Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Elwood_1]

Sounds like you've got all the evidence sorted. I wonder if the upholstery fibres could have been collected (by the perp) from a vehicle in a used car yard or whilst he took the vehicle for a test drive -- how about that for an idea ?

I had exactly those thoughts. Hire car. Wreckers. Whatever.

 

[papertrail]

I asked & was told, nope, no clothes were left at another victims locality. I am not saying who said that. No point asking.

I don't for a nanosecond believe anyone from WA Police would be stupid enough to tell you the truth. I'm not interested in asking because I know you would not have been told the facts of the case. And I do not believe the press, at the time in 1996, would have pulled information out of their behinds and then had the lead investigator confirm it.

 

[Parkie]

Papertrail. Listen up. Someone on here and / or on BF mentioned items being moved on & left at another locale. I asked if this was true & they said nope. That`s it! Not much else I can say. They wouldn`t tell me how many suspects they had. But with the DNA thing they would 'most likely' have a lot less now. They wouldn`t tell me what printing components they were looking for either.

 

[papertrail]

Papertrail. Listen up. Someone on here and / or on BF mentioned items being moved on & left at another locale. I asked if this was true & they said nope. That`s it! Not much else I can say. They wouldn`t tell me how many suspects they had. But with the DNA thing they would 'most likely' have a lot less now. They wouldn`t tell me what printing components they were looking for either.

Are you trying to say that someone on Websleuths and Bigfooty told you 'mentioned items being moved on and left at another locale" -- I am not saying that the clothing items and shoes left at the JR disposal site were moved on from anywhere. It is detailed in a newspaper article a couple of days after JR's remains were located -- read the article I have posted on WS twice now. I have been unable to find any further reference to these clothing articles / shoes and to me that says WA police have decided to keep that off limits for further public discussion by the press.

Unless the person / s who you say told you something can provide proof of how they know it -- then why state it as fact when you have no proof ?

 

[papertrail]

Papertrail. Listen up. Someone on here and / or on BF mentioned items being moved on & left at another locale. I asked if this was true & they said nope. That`s it! Not much else I can say. They wouldn`t tell me how many suspects they had. But with the DNA thing they would 'most likely' have a lot less now. They wouldn`t tell me what printing components they were looking for either.

Who is 'they' with reference to the printing components -- see bolded section in quote above.

I find it very interesting that electronic components are screen printed. I do wonder what kind of ink / dye is used for that type of screen printing ?

 

[Parkie]

They being the detectives. I asked them what were they looking for re screen printing item/s & they wouldn`t say. Not surprised at that one.

Now someone made it appear in their comment that clothing was moved from 1 spot where someone was found to another. I am not going to look back to try to find it. Anyways I asked the D`s if this happened & they said no. There, I have said it again for you <modsnip>.

 

[Bartholemeus]

In the video they all appeared to be extremely lower class individuals judging by their language and demeanor. Pardon me for being judgemental. Gypsies in my experience have been involved in some very disturbing acts. As have many other groups.

Some of them are well educated. Crystabelle is a lawyer I think and one other guy is a university lecturer. They're hardly gypsies or unsavoury types. As far as i can tell most of them are from a church group.

Jusgemental is fine just that you're way off the mark.

 

[Sutton]

...I would love to get the person who knows something about something at the very least, who funnily enough is in what seems to be easy reach down there in Freo and put pinchers on his nipples and get him to tell everyone whats going on.
...

Snipped and BBM. You want to apply electric voltage to a man's nipples based on your suspicions?

...I think the reasons he went to jail were not as serious as you would think and they do not make him the hard core crim you are claiming...

Snipped. We don't know all of his charges, but Droc was charged with carnal knowledge. Isn't that related to sexual knowledge of a child by an adult?

-------

The idea of TT (or any former taxi driver) being the CSK is believable. If Droc said he knew a former taxi driver who had a lot of anger toward women, who lied about his whereabouts in the key nights, who took candid photos, I'd be interested. I could even buy into the snuff film aspect.

