Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[jjleroche]

Full intention to kill, intention to cause grievous bodily harm, reckless indifference to human life, or (for manslaughter) severe negligence.

Manslaughter Murder Homicide laws Victoria |Criminal legal

Murder is probably the most serious offence occurring in Australia and is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so.

victoria.criminallegal.com.au

If someone is facing a charge of murder (as opposed to manslaughter), under Australian Law, intention to murder must be proven for a successful conviction to occur.

There's certainly a great deal of suspicion and speculation, but that doesn't equate to proof of untent.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

Full intention to kill, intention to cause grievous bodily harm, reckless indifference to human life, or (for manslaughter) severe negligence.

Manslaughter Murder Homicide laws Victoria |Criminal legal

Murder is probably the most serious offence occurring in Australia and is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so.

victoria.criminallegal.com.au

does motive have a role ?
Thanks for link.

 

[LadyL]

Yes I don’t understand the confusion as she never claimed she foraged them. They are shop brought and that came from the horses mouth.

She says they were from stores but stores would likely not sell poison mushrooms so people are speculating that she foraged them.

 

[JLZ]

If someone is facing a charge of murder (as opposed to manslaughter), under Australian Law, intention to murder must be proven for a successful conviction to occur.

There's certainly a great deal of suspicion and speculation, but that doesn't equate to proof of untent.

MOO

Australian criminal law is slightly different in different states. In Victoria, the law on intention in homicide is as per my link.

 

[JLZ]

does motive have a role ?
Thanks for link.

It's not one of the essential elements that needs to be proved.

 

[SouthAussie]

It's not one of the essential elements that needs to be proved.

I have read (don't ask me where, I just always remembered it, it might have been during the Karen Ristevski case) that motive doesn't have to be provided. But it is helpful if it can be provided, because it helps a jury "understand" how the person mentally justified committing the murder.

So, the police always also look for the motive.

imo

 

[TootsieFootsie]

'Lots of love to you all': Suspected mushroom poisoning victim's text to family revealed at memorial service

The town of Korumburra in Victoria's south-east has come together to celebrate the life of Don and Gail Patterson, who police believe died from mushroom poisoning at a family lunch in July.

www.abc.net.au

 

[JLZ]

I have read (don't ask me where, I just always remembered it) that motive doesn't have to be provided. But it is helpful if it can be provided, because it helps a jury "understand" how the person mentally justified committing the murder.

So, the police always also look for the motive.

imo

I would say it helps convince the jury that the defendant did the action and intended to do it.

 

[JLZ]

'Lots of love to you all': Suspected mushroom poisoning victim's text to family revealed at memorial service

The town of Korumburra in Victoria's south-east has come together to celebrate the life of Don and Gail Patterson, who police believe died from mushroom poisoning at a family lunch in July.

www.abc.net.au

I don't remember reading before that Gail was at Dandenong Hospital.

 

[kittythehare]

so we're mot likely looking at either

Murder​

In a case of murder (except for when the murder is constructive murder), the prosecution must prove that the accused had full intention to kill, an intention to inflict grievous (and serious) bodily harm, or a reckless indifference to human life. The accused must have foreseen that his or her actions, or failure to act, amounted to the death of the victim.

or

Voluntary Manslaughter​

An intentional killing that is accompanied by mitigating factors describes voluntary manslaughter. The mitigating factors are generally lack of premeditation and provocation, which causes anger or rage; however, there are other factors that may apply. An example of this would be a person who is provoked in an argument, to the extent that they become enraged and immediately lash out at the victim, killing them in the heat of the moment.

Involuntary Manslaughter​

Involuntary manslaughter refers to an unlawful killing without intent – usually, where death is caused by negligence or recklessness, by committing an unlawful and dangerous act. An example of this would be a passenger in a car who is killed due to the driver’s reckless driving behaviour.

