Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[CSK?]

I think if you edit out the 'snuff film' stuff (although it could be possible) and a few other small pieces, that Droc has a fairly convincing story, very interesting to say the least. That is the extent of my feedback for now, I need some time to digest this all.

appreciate the posts Bart, thanks a lot.

 

[papertrail]

If the WA police do have the forensic tapes from JR's site, as was mentioned in Marshall's book of errors, and in the Postnewspaper recently -- could it be the upholstery fibres (detailed in the Post) were actually obtained from the other clothing and shoes found at JR's site and not from JR's body ? I've posted that news article that mentioned this find ages ago -- I have attached another copy.

 

[papertrail]

2001 news article detailing Noel Coward's contact with the WA police re 'Mr T". Also mentions a prostitute named "Genevieve".

 

[J35]

2. If he (LW) was ruled out sometime before 2008 (by DNA) then why mention MAP and Sexual Pervert on CIA show? Surely they just DNA compared them and ruled them out?

Maybe the police did compare them, but their DNA profiles could not be excluded and, in the hope of gaining information to help the investigation into the pair, Macro/Wapol used the doco to get public help. A tip off to the effect of "Yes, I saw that keyring in MAP's car the day after" or something similar. This is assuming that Macro even had probable cause to take their DNA (without consent) in the first place.

 

[Elwood_1]

If the WA police do have the forensic tapes from JR's site, as was mentioned in Marshall's book of errors, and in the Postnewspaper recently -- could it be the upholstery fibres (detailed in the Post) were actually obtained from the other clothing and shoes found at JR's site and not from JR's body ? I've posted that news article that mentioned this find ages ago -- I have attached another copy.

Like I said earlier, if you contaminate the scene with false forensic evidence you can keep the police running around in circles for years looking for a ghost. IMHO if the bodies were found the offender wanted them found. There are safe dump sites quite close to the city that could have been used where no forensic evidence could have been able to have been recovered even if the body was.

Read some of the Amanda Knox investigation documents to see how unreliable forensics can be. That investigation was a total farce also. If the CSK offender was smart, forensics will not solve this. 20 years down the track that would seem to be the case.

 

[Elwood_1]

2001 news article detailing Noel Coward's contact with the WA police re 'Mr T". Also mentions a prostitute named "Genevieve".

I wonder if Ian Moone could offer some insight as to who the user profile at the end of the article might belong to. It sounds a lot like someone who he has discussed on here. I wonder what that is all about.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Maybe the police did compare them, but their DNA profiles could not be excluded and, in the hope of gaining information to help the investigation into the pair, Macro/Wapol used the doco to get public help. A tip off to the effect of "Yes, I saw that keyring in MAP's car the day after" or something similar. This is assuming that Macro even had probable cause to take their DNA (without consent) in the first place.

But they were allegedly able to match CG DNA with Karra DNA meaning they must have had a full profile, if not very close.

Either;

They had a full or near enough full profile to determine Karra was the CSK and therefore had no reason to mention MAP and sexual pervert on CIA

or

They didn't have enough DNA to rule out MAP and Sexual Pervert so therefore didn't have enough DNA to match Karra to CSK.



Something in BC's story doesn't add up. Could just be mistakes in journalism. Could also be that it's not true.

 

[Sutton]

...So having read all the forums and in particular the Bigfooty CSK threads, I can't quite understand why there is the need to dismiss the "ramblings" of Droc when the way I see it is that he might just know what had happened and has some very valid reasons for wanting justice.

Honestly is there something I am missing into the information Droc provided and to why it is being totally disregarded. I'm not sure I am missing anything (maybe DNA has disproved his account) but everyone is so convinced he was just rambling and here is my argument against that.

- He passed away a few months after trying desperately to tell his story. I mean was this a final effort to clear his conscious because that is what he was implying and I found what he was saying to be both honest (for example his admission of misdemeanors) and knowledgeable. If you have seen his wake video he is talked about in a very respectable/loving way by some pretty high up people who knew him...not quite the rambling, delusional person some try to make out but they say he was very clever and charismatic.

- He went to a substantial effort over a long period of time to try to provide the investigation with information and felt he was ignored by a corrupt and incompetent force. He uploaded a number of formal documents to Bigfooty that describe in great detail alot of interesting information. IMO you don't go to those extents if you are lying or clearly wrong and he was adamant he was right and it was covered up http://claremontserialmurders.blogspot.com.au/p/information-on-former-fremantle-swan.html
...
- His account of Taxi Tony makes alot of sense when you examine it against the details of the case. Sure maybe snuff movies was far fetched but then again no-one can say for sure that hasn't happened. I would love to see that text he said he received from "Michelle" but it is fact that Taxi Tony and Droc fraternised with prostitutes and I know a few personally from my years working around Perth and they usually know alot of interesting disturbing stories you know from being in the loop and all.