It's the details that I find difficult to believe. Numerous prostitutes were involved (Michelle, Genevieve, others) and other men were involved. And the motive Droc gave isn't right. So it's a hatred of 'rich little daddy's brats' and a desire for profit?

Also, they would have needed a travel agent with all the going over seas and traveling around required. Idk if y'all have seen TT's social media, but he's more of a 'free spirit' than the organized individual required to pull off the crimes.

 

[Sutton]

Does anyone know how Droc died?

The Post revealed on 03/20/2015, police believe the girls were all taken in a blitz attack. Droc's last post was on 03/18/2015. He died in April.

We never got to hear his response to the article.

It's hard to read how mean people were to him on BF. Even though I don't subscribe to his theory, I think he really believed it.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Snipped and BBM. You want to apply electric voltage to a man's nipples based on your suspicions?

Yeah sure why not even though I was kind off joking. When legal ways of persuasion have no effect of gathering information you should take the law into your own hands. I would love to ask him some questions under "duress". the guy creeps me out and I seriously think he has a dark past.

Droc from what I remember has aboriginal blood and as bad as it sounds aboriginals and carnal knowledge is a touchy cultural subject. and as crude as this sounds, and this is coming from somebody with a couple of daughters, "she looked so much older than 15 your honour". I don't mean to make light of it but from memory when I looked into it last year it wasn't as bad as it sounded and he admitted openly on Bigfooty.

There is a document on the web that says he received 5 years for counterfeiting $500 worth of 50 dollar notes. Funnily enough the judge was amazed with his intelligence and Claribel talks about this in the video as well.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=MZIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5046,3991894&hl=en

Your right with the details. I'm sure if you go over it with a fine tooth comb there would be many inconstincies. I have only been concerned with the macro while all you guys on the board seem to be excellent with the micro so thats all I can say. However I do think that such a complicated, horrible case has so many scenarios that who knows what the real story could be.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Does anyone know how Droc died?

His last two weeks is explained in the wake video near the end somewhere where one of the ladies spent the last two weeks of his life with Droc taking him to specialists for I think I recall it being heart problems.

Which might also mean that no hanky panky from either TT or some corrupt police officers ever took place.....but then again i don't know how the world works.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Who are the 'others' ? Email exchanges prove nothing. Could be one person with multi personalities and email addresses.

I don't feel the need to prove anything here. Someone wanted some clarification, I provided it. If you choose to think I have anything to gain to making something like that up then I'm comfortable with that. Some people here have credibility, others don't.

 

[silver tongue]

reg droc
iknowwhatyoudid are you one of the church group that assisted droc ? i feel your interest in droc is more than that of an idle observer
wasnt droc asked to supply DNA but refused? id say TT supplied his

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

reg droc
iknowwhatyoudid are you one of the church group that assisted droc ? i feel your interest in droc is more than that of an idle observer
wasnt droc asked to supply DNA but refused? id say TT supplied his

No not at all. I haven't lived in WA since around 2007 and I hate religion. I don't know anybody involved in this at all.

I've always used Bigfooty to read up on my footy news and unfortunately didn't realise there was a CSK thread until just after Droc had stopped posting. I would have suggested he meet up with a few of the people on there to discuss some kind of action plan (as he was willing to) and that obviously never happened.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/bc48350f2d83ae30f2f574c948331e82

That article explains his "trust" issues with the police and giving them his DNA. I think he had a good reason to have trust issues considering his past experiences with the legal system and the way the Taskforce handled his information.

From what I can make out TT provided his saliva along with the other taxi driver and I must say that considering the corruption/incompetence of the case that doesn't mean a thing. Not sure if he was required to provide it in 2011 but you would certainly hope so.

This is exactly what I want to know. If he did supply his DNA and he has been cleared in that regard than how come no-one is coming out to say this. If it was me who was being discussed as a serial killer both in the media and these forums I would put proof of my innocence up in flashing lights.

As I say something just isn't right.

 

[papertrail]

oooh everyone's a bit quiet !