Prosecution must prove that death was caused by an unlawful act or omission, an act of neglect, or a departure from the standard of care in which any reasonable person could have seen that the risk in doing so would likely cause death or serious injury.


IF it is proven that their deaths followed food she had given them containing a specific toxin which was deliberately added with full knowledge of it's effects
OR
.. unlawful act or omission, an act of neglect, or a departure from the standard of care in which any reasonable person could have seen that the risk in doing so would likely cause death or serious injury.

I just had a thought after I'd made all that neat in my head.
BEEF Wellington.

What about the beef?

 

[Oona]

If I had unwittingly bought mushrooms from a store that were poisonous and accidentally poisoned my loved ones I’d be absolutely racking my brain to remember the specific store and any detail that might save anyone else from getting sick...and I’d be begging health authorities for a recall.

EP’s statement to “clear up the record” was deliberately vague in my opinion. She had time to try to remember where she bought those mushrooms, could have driven to the suburb she named (Mount Waverley) and tried to refresh her memory, but still she couldn’t remember???

 

[kittythehare]

“There are other wild mushrooms in Australia that have caused fatalities or can make you seriously ill with abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. These include the Cortinarius (webcap) and Galerina species, the ghost mushroom (commonly mistaken for oyster mushrooms), and the yellow stainer which resembles a field mushroom and is the most commonly ingested poisonous mushroom in Victoria and New South Wales,” she said.

Charity renews wild mushroom poisoning warning

The Food Safety Information Council has reminded people in Australia about the risks of getting sick from eating certain types of wild mushrooms. The

www.foodsafetynews.com

 

[RickshawFan]

Omg this is real life I wish I had known


You don’t have to agree with me because this is damaging to all involved that Australia LE are being so slow.

I believe she is involved but on the other hand she could be completely innocent and her life is being torn apart , her children taken away from her and everything she has ever done wrong in her life is fair game to the world . Or on the other hand she is a danger to the community as she has poisoned 4 people.


So yes I am judging the speed here because it’s 2023 and not 1993.


ETA - but I mean these are the same LE who have failed Ray Kehlet and his wife so shouldn’t be shocked.


IMO

Here’s an explanation about why LE can’t move more quickly. In order to confirm amanita poisoning, they have to source a comparator. There are unlikely to be comparators in Australia.


“They (forensic toxicologists) will have likely never done this before,” Dr Robertson said.
“They’ve also got to get a pure sample of the toxin and because (death cap mushroom poisoning) is so uncommon in Australia, they would likely have to source that from overseas.
“So the question now is how quickly can you get something from Europe express post to Australia?”
He said it might be more efficient to have the samples taken to a larger forensic lab in Europe where the death cap mushroom is more common and forensic toxicologists are practised at testing it.
Dr Robertson estimated the tests would take at least six weeks to complete, meaning the results are still at least two weeks off.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/mushroom-toxin-may-have-already-left-system-before-victims-wound-up-in-hospital-after-fateful-lunch/news-story/7a83e286a88467c4e96e5f6cf87f5173

 

[Oona]

Not sure if this Australian 2014 case has been mentioned earlier. Similarly, a home cooked meal poisoned people with death caps. In this case the purchaser of the mushrooms insisted they were bought as button mushrooms from Woolworths and tried to sue Woolworths.
Woolworths recalled the batch of mushrooms and were investigated by ACT Health and ACT police, but cleared.

An important detail is that in hospital it was very quickly identified as death cap mushroom poisoning.
"The medical records clearly show that, right from the start, hospital staff identified death cap mushrooms as the source of the toxins in her body," Rajvir's solicitor, Sally Gleeson of Turner Freeman says.

Rajvir Kaur sues Woolworths over alleged death cap mushroom purchase

Rajvir Kaur had been looking forward to her mother's traditional potato and mushroom curry. It landed her in hospital.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sorry there is no way she would have ate the same meal and then it wouldn’t have affected her. She is old and plump so she definitely isn’t fighting fit.


