Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[nbates]

PPS: wonder if the Telstra workers at the time surmised themselves that it was a dead kangaroo or if a certain colleague told them - ? A way to delay and keep an eye on things if so...

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[lampformypath]

Hi Lamp,

RE Jane's murder not being a sexually motivated crime. I have read similar comments over the years in many MSM articles and I really don't understand how the public are supposed to believe these crimes weren't sexually motivated.

Were the comments made originally upon the discovery of Jane's body, before Ciara went missing, then recycled over the years?

I've always questioned the comments and even more so now given the accused is charged with the Huntingdale crime, a brutal abduction and rape at KK as well as 3 murders. I think it is worthy of some discussion. Why would the family of Jane be told that if it wasn't true?

MOO


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Hi MaryLouise911, Yes I think this requires some further discussion and input as I don't believe WAPOL would lie to Jane's parents, as horrible as it would be to tell them, I can't see that happening? So... were these 3 abductions/murders about something else? Revenge for something, supreme hatred of something, did the women remind the CSK of someone whom he couldn't rape, but wanted to punish? And Jane was completely naked whilst Ciara partially clothed (or fully clothed depending on the MSM article you read) so there's a change there in the MO of the CSK in "presenting" his victims. All the women had personal items missing indicating the taking of "trophies", were they both killed in the same way is that the only other similarity? You would think CSK would be "perfecting" his methods as he progressed to his third victim and the idea that the CSK is an "organised" killer who has escalated from vicious rapes to rape and murder, but perhaps not? So many questions.

 

[Spinnaker]

Hi Lamp,

RE Jane's murder not being a sexually motivated crime. I have read similar comments over the years in many MSM articles and I really don't understand how the public are supposed to believe these crimes weren't sexually motivated.

Were the comments made originally upon the discovery of Jane's body, before Ciara went missing, then recycled over the years?

I've always questioned the comments and even more so now given the accused is charged with the Huntingdale crime, a brutal abduction and rape at KK as well as 3 murders. I think it is worthy of some discussion. Why would the family of Jane be told that if it wasn't true?

MOO


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The below extract from Devil's Garden mentions that "Jane's is naked" - sadly does seem like a sexually motivated crime.

Also refers to significant rain affecting the crime scene.

 

[lampformypath]

Thanks again. I have read the Devils Garden ages ago so thanks for that info 're Jane's attack. Wanted to read it again but I've packed it away for a possible future house move and couldn't find it when I last looked. I digress...

I can't remember reading that about her attack not being sexual. That stumps me a bit considering as other poster (Sorry forgot name!) Pointed out about cemetery attack etc.

Maybe Jane fought so hard it was too risky timewise or physically impossible for CSK to finish what he'd started - good for her if that's the case. I thought I read she was relatively quiet but she looks like the life of the party. Hope she was feisty when she needed to be and did some damage. Shame she couldn't get away if this is the scenario.

Didn't realise the Arum Lillies weren't native. Amazing how the extra large ones drew the flower picker to Jane. Wouldn't be surprised if Jane organised that as well. Especially if she fought her darndest and was really PO'd (and I mean that in the nicest possible afterlife way should there be one).

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Thanks NBates, but have to point out, it was an extra large ONE that drew the flower picker in to look. Like a beautiful sign post standing tall, and yes, I like to believe it was divinely placed there to represent her.

It was even weirder, if you read that article, because "Tammy" stopped her car as the kids saw a chicken run across the road and wanted to chase it and it lead them into the bush! ​

And "Tammy" was not just any "flower picker" this woman immediately became a surrogate "mother" for Jane and stood guard over her till the police arrived, she refused to leave her there alone.

And about the girls fighting back, I have no doubt they did after all they were fighting for their lives, those poor terrified women. I've often wondered if the accused had any scratches or bite marks on him from the girls that anyone noticed and he explained away to fellow workers or his loved ones? But as his alleged MO had been to tie up victims, perhaps not, but surely a kick might have happened at some stage?

 

[Spinnaker]

The attached article has been posted numerous times on WS - quite a few points have been raised previously as follows:

• Who did the additional clothing belong to?
• What where the 'other' items found near JR?
• Is SS also in area?

