadly force, that to me would be self defense. But not sure it is proper to even compare these situation with CB situation. In Cleveland, the victims called for help, they got away. They did not try to even harm their captive, they did their best to get away from the situation.
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And in this case the jury rejected her claim of self defense. And I agree those cases are apples and oranges. She was not being held captive. She was walking freely, prostituting herself, committing murder and robbery with no supervision whatsoever. So she can't even claim a Patty Hearst.
 
KaaBoom said:
And in this case the jury rejected her claim of self defense. And I agree those cases are apples and oranges. She was not being held captive. She was walking freely, prostituting herself, committing murder and robbery with no supervision whatsoever. So she can't even claim a Patty Hearst16 .
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I am not sure that she was 'prostituting herself'. She was being prostituted at 16 years old.
 
Gov. Haslam grants executive clemency to 11, Cyntoia Brown not included on list

Dec 20, 2018

"Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam granted executive clemency to 11 people on Thursday. However, the much-debated case of Cyntoia Brown was not included.

Brown was sentenced to life in prison at the age of 16 for murdering a man she claims was prostituting her. Last week, Tennessee Supreme Court chose to make her serve the full life sentence.

“I am pleased to grant these acts of clemency,” Haslam said in a news release. “These individuals have made positive contributions to their communities and deserve pardons, or are individuals who will receive another chance to become contributing members of society by virtue of their commutations.”..."

Gov. Haslam grants executive clemency to 11, Cyntoia Brown not included on list
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