Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[Ellery84]

Sure. But if she already had dried mushrooms, what did she use a dehydrator for?

She used the dehydrator months ago, probably.
Jmo


Then thought to chuck it out when her ex told her he believed she had poisoned his parents.

Death caps grow in Autumn, not winter… it’s currently winter in August in Australia…

 

[Estelle]

BEEF WELLINGTON Ingredients​

• 150g chestnut mushrooms, roughly chopped
• 5g dried wild mushrooms, soaked for 20 minutes in cold water, then drained
• 1 tbsp chopped fresh thyme
• 1 tbsp olive oil
• 2 x 150g fillet or rump steaks, 2-3cm thick
• 300g puff pastry
• 50g chicken liver pâté (we like Castle MacLellan)
• 1 medium free-range egg, beaten

Method​

1. Preheat the oven to 220°C/fan200°C/gas 7. In a pan, cook the mushrooms and thyme in the olive oil over a mediu
   

   Could you clarify this if possible?

   
   m heat for 5-10 minutes until golden and dry-ish. Season and leave to cool slightly.
2. Roll the pastry to 0.5cm thick, then cut into 2 x 40cm x 25cm rectangles. For each parcel, arrange half the mushrooms in a steak-size rectangle across the centre of the pastry. Smooth half the pâté over one side of a steak and place, pâté-side down, on the mushrooms. Season. Brush the exposed pastry with some beaten egg, then take the short sides and fold tightly over the steak and over one another. Trim and discard any pastry that extends beyond the parcel and crimp the open sides to seal. Turn over, brush all over with the remaining egg, then chill for 10 minutes.
3. Bake for 12 minutes for medium rare, or longer if you like. Rest for 5 minutes, then serve.

This is the first recipe I've seen where they tell you to use two types of mushrooms as EP said she used. What is the point of using two types?

Could you clarify this if possible?

The wrong quote came up. I'm not sure why that has happened. But here's the quote you were referring to.

Also she went to the rubbish dump on the Saturday. I think they said in the morning before the lunch. The investigator said he only found that out because one of their employees slipped up and said he wasn't working on the Saturday!

From the show "under Investigation" Channel 9

Could you clarify this if possible?

I have stated the reference. I'm sure you have watched this too.

Under Investigation Season 5 Ep 9 The Last Lunch, Watch TV Online

Liz Hayes and her team of investigators probe the mystery gripping Australia and the world. Three dead, another clinging to life, after a mushroom lunch in small-town Victoria.

www.9now.com.au

 

[KooshBall]

People that routinely make themselves throw up often have cuts on their fingers and knuckles. It's called Russell 's Sign. My eyesight isn't good enough to be able to tell if that is what the cuts on EP look like.

 

[JLZ]

Here's a theory, but it might be unnecessarily complicated. EP did buy dried mushrooms at an Asian store some time ago, maybe not in Glen Waverley, and a record will eventually be found. There was nothing wrong with those mushrooms . . . at that stage. She also bought fresh button mushrooms at the ordinary supermarket. She also foraged death cap mushrooms. She soaked the death caps in water, and some of the soluble poison went into the water. She then soaked the bought dried mushrooms in the poison water, and they became poisonous. She used the dehydrator to dry the soaked mushrooms: they remained poisonous and were good to be stored for a while. She cooked beef wellington with the fresh and dried mushrooms, neither of which were death caps, but the dried ones contained the death cap poison. A clinical examination of the victims' digestive tracts and faeces would confirm, if anything, that button mushrooms and whatever variety the dried ones were had been eaten, and no other kind, and neither of those mushrooms was the death cap or any other poisonous variety.

 

[jepop]

BEEF WELLINGTON Ingredients​

• 150g chestnut mushrooms, roughly chopped
• 5g dried wild mushrooms, soaked for 20 minutes in cold water, then drained
• 1 tbsp chopped fresh thyme
• 1 tbsp olive oil
• 2 x 150g fillet or rump steaks, 2-3cm thick
• 300g puff pastry
• 50g chicken liver pâté (we like Castle MacLellan)
• 1 medium free-range egg, beaten

Method​

1. Preheat the oven to 220°C/fan200°C/gas 7. In a pan, cook the mushrooms and thyme in the olive oil over a mediu
   
   
   m heat for 5-10 minutes until golden and dry-ish. Season and leave to cool slightly.
2. Roll the pastry to 0.5cm thick, then cut into 2 x 40cm x 25cm rectangles. For each parcel, arrange half the mushrooms in a steak-size rectangle across the centre of the pastry. Smooth half the pâté over one side of a steak and place, pâté-side down, on the mushrooms. Season. Brush the exposed pastry with some beaten egg, then take the short sides and fold tightly over the steak and over one another. Trim and discard any pastry that extends beyond the parcel and crimp the open sides to seal. Turn over, brush all over with the remaining egg, then chill for 10 minutes.
3. Bake for 12 minutes for medium rare, or longer if you like. Rest for 5 minutes, then serve.