"Inspector Ferguson said there had been several items of clothing and a pair of shoes found. they were stilling examined but did not appear to belong to Miss Rimmer.

Other items had been found at the scene but Insp Ferguson would not elaborate".

He said there was a possibility that Sarah Spier's body was in the area but the swampy bush was frustrating search efforts".

 

[lampformypath]

If the JR's body was placed shortly after going missing on 9 June 1996 and her body was found in August it is probably the start of the season for the lillies.

The similarities were that they were just shortly off a major road. Both bodies were unlikely to be discovered soon but as they were just covered in vegetation. I have read that the sites may have been planned beforehand so that they were easy to access but bodies were not easy to find.

Yes, DRT it would have been the start of lily season. And as for the pre-planned and prepared sites, I've read that police thought the sites might have been pre-chosen, and I agree as the accused could have well known the areas for lots of reasons (fishing in the case of Eglington), off road racing? I also read that time was taken to break off surrounding branches and leaves and cover the bodies (that was in Debi Marshall's book too), so the CSK didn't feel too rushed, nor did he, it seems, take anything with him to cover or wrap the body, so where's the planning there? Paul Ferguson always said that the killer wanted the bodies to be found, was very arrogant, so perhaps that WAS the plan, don't cover them completely, display them. Don't place them too far from a main road to have someone eventually discover them?

 

[lampformypath]

The below extract from Devil's Garden mentions that "Jane's is naked" - sadly does seem like a sexually motivated crime.

Also refers to significant rain affecting the crime scene.

Hi Spinnaker, not necessarily a sex crime because the victim is naked, from what I have read. Could have been to "shame" the victim or belittle them in some cases.

In discussing how the victims were left I found this article very informative, an MO as opposed to a Signature of a SK.

https://authorjenniferchase.com/2011/06/22/offender’s-signature-vs-modus-operandi/

 

[Jackman]

As Jane’s watch was found nearby, it was either dropped in a struggle or discarded by the perpetrator. Jane was found naked perhaps it detached when her clothes were taken off.

This is a similar circumstance to the KK victim whereby the driver’s license was located within the vicinity. Perhaps the licence dropped out of a pocket –which makes sense because she’d had her clothes removed.

 

[Spinnaker]

As Jane’s watch was found nearby, it was either dropped in a struggle or discarded by the perpetrator. Jane was found naked perhaps it detached when her clothes were taken off.

This is a similar circumstance to the KK victim whereby the driver’s license was located within the vicinity. Perhaps the licence dropped out of a pocket –which makes sense because she’d had her clothes removed.

Other items were taken, perhaps dropped.

 

[lampformypath]

As Jane’s watch was found nearby, it was either dropped in a struggle or discarded by the perpetrator. Jane was found naked perhaps it detached when her clothes were taken off.

This is a similar circumstance to the KK victim whereby the driver’s license was located within the vicinity. Perhaps the licence dropped out of a pocket –which makes sense because she’d had her clothes removed.

Hi Jackman, Yes that makes sense too if the actual murders took place at the dump site, as has been suggested previously, but that would mean restraining the women in the car during a long drive, possible too of course, especially if there were 2 people doing the abducting, one hiding in the back seat? Remember too that KK had escaped, and if the accused is guilty of that attack and the Huntingdale one, (and others that he may have committed early on) he's had several monumental blunders and wouldn't want that to happen again, so no more solo work perhaps, needed an accomplice to make sure nobody else got away!

 

[nbates]

As Jane’s watch was found nearby, it was either dropped in a struggle or discarded by the perpetrator. Jane was found naked perhaps it detached when her clothes were taken off.

This is a similar circumstance to the KK victim whereby the driver’s license was located within the vicinity. Perhaps the licence dropped out of a pocket –which makes sense because she’d had her clothes removed.

Interesting. If she was bound were the clothes removed after she had passed away? How did he control her if not? Unconscious maybe but you're taking a risk. A knife may have been used to cut them while still bound I guess, but that sounds a bit labour intensive.