Anyone on here a guru at researching family trees ? <modsnip>
Found someone 'older' in Cottesloe with surname Williams that used to be a 'master printer - need to trace to see if there is a connection.

 

[silver tongue]

did the CSK target claremont or was he cruising between perth and freo?
there is a perception that the CSK was targeting rich well healed girls from the claremont area
it is possible that this is not the case, he could of been stalking any number of bars\clubs in the metro area looking for victims. maybe the opportunity presented its self in claremont 3 times with these girls all being alone and easy targets, if he was cruising around claremont all night looking for a potential victim there is a big chance he would of been spotted, did these 3 girls all wonder out on to stirling hwy and catch the eye of the killer as he headed from say freo to perth in his hunt for victims , the fact that they were all in claremont could be put down to opportunity rather than a grudge

 

[Sutton]

did the CSK target claremont or was he cruising between perth and freo?
there is a perception that the CSK was targeting rich well healed girls from the claremont area
it is possible that this is not the case, he could of been stalking any number of bars\clubs in the metro area looking for victims. maybe the opportunity presented its self in claremont 3 times with these girls all being alone and easy targets, if he was cruising around claremont all night looking for a potential victim there is a big chance he would of been spotted, did these 3 girls all wonder out on to stirling hwy and catch the eye of the killer as he headed from say freo to perth in his hunt for victims , the fact that they were all in claremont could be put down to opportunity rather than a grudge

There are other missing women and unexplained deaths. Even if he had a certain type, didn't the girls who went to Conti, CBV, and OBH go other places as well? Couldn't he have found his preferred victim type outside of this area?

 

[Sutton]

While it is slow I will post what I learned about Karen Skinner's disappearance.

In thread 3 we discussed missing and murdered women from WA. The Schramm review advised Macro to consider 16 other women as possibly being related. There was a little bit of back and forth on the thread about the current status of Karen Skinner.

Karen Skinner went missing from Kardinya, WA in 1995. She was 20 years old. Ms. Skinner's disappearance was featured in a 2003 issue of Woman's Day, and on an Australia Federal Police missing persons' poster in 2010, along with an age progression. But she was not listed on the AFP missing persons' site (at the time of the thread 3 discussion). I had been trying to find out the circumstances of her disappearance and an update for some time.

The AFP missing persons' poster listed an email address, so I contacted them and asked if she was still missing. They directed me to the WA Police, Missing Persons Unit.

I emailed the WA police and asked if Ms. Skinner was still missing. A constable replied, requesting my personal information. I supplied this, and was told that information regarding missing persons is only provided to next of kin. The constable did say there is probably a reason she is not on the website anymore.

An odd policy, but maybe there is a reason. I am grateful he tried to answer my question.

Shortly after this happened I was blocked from accessing the privately owned Australian Missing Persons Register (not the AFP missing persons site). I had visited this website regularly for at least two years and had never had a problem before. I cannot imagine this was related to my inquiry--I guess it's just a weird coincidence? I emailed the woman who runs the private website and she was very nice, and did try to help me. I never heard back from her, but I was finally able to access the website last week, so the problem seems to be fixed.

I thought y'all might like to know about Karen Skinner. It doesn't seem related, IMO. I have the Women's Day article and copies of my emails (personal info removed, no other info was changed) linked below.

I did consider that Ms. Skinner might be in some type of government protection program. That is why I did not post this to WS when I received the reply from WA Police (an extreme thought, but her disappearance was extreme). However, the AFP site has been updated and the 2010 poster is now stamped 'LOCATED' over Karen's photo. So it should be fine to post it.

End result: Karen Skinner is no longer missing. According to the WA cemeteries board, she wasn't buried in WA. Hopefully that means she is alive somewhere.