This is the first recipe I've seen where they tell you to use two types of mushrooms as EP said she used. What is the point of using two types?

The wrong quote came up. I'm not sure why that has happened. But here's the quote you were referring to.


Could you clarify this if possible?

I have stated the reference. I'm sure you have watched this too.

Under Investigation Season 5 Ep 9 The Last Lunch, Watch TV Online

Liz Hayes and her team of investigators probe the mystery gripping Australia and the world. Three dead, another clinging to life, after a mushroom lunch in small-town Victoria.

www.9now.com.au

Thank you! Have since been able to access. Unclear to me what basis there is for EP having been at dump/tip the morning prior to beef wellington lunch. I suppose tip video footage will likely reveal if there's any basis, in the mean-time I'm putting it in the speculated or mistaken/misunderstood (on the part of the program) basket. Moo

 

[JLZ]

Thank you! Have since been able to access. Unclear to me what basis there is for EP having been at dump/tip the morning prior to beef wellington lunch. I suppose tip video footage will likely reveal if there's any basis, in the mean-time I'm putting it in the speculated or mistaken/misunderstood (on the part of the program) basket. Moo

Yes, it sounded like the worker was just being evasive with the media: don't ask me, I don't know anything, I wasn't even here. It's not even clear which Saturday he's talking about.

 

[Estelle]

Yes, it sounded like the worker was just being evasive with the media: don't ask me, I don't know anything, I wasn't even here. It's not even clear which Saturday he's talking about.

It depends whether the worker said "that Saturday" that he wasn't working.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with much of your post, however the poisonous substance, I would say, in addition to causing the same symptoms would also have to be known to destroy the liver? Moo

Amatoxin Mushroom Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Amatoxin containing mushrooms are a rare but significant cause of acute fulminant liver failure. However, not all Amanita species have this toxin, and other mushroom species besides Amanita have the amatoxin. (Table) Ninety-five percent of deaths from mushroom ingestions worldwide are from...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is a part about the mechanism of amatoxin effects.

But if I understood this article correctly, liver failure, although fulminant, usually develops in phase II. Some people may not survive into phase II, and in phase I one would see, first, whole body effects. In ingested poisons, GI ones.

Let me give another example: thallium, another horrible poison which is used in rhodenticides and ant-killers, is described by Agatha Christie. In her story, the main symptom was hair loss. Alopecia in thallium poisoning develops in about two weeks, but that if people live into it. If they die sooner, the symptoms might be only from GI tract + death from collapse. At this phase, it might be yet impossible to guess what poison was used judging by clinical picture. If you are told, we ate mushrooms, you’d probably look for amatoxin first.

Those who survive into phase II of thallium poisoning, will develop neurological symptoms, and this is where the doctors would be able to rule out a lot of poisons, including mushrooms.

What I want to say, a big enough dose of most poisons is expected to cause death within a day. Probably, at that phase doctors would initially see the same symptoms (GI ones, mostly). In this phase, the suspicion about mushrooms might be based on the report “we ate mushrooms”. What, in fact, caused the poisoning, would be yet difficult to diagnose.

It people survive phase I, in phase II, new symptoms would appear, and they might differ between poisons, but yet may not always be specific enough. In phase III, it probably should be very clear what caused the poisoning, but people have to survive into phase III. And sometimes even phase III is not crystal clear (radioactive polonium poisoning in London required autopsy for the diagnosis, for example).

MOO. We think mushrooms because: a) we were told, mushrooms from an Asian market and b) we were told that Ian might need liver transplant. Today, we know that a) mushrooms or not, Asian market was not involved and b) Ian didn’t need liver transplant. It could mean that Ian was lucky or, that the toxin did not affect his liver.

The information we get from different sources is unbelievably different in this case. It might be so that LE, seeing that EP was an unreliable reporter, decided to use the same strategy with her. If so, it was a very wise decision.

 

[Estelle]

Murder, Mystery and Mushrooms: Did They Kill?​

According to THE BEHAVIOUR PANEL which I watch frequently, EP's body language is suspicious.