- Droc provided many examples which in my mind would withstand a great deal of scrutiny and would be difficult to make up or be wrong about. For example, his story about the body in the cellar and the unknown person who was asking for access to the cellar before it was built over. His friendship with Michelle cannot simply be made up and what he knew about her could easily be disproved if the effort was made to do so.
...
So yeah I would like to know why Droc's story has no credence here. Does anyone know if Taxi Tony or Michelle were ever seriously considered in the investigation.

Snipped a bit for space. I'm happy to consider the TT argument.

IMO, your argument only supports that Droc was not lying. He seems to have really believed what he was saying. And maybe he was right. But there isn't much evidence to support his beliefs.

Who knows what Michelle and TT were telling him? The asking to look in the cellar story really didn't make much sense to me. I don't think he was lying, but I think he may have understood things differently than other people.

Just MO. I'd love to see outside support that TT was involved. I'd love to hear from Michelle or Genevieve or anyone else mentioned.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

I'm sorry if I've seemed to have hijacked and derailed the thread but I really think Droc deserves some serious consideration. I'm not sure how I can champion his cause as no new thoughts will be coming from Droc but all I know is that his information is simply to damning to have been forgotten which ever since his last post on Bigfooty on March the 18th of last year it seems to have.

I'm a bit busy at the moment so I'll try to keep this short (my head is also swimming again in this case) and get around to it later but if anyone wants some "light" reading they can start with the following page on bigfooty when Droc was invited onto the board.

I got around to speed reading re-reviewing yesterday as there is simply so much information but if you go in and leave any skepticism behind you will get a good picture of the story....thanks for the summary Bartholemeus you alerted me to a few things I had missed which only strengthens my opinions on this. I'm sure you will agree the information and trying to organise it is a major head **** and you can see Droc had the same problem and he didnt approach it the right way from time to time with his impatience.

Trying to articulate your thoughts on an internet forum to unknown people is difficult at the best of times and you can see he was questioning the point of even doing it....and with good reason in the end look at how it ended...noone followed it up I just really hope the police are

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/claremont-serial-killings.985161/page-39


I have attached every file he uploaded to Bigfooty except for the royal commission one which I must have run out of space for. These can still be found and make for some very interesting reading. I find it amazing the lengths and the risks he took to provide this information to a wide range of people heavily involved in the case....all over such a long period of time and the reasons for him being dismissed frankly dumbfound me.

[video=youtube;o632_2xAtzo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o632_2xAtzo[/video]

I think this video is very important to get a feel of who Droc was and the high regard he is held in, the efforts these people went to to help him and how the changes he made to his life effected people. He became a real social warrior (ie his environmental causes while in prison) and I think this is very relevant to the CSK case.

Do a search on Christabel Chamarette and thanks Bartholemeus for the link to this. I figured out who the little old grey haired lady was when I watched the video last year but I hadn't connected her to writing a letter to the commission back in early 2000. I will always wonder why such an influential person hasn't followed through on Drocs information and it makes me wonder what the hell is going on with this corrupted case....something beyond my comprehension.

Elastic I think your following comment and the other ones from Barth and papertrail are very important:

"I highly doubt TT ane co would have sat idly by whilst Noel aka Droc served up a shitstorm smearing their identities all over some of the most popular forums in Australia. Its highly likely they caught on to the forum/thread, created accounts, and challenged Drocs account of events. I know I certainly would, even anonymously to discredit someone."

14. Droc claims TT has never said a word to him about the public allegations. No "take that blog down or I'll sue you for all the money you don't have" or "stop accusing me, I have nothing to do with it".

2001 news article detailing Noel Coward's contact with the WA police re 'Mr T". Also mentions a prostitute named "Genevieve".



While I'm not so sure anyone tried to derail Drocs information as I couldn't see any evidence of that (despite there being a few new accounts from the Fremantle area) I cant quite understand how Taxi Tony, who I have to say is obviously very profficent with technology and the internet, and after reading the only words I've heard from him in the papertrail article hasn't confrontred the fact his name is being thrown around as a serial killer.

You cant tell me he wouldn't know and if it was me I would have been on there, or here, saying "look you c****s this isnt me so *advertiser censored** off". Papertrails article suggested that back in 2001 he was going to sue over this slanderous suggestion but 15 years later and despite it being dragged back up in 2011 he hasnt even tried to refute it.