Woman's Day article, missing posters and email exchange:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8nybsq35vhazv1d/AACnzSfLEITTn420HS9-dS9wa?dl=0

AFP site:
http://www.missingpersons.gov.au/missing-persons/profiles

AMPR (non-government site dedicated to missing persons):
http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com

 

[Laymaker]

DNA

Warrants for DNA in Australia
Regarding the official rules for obtaining a warrant for DNA in Australia... It seems that the police in Australia can compel you to provide DNA if they "believe" you have committed a serious crime. Wow... This surprises me as an American. This means that the WAPOL warrant for DNA from Weygers is rather insignificant in terms of discerning whether WAPOL actually had DNA from the CSK.

http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/Infor...ages/DNAsamplesandidentifyinginformation.aspx

DNA and LW
WAPOL pursued LW for many years. This is a reasonable challenge to the idea that WAPOL has DNA evidence. I think the most likely explanation is that WAPOL may only have DNA from Karrakatta and the forensic link to Karrakatta wasn&#8217;t made until 2008. It has been reported and suggested that LW was cleared around this time&#8230; Maybe the partial or major reason WAPOL took so long to discover the Karrakatta link is because the DNA from that scene didn&#8217;t match LW and they were convinced that he was the CSK.

Importance of the possible partial DNA match
What are the probabilities associated with each level of DNA sample completeness?

Per J35: In the USA, A full dna profile consists of 13 loci (STRs) or 26 alleles, with 15 or more alleles being cause for familial DNA testing.

1. Is there a chart that shows the probability of any random individual matching a certain number of alleles to a given DNA sample?

2. How many alleles are available in most partial DNA samples and what is the normal range and variance of this number in available historic cases? Is it common for a 'partial DNA sample' to include 6 alleles? Would a 2-allele sample even be called a partial or would that just be thrown out?

If we assume the police have an average-sized partial DNA match then maybe we can develop a rough understanding of how significant that kind of DNA evidence would be as a tool for the investigation. If a common partial DNA sample is 6 alleles and this is really only useful for eliminating 40% of the male population, that would be much less significant than the normal layman's conception of the influence of DNA evidence on an investigation.


Connected Crimes

These are ordered by probability of connection, but it may be just as well to think about the chronology. I think Papertrail had a good post about this located at this link: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia-2/page57

1. Karrakatta Cemetary
Date: 1994, February 12, Saturday
Abduction location: Gugeri St, Rowe Park
Rape location: Karrakatta Cemetary
Tools: Van, bindings, blindfold
Distance from nearest other victim: ?
Probability of connection: 90%. Bret Christian reported a 'forensic link' had convinced police of the connection. The timing, locations, victim profile and major details of the MO fit well with this being either earlier in the series or a precursor crime while the CSK was still in a less-developed stage of his criminality.
Notes: Had been to Club Bayview
Biggest clues/takeaways from incident: Probable DNA, description of car (van), suspect is probably familiar with cemetery, uses ligatures, suspect &#8220;left her for dead&#8221; but in a place where the body would be found so he must not have planned to revisit it. Must have been left out of expediency, carelessness, or some other reason.
Questions: How did he hurt her? What kind of weapon/strike was used?

2. 'Bashing' behind Club Bayview
Date: 1996, March 3, Sunday
Attack location: Church Lane, behind Club Bayview
Tools: None that were reported
Distance from nearest other victim: 1 mile
Witness description: Unknown to me
Probability of connection: 75%.
Notes: Had been to Club Bayview. Head bashed 6 times into wall, skirt ripped off.
Biggest clues/takeaways: suspect isn&#8217;t an expert at violence, suspect is reckless, improvises.