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[petedavo.au]

Hi Jackman, Yes that makes sense too if the actual murders took place at the dump site, as has been suggested previously, but that would mean restraining the women in the car during a long drive, possible too of course, especially if there were 2 people doing the abducting, one hiding in the back seat? Remember too that KK had escaped, and if the accused is guilty of that attack and the Huntingdale one, (and others that he may have committed early on) he's had several monumental blunders and wouldn't want that to happen again, so no more solo work perhaps, needed an accomplice to make sure nobody else got away!

The only problem with an accomplice scenario I see is the apparent lack of any media articles saying that Police are looking for one. Doesn't mean that they are not though, but there'd be some hint in the items they've tested for DNA remnants. There was mention of other items being located at the scenes, unrelated to what the girls were known to be wearing, however it's not been disclosed what the items were as far as I'm aware. Some have speculated that these might be cleaning rags due to an early news report that discussed an FBI profiler view of the perpetrator possible psychological make up. The problem with extraneous material at the scene like cleaning rags is that if there is other DNA on them is that it doesn't prove that it was handled at the time of the attacks, but could of been handled anytime previously. Cigarette butts might be better, but it could be argued that an ashtray from a car was simply emptied, or that the real perpetrator deliberately brought discarded items from someone else to leave at the scenes. Of course there's a possibility that an accomplice could be a close DNA match, like a cousin or something and thus police might of overlooked their DNA being upon extraneous material as only showing that he accused had them in his possession long enough for these items to of been handled at home or out visiting relatives.
As discussed previously in the threads, I've looked for possible alternative suspects or accomplices which is not Subjudicial as the period of Subjudice in regards to the accused started upon his arrest which limits talk about him upon these threads.
So far, I have 3 possible POIs that have been mentioned as close enough to the accused, at least 1 of which would share the same mtDNA. I'm not sure if the other 2 are related or not. I'd need a genealogy chart which follows the mtDNA side of the family to know. Anyhow no one else has been charged and as far as media reports are concerned it doesn't appear that anyone else is suspected. Doesn't mean that the investigation might not turn up something though, and throw it all for a six.
It's early days and until the case comes to trial we might not get enough information to delve much further into other or alternative possible involvement in these girls disappearance and murders. IMO

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[lampformypath]

The only problem with an accomplice scenario I see is the apparent lack of any media articles saying that Police are looking for one. Doesn't mean that they are not though, but there'd be some hint in the items they've tested for DNA remnants. There was mention of other items being located at the scenes, unrelated to what the girls were known to be wearing, however it's not been disclosed what the items were as far as I'm aware. Some have speculated that these might be cleaning rags due to an early news report that discussed an FBI profiler view of the perpetrator possible psychological make up. The problem with extraneous material at the scene like cleaning rags is that if there is other DNA on them is that it doesn't prove that it was handled at the time of the attacks, but could of been handled anytime previously. Cigarette butts might be better, but it could be argued that an ashtray from a car was simply emptied, or that the real perpetrator deliberately brought discarded items from someone else to leave at the scenes. Of course there's a possibility that an accomplice could be a close DNA match, like a cousin or something and thus police might of overlooked their DNA being upon extraneous material as only showing that he accused had them in his possession long enough for these items to of been handled at home or out visiting relatives.
As discussed previously in the threads, I've looked for possible alternative suspects or accomplices which is not Subjudicial as the period of Subjudice in regards to the accused started upon his arrest which limits talk about him upon these threads.
So far, I have 3 possible POIs that have been mentioned as close enough to the accused, at least 1 of which would share the same mtDNA. I'm not sure if the other 2 are related or not. I'd need a genealogy chart which follows the mtDNA side of the family to know. Anyhow no one else has been charged and as far as media reports are concerned it doesn't appear that anyone else is suspected. Doesn't mean that the investigation might not turn up something though, and throw it all for a six.
It's early days and until the case comes to trial we might not get enough information to delve much further into other or alternative possible involvement in these girls disappearance and murders. IMO

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Thanks Pete, great reply, very well thought out, and thought provoking! Deliberately bringing items to leave at the scene that belonged to someone else, the cigarette butts etc. I've heard of this before, quite clever of the perpetrator if this did occur, throwing police off the "scent". And oh to have a genealogy chart and look at what "fruits" are on that tree! Hmm... so much to think about, ah well, back to the drawing board!