 

[jepop]

Here's a theory, but it might be unnecessarily complicated. EP did buy dried mushrooms at an Asian store some time ago, maybe not in Glen Waverley, and a record will eventually be found. There was nothing wrong with those mushrooms . . . at that stage. She also bought fresh button mushrooms at the ordinary supermarket. She also foraged death cap mushrooms. She soaked the death caps in water, and some of the soluble poison went into the water. She then soaked the bought dried mushrooms in the poison water, and they became poisonous. She used the dehydrator to dry the soaked mushrooms: they remained poisonous and were good to be stored for a while. She cooked beef wellington with the fresh and dried mushrooms, neither of which were death caps, but the dried ones contained the death cap poison. A clinical examination of the victims' digestive tracts and faeces would confirm, if anything, that button mushrooms and whatever variety the dried ones were had been eaten, and no other kind, and neither of those mushrooms was the death cap or any other poisonous variety.

It does seem highly convoluted and improbable (Imo) but I like your post nonetheless! One question that arose for me when reading - I always figured the hospital would be able to confirm scientifically (not just from the victims' statements) what they actually ate in, say, the hours before their hospital admissions. But have just realised haven't really thought through how that might occur.

As I understand it, they all checked in sometime on 30th July after having had symptoms for some hours (maybe they checked in after daylight on 30th, maybe some checked in in the pre-dawn hours - I don't think that's been clarified). If diarrhea was one of those symptoms, I'm now wondering how their stomach contents could be confirmed if perhaps the mushrooms themselves had already been digested or even vomited up at home first. I know at autopsies stomach contents can be ascertained, but by the time the three deceased were autopsied the stomach contents from their July 29th meal would be long gone I'm guessing. Moo

But, and apologies if I'm misunderstanding, I think you're saying that samples of their faeces if taken by the hospital would reveal the stomach contents or otherwise demonstrate the type of mushrooms consumed? I'm not at all knowledgable about that as a procedure, but makes sense and seems logical if the tests can identify some specific particle or whatnot that can be traced back to mushroom type. Also vomit might be analysed for food consumed in last 24 hours or something? Wonder how long mushrooms take to digest? I've probably missed posts about that here - will google it. Moo

ETA: re-reading your post I'm also seeing that you mention that examination of digestive tracts at autopsy could reveal which mushrooms were consumed.

 

[jepop]

Amatoxin Mushroom Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Amatoxin containing mushrooms are a rare but significant cause of acute fulminant liver failure. However, not all Amanita species have this toxin, and other mushroom species besides Amanita have the amatoxin. (Table) Ninety-five percent of deaths from mushroom ingestions worldwide are from...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is a part about the mechanism of amatoxin effects.

But if I understood this article correctly, liver failure, although fulminant, usually develops in phase II. Some people may not survive into phase II, and in phase I one would see, first, whole body effects. In ingested poisons, GI ones.

Let me give another example: thallium, another horrible poison which is used in rhodenticides and ant-killers, is described by Agatha Christie. In her story, the main symptom was hair loss. Alopecia in thallium poisoning develops in about two weeks, but that if people live into it. If they die sooner, the symptoms might be only from GI tract + death from collapse. At this phase, it might be yet impossible to guess what poison was used judging by clinical picture. If you are told, we ate mushrooms, you’d probably look for amatoxin first.

Those who survive into phase II of thallium poisoning, will develop neurological symptoms, and this is where the doctors would be able to rule out a lot of poisons, including mushrooms.

What I want to say, a big enough dose of most poisons is expected to cause death within a day. Probably, at that phase doctors would initially see the same symptoms (GI ones, mostly). In this phase, the suspicion about mushrooms might be based on the report “we ate mushrooms”. What, in fact, caused the poisoning, would be yet difficult to diagnose.

It people survive phase I, in phase II, new symptoms would appear, and they might differ between poisons, but yet may not always be specific enough. In phase III, it probably should be very clear what caused the poisoning, but people have to survive into phase III. And sometimes even phase III is not crystal clear (radioactive polonium poisoning in London required autopsy for the diagnosis, for example).

MOO. We think mushrooms because: a) we were told, mushrooms from an Asian market and b) we were told that Ian might need liver transplant. Today, we know that a) mushrooms or not, Asian market was not involved and b) Ian didn’t need liver transplant. It could mean that Ian was lucky or, that the toxin did not affect his liver.

The information we get from different sources is unbelievably different in this case. It might be so that LE, seeing that EP was an unreliable reporter, decided to use the same strategy with her. If so, it was a very wise decision.

For sure we need to understand what COD was for all three victims and the progressive symptomology of all including Ian.Moo Thanks for the great info - really informative post.