3. Drunk teenage girl who recently came forward (published in The Post)
Date: 1991 ("5 years before first known CSK victim")
Abduction location: Carpark opposite the Cottesloe Hotel
Attempted rape location: Abandoned Lakeway drive-in theater in Swanbourne
Tools: Station wagon
Distance from nearest other victim: ?
Witness description: hard whiskers, felt older than the men that she had been with, "must have been sat least 30"
Probability of connection: 50%. This would be higher except the girl was so vulnerable that I feel she could have attracted any opportunistic sexually-driven man who happened to see her. It was also so many years before the canonical 3 victims and the chances of a connection decrease with each year of separation. I say that she was vulnerable because she was in her late teens, wearing a tight top and tight short skirt and was left in a parking lot by her friends in a clubbing area since she was too drunk to function. She did say "he must have been watching me" and this was in a drinking scene in Claremont which fits the CSK profile.
Notes: She says at one point in the attempted rape "he attempted to pull down my skirt" which does not necessarily match what we know about LW's sexual proclivities. She escapes his grasp twice which does not fit my conception of a martial artist attacker. There is no mention of violence other than the implication that he was controlling her movement, so it seems that at least in this stage of the attack he was not eager to cause non-sexual physical harm. It surprises me that the attacker didn&#8217;t simply hit her in the face or knock her out to coerce compliance.
Biggest clues/takeaways: Victim gave good witness description details that he had hard whiskers (seemed older i.e. 30+) and that he groped her *advertiser censored* while she was passed out
Questions: Is the Cottesloe Hotel anything like the Claremont club scene?

4. Canonical Victim #1 Sarah Spiers
Date: 1996, January 27, Saturday
Abduction site:
Dump site:
Distance from nearest other victim: 1 mile
Notes: Had been to Club Bayview

5. Canonical Victim #2 Jane Rimmer
Date: 1996, June 9, Sunday
Abduction site:
Dump site: Bush land, Woolcoot Rd, Wellard
Distance from nearest other victim: 1 mile
Notes: Supposedly had been to Club Bayview but not certain to me.

6. Canonical Victim #3 Ciara Glennon
Date: 1997, March 14/15, Friday/Saturday
Abduction site:
Dump site: Track in the scrub, Pipidinny Rd, Eglington
Distance from nearest other victim: 1 mile
Notes: Bart asked, "did she walk by Club Bayview?"

There is a gap in these dates: 1992-1993. I think the killer was active during this period and I want to focus on possible connected crimes from that time. I also think 1994-1995 contains more of his crimes as he was obviously accelerating at that point.


Mechanics of the Crimes

Method of abduction: blitz attack, consensual pickup, taxi or combination
I posted my original case theory before the media announced that WAPOL has supposedly come to the conclusion that the method of abduction was via blitz attacks. After this announcement and the connection to Karrakatta I now think that the blitz attack was the most likely method. It matches the MO from Karrakatta and the police seem to have other reasons to believe in this theory as well.

How did the CSK setup for the blitz attack
How long did he wait outside his car?
Where was he parked in each case?
Did he drive there before that night and prep the spot?
What weapon or physical strike did he use?
How did he minimize the sound?

Dump Sites
How were they chosen?
Were they deliberate?
Why weren't they buried?
Do you think the killer visited the sites afterwards? Why or why not?

Co-Location of Jane Rimmer (JR) and Sarah Spiers (SS) bodies
Geographic profiling and the Rossmo formula, which is a mathematical approach to deriving a serial killer's home from the sites and correlations of his activities, seem to have real scientific integrity. I would like to understand how frequently a serial killer who dumps victims will dump multiple bodies at the same site and what drives this behavior. I noticed that Papertrail's article in thread #4, post #762 says the following about Jane Rimmer's dump site: "the bush was so thick that officers could not examine the crime scene properly"... Sarah Spiers (SS) was the first body and was never found, so could the killer have taken Jane Rimmer (JR), the second body, to the same area out of a sense of habit, familiarity and confidence?

Could local users please describe the likelihood of a body going unfound for all of these years if it was buried or dumped near the Jane Rimmer dump site?

Does anyone have any knowledge of the frequency by which killers dump multiple bodies at the same dump site? Obviously we have to adjust the frequency calculation to take into account the idea that a killer would not dump another body at a previous dumpsite once that dumpsite has been discovered.

POI Notes

Note: I think we probably would be better off focusing on the evidence, theories, etc instead of POIs.