So look its hard to articulate all this information, there are just too many tentacles in this case to fully cover and express logical thought on an internet forum. I really believe the corruption in this case is at another level that I will never understand...the world is full of corruption and entire groups of people do amazing things to benefit themselves or hide unsavoury actions so who's to really know what is going on with this case and for what reason. My head hurts even thinking about the *advertiser censored**** up world we live in.

Sutton there isnt much evidence to support Droc's thoughts but what was he supposed to do and he supplied what he could and was ignored with documenst being lost etc. How frustating would that be. Thats probably why its hard to charge someone based on something that happened 20 years ago and what was either corrupt or botched back then.

I think the alibi TT provided was obviously very weak and he got away with the police not seriously following it up properly. I mean really how easy are alibis to make up at any time and that drunk guy was a bad one but the reason given from the commission was the 1 alibi excludes him from all 3 murders. Thats seriously pathetic.

Michelle is the key here but who is ever going to track her down. I must admit it would of been sensible of Droc to provide more information or evidence of what she had written to him. He tried to provide a case by supplying a stat dec about conversations with TT but really what sort of hard evidence was he supposed to find. TT was in Claremont and he has conflicting stories on that and Droc feels that he proved that.

The case was always based around a taxi driver and most probably an accomplice and he provided that and a very strong story it was too with many strands that in my opinion and with much thought fit together very convincingly. Not sure how you prove it though. I would love to get the person who knows something about something at the very least, who funnily enough is in what seems to be easy reach down there in Freo and put pinchers on his nipples and get him to tell everyone whats going on.

What has made my mind up is the lengths Droc has gone to keep on this case as can be seen in the bigfooty posts and his 80 page file and despite it not being evidence on TT it sure says alot. No intelligent man would keep harrasing what he thought was a corrupt instituiton for no reason, or someone who is most probably dangerous, and he made it clear he didn't care about the repercussions...who knows it may have cost him his life.

I think this case is close to being solved as has been the whisper and in my gut I feel something along that way as well. I wonder if the unusual timing of the press releases last month had anything to do with that preperation. Again sorry for the hijacking in such a tunnel vision way but I just cant get around the fact that Droc is never discussed and is often regarded as not worthy of being discussed.

I'd be very interested to discuss it once everyone has thought about it.

 

[papertrail]

Like I said earlier, if you contaminate the scene with false forensic evidence you can keep the police running around in circles for years looking for a ghost. IMHO if the bodies were found the offender wanted them found. There are safe dump sites quite close to the city that could have been used where no forensic evidence could have been able to have been recovered even if the body was.

Read some of the Amanda Knox investigation documents to see how unreliable forensics can be. That investigation was a total farce also. If the CSK offender was smart, forensics will not solve this. 20 years down the track that would seem to be the case.

Yep totally agree with your sentiments re the possibility for the forensics to be totally 'set up' by the perp/s. Given the girls were found in situations that also formed the pattern that too shows that the perp/s set up everything.

I do wonder however, who belonged to the clothes and shoes located at JR's site. Could there have been clothes from the Rowe Park / Karrakatta rape victim -- she fled naked to the hospital in Monash Avenue ? I also wonder about the clothes at JR's site, if there was any bodily fluids found ?

 

[papertrail]

Iknowwhatyoudid or Bartholemeus -- do you have any ideas about who had 'invited' Droc to blog on the Bigfooty forum ? Sounds strange to me that someone would be 'invited'; sounds to me that someone may have found is original (personal) blog (which I have now found and read) and then made contact with him and suggested to him he might want to use Bigfooty. Or could it be that the person who 'invited' had gotten all the info from Droc and then blogged it on Bigfooty, standing in for Droc ?

 

[papertrail]

I personally 'feel' that Droc may have jumped a million miles to form his own false conclusion about TT -- and the initial impetus and push for Droc to jump the million miles was the alleged comment by TT in Droc's account, that TT was not keen to have his DNA taken and to front up to the licensing station to have his taxi checked. This may have been because TT may have had a prior criminal conviction of some sort, and he (TT) realized that the Taxi Control Board and WA police where investigating the backgrounds of all taxi drivers; and those found with criminal convictions would be ousted from the taxi / transport industry. I note that TT exited as a taxi driver not long afterwards --- that is the background checks and this may or may not be as a consequence of the checks.