ETA:afterthought RBBM: I do think though that the reports that at an earlier stage of illness Ian might have needed a liver transplant tend to indicate that his liver was failing/compromised and that would seem to ultimately be a result of the toxin (or an effect of it). That is ofcourse, if the reports are based on verified sources from the hospital where he is being treated. Moo

 

[Oona]

• Mushroom chef Erin Patterson had visible cuts on her right middle finger
• Filmed with cuts to middle and around nail bed of same finger
• Cuts visible 9 days after fatal Beef Wellington lunch
• Later said she'd dumped mushroom dryer at local tip

edited to add it is odd that there is no story here
the victims were not stabbed to death
any # of ways to produce cuts on one's own hands and not be a killer

I think the media are getting desperate for a headline
Personally I have had a very similar looking finger injury from a burn when removing something from the oven….not beef Wellington though

 

[Ellery84]

b) Ian didn’t need liver transplant.

What makes you think that, Charlot?

 

[JBowie]

Murder, Mystery and Mushrooms: Did They Kill?​

According to THE BEHAVIOUR PANEL which I watch frequently, EP's body language is suspicious.

In the intro Hartley says that EP is one of two people accused of murder, which is factually incorrect at this time.

I agree with the consensus of the panel that she's faking sorrow and grief. Again, IMO, it's the worst acting ever. As Hughes says: "it might look like a bad audition tape for a TV commercial".

Starts at 57:32

 

[Estelle]

In the 70s, I used to invite another couple over for dinner and my signature dish was Beef Wellington. However, I used to make it in separate parcels. I also used pate which masked the taste of mushrooms as I don't really like mushrooms.

IMO EP would probably have made individual Beef Wellingtons where she could have made one for herself which did not have the poisonous mushrooms in it. Also if she really did give it to her children the next day with mushrooms scraped off, she could have made three extra individual ones as it appears that "scraping off the mushrooms" might not have made much difference as the poison would have got into the beef in the meantime.

 

[Charlot123]

What makes you think that, Charlot?

This is what I read in the newspaper

Tragic twist in funerals of Aussie mushroom victims

News comes as only survivor shows signs of improvement.

www.nzherald.co.nz

It says “may not need a liver transplant”, so I misunderstood.

Hopefully, he won’t. I also hope, against odds, that he is observant and may give a good account of the events. Usually women are better at this, but my dad was a great historian.

 

[Estelle]

This is what I read in the newspaper

Tragic twist in funerals of Aussie mushroom victims

News comes as only survivor shows signs of improvement.

www.nzherald.co.nz

It says “may not need a liver transplant”, so I misunderstood.

Hopefully, he won’t. I also hope, against odds, that he is observant and may give a good account of the events. Usually women are better at this, but my dad was a great historian.

I did a search for this information too. I think this must be an error on this link below.

The only surviving guest, Ian Wilkinson, remains in a critical condition, fighting for his life.

Even if he does survive, doctors say that he will require an urgent kidney transplant.

Did this mum poison her relatives with death cap mushrooms?

Could this suburban mum of two really have poisoned four of her relatives by serving them death cap mushrooms in a beef wellington?

thewest.com.au

 

[Estelle]

I haven't seen this reported before.

And yet, even as she spoke, behind her lay a possible clue as to where the mushrooms had come from — for a cluster of bright orange fungi could be seen at the foot of a tree a short distance away. was a murder weapon hiding in plain sight?

Did this mum poison her relatives with death cap mushrooms?

Could this suburban mum of two really have poisoned four of her relatives by serving them death cap mushrooms in a beef wellington?

thewest.com.au

 

[jepop]

In the intro Hartley says that EP is one of two people accused of murder, which is factually incorrect at this time.

I agree with the consensus of the panel that she's faking sorrow and grief. Again, IMO, it's the worst acting ever. As Hughes says: "it might look like a bad audition tape for a TV commercial".

Starts at 57:32

RBBM" I think they're analysing two diffrent cases in the episode so he's referring to the second case (from the US) which takes up most of the the video. Analysis of EP only takes place in the last quarter (approx) of the video. Moo

 

[Estelle]

I haven't seen this reported before.

And yet, even as she spoke, behind her lay a possible clue as to where the mushrooms had come from — for a cluster of bright orange fungi could be seen at the foot of a tree a short distance away. was a murder weapon hiding in plain sight?

Did this mum poison her relatives with death cap mushrooms?

Could this suburban mum of two really have poisoned four of her relatives by serving them death cap mushrooms in a beef wellington?

thewest.com.au

Is orange fungus poisonous?

Is Orange Peel Fungus Poisonous? Contrary to what some cup fungi info may state, orange peel fungus is not poisonous and is, in fact, an edible mushroom, although it really has no taste. It does not secrete any toxins, but it does share a close resemblance to some species of Otidea fungi that do produce harmful toxins