 

[Jackman]

Has anyone discussed the possibility the victims may have been immobilized. Meaning harmed in such a way they couldn’t walk. This didn’t occur to the KK victim, but perhaps CSK took specific measures to perfect the abductions.

Lack of DNA might suggest the victims were cleaned somehow. Perhaps if the two latter victims were raped there wasn’t any evidence because they had been vigorously cleaned somehow. That would suggest a specific place was used for this – thinking the vacant commercial place in Government Rd – the one Petedavo has repeatedly suggested.

Somewhere with a hose.

In hindsight he would have needed a blanket/sheet to finally move the victims - but taking that away with him - i.e. removing any final DNA. JMO

 

[petedavo.au]

Has anyone discussed the possibility the victims may have been immobilized. Meaning harmed in such a way they couldn’t walk. This didn’t occur to the KK victim, but perhaps CSK took specific measures to perfect the abductions.

Lack of DNA might suggest the victims were cleaned somehow. Perhaps if the two latter victims were raped there wasn’t any evidence because they had been vigorously cleaned somehow. That would suggest a specific place was used for this – thinking the vacant commercial place in Government Rd – the one Petedavo has repeatedly suggested.

Somewhere with a hose.

In hindsight he would have needed a blanket/sheet to finally move the victims - but taking that away with him - i.e. removing any final DNA. JMO

In previous threads the possibilities of a chemical compound being used to render abductees immobile was discussed many times, mainly due to media reports of a clothesline and a screen printing chemical I think. I pondered at the time about a possible clandestine laboratory for the purpose at Government Rd where the papers were reportedly discovered, and apparent signs of a struggle, as well as jewellery being found, in an article by the Post Newspaper.
Some sleuths pondered that the perpetrator could've assumed a dealing in ecstasy persona to matriculate an abduction. However, IMO there's no evidence to support either in media reports to date.
However, we'll have to wait and see what the toxicology reports say when they entered into evidence at the trial, if there are any.
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[janwa]

Previously posted by Sutton deserves another read

• https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjd4fs15qc...rdeal.pdf?dl=0​
  
  
  

 

[ESH]

Has anyone discussed the possibility the victims may have been immobilized. Meaning harmed in such a way they couldn’t walk. This didn’t occur to the KK victim, but perhaps CSK took specific measures to perfect the abductions.

Lack of DNA might suggest the victims were cleaned somehow. Perhaps if the two latter victims were raped there wasn’t any evidence because they had been vigorously cleaned somehow. That would suggest a specific place was used for this – thinking the vacant commercial place in Government Rd – the one Petedavo has repeatedly suggested.

Somewhere with a hose.

In hindsight he would have needed a blanket/sheet to finally move the victims - but taking that away with him - i.e. removing any final DNA. JMO

IIRC, immobilizing victims was a technique used by Milat. At least 1 of his victims was reported to have been stabbed in the back of the neck, rendering them paralysed from the neck down but still conscious & very much alive

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[petedavo.au]

Previously posted by Sutton deserves another read

• https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjd4fs15qc...rdeal.pdf?dl=0​
  
  
  

Couldn't open it.
If it's in regards to the Statutory Declaration by a Mr Geoff Gerald Atkins, then I'd be skeptical of the veracity of any of it, as there is much witness testimony that directly contradicts the timing and locations presented in that Stat Dec which indicates that neither the accused, the victims, nor even Mr Atkins were at the Barrow Creek Hotel on 14/7/2001. IMO

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[Annalise]

Hi everyone - did Telstra have places where the cars and vans could be washed/cleaned by staff? Did they refuel at normal garages? I'm thinking along the lines of a place where CSK could clean victims and vehicles. MOO

 

[petedavo.au]

Hi everyone - did Telstra have places where the cars and vans could be washed/cleaned by staff? Did they refuel at normal garages? I'm thinking along the lines of a place where CSK could clean victims and vehicles. MOO

138 Kewdale Rd. Kewdale. Telstra Complex

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