 

[silver tongue]

droc was a conman\criminal
he was obviously a compulsive lier and attention seeker. ive seen this type of crim before. in his pathetic existance he is nobody never achieved anything and was going nowere, bring on CSK bull.... story and bingo hes somebody.
so an international gang was buying snuff movies thats why these girls were murdered?
i can assure you droc was a compulsive lier he probably believed or convinced himself that what he had made up in his head was true, blearing the lines between reality and fantasy, jail can do strange things to a persons mind, plus i dont think he was a full squid to start with anyway

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Iknowwhatyoudid or Bartholemeus -- do you have any ideas about who had 'invited' Droc to blog on the Bigfooty forum ? Sounds strange to me that someone would be 'invited'; sounds to me that someone may have found is original (personal) blog (which I have now found and read) and then made contact with him and suggested to him he might want to use Bigfooty. Or could it be that the person who 'invited' had gotten all the info from Droc and then blogged it on Bigfooty, standing in for Droc ?

I think its pretty straightforward. the username Paco Lenesta who claimed to have started the thread was in a discussion about TT and as the blog is pretty to easy find he asked if anyone thought it worthwhile to invite him. Someone else for *advertiser censored* and giggles probably invited Droc.

I'f your trying to say someone was typing all the info on Droc's behalf then I would have to say 100% not a chance, that was all Droc. As to why he was trying to convince people on an internet forum I have no idea but he where else was he supposed to go the investigation didn't want to know him.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

droc was a conman\criminal
he was obviously a compulsive lier and attention seeker. ive seen this type of crim before. in his pathetic existance he is nobody never achieved anything and was going nowere, bring on CSK bull.... story and bingo hes somebody.
so an international gang was buying snuff movies thats why these girls were murdered?
i can assure you droc was a compulsive lier he probably believed or convinced himself that what he had made up in his head was true, blearing the lines between reality and fantasy, jail can do strange things to a persons mind, plus i dont think he was a full squid to start with anyway

Sorry to be so blunt but what a load of rubbish.

So an international gang was buying snuff movies....well its funny that a certain senator/leading psychologist wrote to the Commissioner of police on behalf of Droc and used those exact same words in the letter. very interesting she and a leading university professor would also use that tact. Not saying snuff movies are a "thing" but remember that kidnap/rape videos in some cultures are very prevalent. Some people love some pretty sick stuff.

I think the reasons he went to jail were not as serious as you would think and they do not make him the hard core crim you are claiming. The people discussing their relationship with him seem to think he was worth having around in their lives and around their children...I would say they know him better than you just for starters.

Someone with a pathetic existence I wouldn't have thought would waste a big part of their lives trying to convince an investigation of pure ****. I never knew the man but my perception of him is the reverse of yours and that's kind of strange.

 

[papertrail]

I note from reading the Noel Coward documents, that nowhere has he mentioned what make and model of taxi that TT drove. This was perhaps the crucial point taken into account for Macro not conducting further investigations into Coward's allegations about TT.

It would be interesting to know what make and model and sedan / station wagon of taxi that TT drove ? Didn't I read somewhere that the preferred 'brand' for taxis was Ford due to the ease of maintenance servicing ? Did Gajewski own the taxi or was he a contracted driver ? Details in the WA Police representative's replies to Coward also state that TT was not driving taxis at the time of SS's disappearance.

If the detail of suspect vehicle (ie Holden Commodore VS Series 1 station wagon) released by the Postnewspaper is indeed correct (keeping in mind this suspect vehicle is allegedly connected with JR), then that may have been what ruled out Coward's allegation/s.

I note Coward states that TT was allegedly driving the 'drunk passenger' to Subiaco -- where (exact location / street) did he pick up this passenger -- ie Bay View Terrace -- what location -- closer to Stirling Highway or closer to Gugeri Street ? Did he commence driving to Subiaco along Stirling or Gugeri ? Whatever way, Subiaco is in the totally opposite direction to that which Ciara Glennon was walking towards - - Mosman Park. There was no evidence that Ciara was 'looking for a taxi' as stated by Coward.

 

[papertrail]

where in the Marshall book of errors does it mention that Caporn was the WA Police liaison officer to one of the girls' parents ?

Coward also wrote "I became concerned and so delivered a copy of my file to one of the fathers of the missing girls". The only girl missing is Sarah Spiers. So is this the family that Napper detailed to Marshall -- that she detailed in the book. Napper apparently prepared a comprehensive report for this family ?

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

The last document that Droc uploaded

 

[papertrail]

both Statutory Declarations contain the same spelling mistakes (Gajewski spelled as Gajewsky and until as untill) -- this shows me that one person prepared both Stat Decs. There is NO date on the Stat Dec signed by Coward.

 

[papertrail]

A story by Droc. Isn't it interesting that his signature name Droc is the pronunciation of his real surname backwards Coward to Drawoc to Droc. . And also his first name he used backwards as well Noel to Leon.

Very interesting and poignant read. Don't consider this guy lacked any mental facilities at all.

Gino's Cafe -- a great place to hang out.

http://www.writerscafe.org/writing/Drawoc/1451900/