Judo Man (JM) and the officially named suspect who practiced martial arts
There is a real possibility that Judo Man (JM) could know who was being referred to in the CIA documentary. According to posts here from users who have seen his Facebook:

- JM was in tournaments as early as 22, and likely was involved in martial arts in the ten years leading up to the murders
- The suspect named in the CIA documentary was 34 years old when JM was 34-36 (depending on interpretation)
- They were both in Perth, at least during the murders. Population in 1996 was 1.3 million.
- The 34-year-old suspect was involved in martial arts to such an extent that he was partially identified by this description
- JM is heavily involved in martial arts as well according to users here who have seen his Facebook
- JM and the suspect are both English
- JM and the suspect were both presumed or confirmed to be near Claremont

I'm not saying JM is the suspect and I'm not saying he knew who was suspected before it was announced, but there is at least a reasonable chance that he may have been able to figure out who was being referred to after the fact.

I wonder if there is available data from tournaments or other rosters related to martial arts from 1994-1997 that would have had 34-year-old martial artists on them.

Martial Arts Practitioner
I don't see how someone who practiced martial arts or Judo in particular could have been responsible for the 1991 abduction. Or Karrakatta. Or the failed bashing. Would have to be a terrible 'martial artist'...

From my original post:

Droc (Noel Coward) & TT (Taxi Tony)
- Exhibits all the signs of an unworthy, unreliable attention-seeker
- Matched claims to existing, known details and connected dots with incredible claims that the killers alternately confessed to him, groomed and recruited him, led him to a secret factory lair, etc.
- Offered no unreleased details that were later confirmed by police
- Story makes no sense. Snuff films do not exist. A junkie ring would have been caught.

In favor of Droc:
TT does not seem to dispute the claim that he picked up a fare from Club Bayview on the night of the crimes.
Droc was able to impel two seemingly respectable friends with established backgrounds to advocate for him.

Questions

1. Which other serial killers committed abductions in such close proximity to each other and what did this tell us about the crimes and/or the offender?

2. Which other unsolved (or solved) case do you think is most likely to be connected to the CSK?

3. Why Club Bayview? Is this particularly easy to stalk/access/view?

4. Could someone please clarify which days of the week each victim went out and was abducted? I.e. Did they go out Saturday but technically get abducted on Sunday because it was past midnight?

5. What day was the ' bashing' incident? Does anyone have more information on this crime?

6. Do clubs in Claremont, especially Bayview, usually operate on weekends only, or is there a Thursday night or other night that they are open?

7. How many victims were wearing skirts?

8. What are your biggest takeaways from each crime and each possible connected crime?

 

[Bartholemeus]

3. Why Club Bayview? Is this particularly easy to stalk/access/view?

4. Could someone please clarify which days of the week each victim went out and was abducted? I.e. Did they go out Saturday but technically get abducted on Sunday because it was past midnight?

6. Do clubs in Claremont, especially Bayview, usually operate on weekends only, or is there a Thursday night or other night that they are open?

7. How many victims were wearing skirts?

8. What are your biggest takeaways from each crime and each possible connected crime?

3. Whilst it's an easy club to stalk comparative to other clubs, we have to remember JR either never went their or left nearly as soon as she arrived and CG never went there on that night. For the upmarket suburbs Claremont, Cottesloe, Peppermint Grove, Nedlands and Dalkeith there as really only 1 local nightclub open past 12am and that was CBV. Claremont was the centre of night life for these areas but really only had 2 licenced premises in Claremont centre - Conti and Club. There are/were plenty of other pubs in surrounding areas that were also busy on Fri Sat nights.

4. SS was Australia Day 1996. That was a Friday. She went missing 2am Sat morning. JR went out on a Sat night, went missing just after midnight. CG was a Friday after work and went missing just after midnight.

6. The big nights in Claremont were Thurs, Fri and Sat. Whilst Conti open all week, Thurs, Fri and Sat nights were very busy with the young crowd. CBV I think was only open Fri and Sat nights and was also packed. Both were places to be seen.

7. SS = shorts, JR = Jeans, CG = suit skirt.

8. My biggest takeaway is that there are so many contradictions in available evidence.