It simply makes no sense she cooked the meal and escaped any true illness. It simply doesn’t add imo

We would need to know two important things:

1) if she ate any part of the allegedly mushroom poisoned beef wellington (or even any of the meal)

2) if she genuinely had become a bit unwell.

Only the people who attended that lunch will know the truth and three of them are dead. Maybe we'll get information from the fourth person but I imagine it's highly possible she ate nothing. She could have fussed around the visitors, fetching things back and forth from the kitchen, barely sat down, or said she's gone off her food due to the stressful conversation, maybe said she'd eat later with the kids etc.

If she ate some of the meal but only a tiny bit *and* she genuinely did need hospital treatment for a reaction, maybe all of this has been a terrible mistake?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Could even be a snack they shared if they travelled in the same vehicle to and from the lunch.
Those people went to hospital feeling pretty ill and with symptoms of poisoning.
Stool and urine and blood samples would be taken as a matter of routine.
They should be present in those..
They were hospitalised within 36 hrs of the lunch from what I am gathering from unreliable media.. Amanita is present if it is. I put a link up on diagnostic tests available and routinely used in Aus, yesterday. It's not a complicated test..
BUT I remember doing research on other highly toxic mushrooms a few threads back, some are strikingly similar in the symptoms they produce.

It's impossible to guess at it.

The victims would have had liver and renal function monitored constantly which would show poisoning progressive damage despite their best efforts to save them.
She allegedly provided a sample of leftover lunch for further examination, possibly while they were hospitalised but before they died.
I don't have a clue what their bio tests or the tests of her food yielded.

It's a mystery.
All of it.

Strychnine, for example goes like this

CDC Strychnine | Facts about Strychnine | Public Health Emergency Preparedness& Response

Information on terrorism and public health. Provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

emergency.cdc.gov

Re the urine and stool samples taken, would they have been kept I wonder?

Because it strikes me they would have been tested for the usual food poisoning culprits (certain types of bacteria and pathogens) and the usual allergic reaction substances and / or highly contagious gastric flu or something but probably not screened for every type of toxin.

Wouldn't the stool samples have been destroyed after going to a lab that was just looking for 'the usual' things?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Simon Patterson, who is the former partner of Erin Patterson, reflected on the legacy of his parents, saying they were "very much a team working at life together".

"The fact they died in consecutive days reflects the togetherness that they always worked so hard (to achieve)," he said.

"We were one of the few families who also sat together at the tea table for the evening meal.

Son of mushroom poisoning victims reveals mum's final text message from hospital bed

www.9news.com.au

 

[LordCyrus]

With EP under intense media scrutiny, I would have expected some friends or family to come forward and attest to her good character and presumed innocence. This hasn't happened, so she must have been living a very isolated life.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

*For those of us (me) who aren’t great cooks, a recipe:​

Ingredients​

• 750g beef fillet, trimmed, at room temperature
• Extra virgin olive oil, to rub
• 2 tbs Dijon mustard
• 15 thin slices prosciutto
• ½ cup crème fraiche
• Finely grated fresh horseradish
• Dressed watercress, to serve (see notes)

PUFF PASTRY​

• 540g plain flour, plus extra for dusting
• 80g cold salted butter, cut into 1cm pieces
• 3½ tsp (10g) salt flakes
• 280ml cold water
• 2 x 250g blocks cold salted butter, extra

DUXELLES​

• 500g mixed mushrooms (button, portobello, flat, Swiss)
• 1 tbs finely chopped thyme leaves
• 1 small clove garlic, peeled
• 2 tbs extra virgin olive oil
• 1 tsp finely chopped fresh tarragon

EGG WASH​

• 3 egg yolks
• 2 tbs thickened cream
• Pinch of salt

Method​

• 1
  For the puff pastry, add flour, 80g cold butter and salt to the chilled bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook. On medium speed, knead for about 5 to 6 minutes, or until a fine crumb forms, scraping down the inside of the bowl as required. Add the cold water and knead on medium until mixture starts to come together. Reduce speed to low and knead for 3 to 4 minutes, or until a smooth dough forms. Remove from the bowl and shape into a flat square, wrap in plastic wrap and place in the freezer for 10 minutes.
• 2
  Meanwhile, cut the two blocks of butter lengthways into 5mm thick slices. Refrigerate until ready to laminate pastry.
• 3
  Prepare the duxelles. Working in batches, roughly chop the mushrooms. Place in a food processor, season with salt and pepper and pulse until coarsely chopped. Transfer to a bowl and repeat with remaining mushrooms. Finely grate the garlic over the mushrooms, add the thyme and stir to combine. Set aside.
• 4
  To laminate the pastry, remove dough from the freezer and turn out onto a lightly floured work surface. Using a rolling pin, roll into a 25cm x 45cm rectangle. Arrange 400g of the butter slices, in a single layer, onto one half of the pastry rectangle, leaving a 2cm border from the edges. Save remaining 100g butter for another use. Fold the other side of pastry over to enclose butter, creating a square. Use your fingers to seal the dough around the edges of the butter, pressing out any air as you go. Trim edges evenly if necessary. Roll the pastry gently and evenly into a 30cm x 60cm rectangle, lightly dusting the rolling pin and surface of the pastry as needed. Position the pastry rectangle with long edge closest to you.
• 5
  For the first double fold, fold both the short ends to meet in the centre. Fold this rectangle in half, (like closing a book), creating four layers of pastry. Gently and evenly press together. Keeping pastry in the same position, wrap in plastic wrap. Make a small pen mark in the bottom lefthand corner on the plastic. Place in the freezer for 10 minutes.
• 6
  Meanwhile to sear the beef, heat a large frying pan over a high heat. Rub the beef with oil and a generous amount of salt flakes. Once the pan is hot, Cook the beef, turning occasionally on all sides and ends, for about 6 to 8 minutes, or until browned all over and a crust has formed. Transfer to a clean tray and brush evenly with mustard. Refrigerate for 10 minutes, then remove and set aside on the bench until ready to assemble. Reserve frying pan for duxelles.
• 7
  To cook the duxelles, heat oil in the reserved frying pan over a high heat. Add the mushroom mixture and cook, stirring, for about 10 to 12 minutes, or until liquid has evaporated and mixture is dry. Transfer to a tray and freeze until cool. Stir in tarragon.
• 8
  Meanwhile, remove the pastry from the freezer. Unwrap and place onto a lightly floured bench, returning it to the same position using the pen mark as a guide. Turn pastry 90 degrees to the right (quarter turn) and roll out to a 35cm x 60cm rectangle. Position the pastry so long edge is closest to you. Fold both the short ends to meet in the centre. Fold this rectangle in half, (like closing a book), creating four layers of pastry. Gently and evenly press together. Keeping pastry in the same position, wrap in plastic wrap. Make a small pen mark in the bottom left hand corner on the plastic. Place in the freezer for 15 minutes.
• 9
  Slightly overlap two long pieces of plastic wrap on the bench, short edge closest to you. Lay out prosciutto, slightly overlapping, to form a long rectangle, ensuring it is the width of your beef fillet (5 pieces) and long enough to completely encase the meat when rolled (3 rows). Spread the duxelles evenly over the prosciutto.

https://www.kidspot.com.au/kitchen/recipes/beef-wellington-recipe/qawt3iy0

 

[thunderwombat]

I don't remember reading before that Gail was at Dandenong Hospital.

I had wondered if one or more of the victims had been taken to Dandenong, it being the first major hospital between Gippsland and Melbourne. It doesn't have a great reputation and Monash in Clayton is the place where everyone wants to go in an emergency. I go to Dandy on a monthly basis to have prodedures but only because it is easier for me to get there by public transport.