Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Frankie1972]

Hang in there, Frankie.

Maybe police got a tip about a white station wagon, but couldn't reveal the source. So they just stretched Frankie's friend's version of the story and claimed he was the source, in order to get the station wagon theory out there. Frankie said they were all pretty drunk that night. It seems like police would not release the white station wagon fact based on an account of three inebriated guys who weren't paying that much attention.

My friend did say to the police about a white station wagon but that was by the brake light.

 

[GreenDevil]

My friend did say to the police about a white station wagon but that was by the brake light.

Tell us what you recall seeing that night Frankie?

 

[elastic]

if you are 100% your mate didn't see a car....

then the CIA doco and that Post article aibout three men seeing a holden, rather than a Ford came out at the same time in 2008

but the Post says the fibers they found on JR were only tested in 2011.

so how did they know it was a Holden and why did they make up that the Holden stopped and was talking to CG? and why only report it 11 years later?

We were actually discussing this some months back, it may have been earlier in this thread, or the previous thread, but Frankie did tell us the car must have been stationary, he said he would have noticed a car going passed him that time of night, and that the friend recognised the brake lights and assumed it was white.

Frankie, did your friend actually see the colour white or just assume?

Billwhiz, Frankie also contacted his friend to rehash his story for us via request on this or the previous thread.

If Frankie is genuine then the Police were spreading misinformation.. If I recall Frankie does not believe his friend saw the Ciara bend down towards a car. Which means it could have been made up.

Was this car with brake lights stationed in a car park bay on the street, or a legally parked part of the street, or was it in theory illegally parked?

 

[elastic]

So let's assume that it's correct that throats were slit;

Where was the kill site? Police have always believed publicly that the girls were killed soon after and close by. I assume the reason is that it would be hard to control the girls all the way to the outside of the metro area.
Strangling makes most sense but there's a strong suggestion throats were cut and this post/sub-thread is a hypothesis that throats were cut.

So where did he do it? He must have had to pull over somewhere.

We know 2 girls were heading west and the driver would have known that. He might have had a pre-determined point to feign running out of petrol or breakdown?

What about JR? Was she heading west? Or did he also have a pre-determined place heading east?

Or did he just wing it? He must have got out of the car and not on a main road.

Did he asks the girls to reach down to the passenger floor and pick up something and then thwap (might submit that new word to Oxford Dictionary) them with some sort of thin pointed instrument?

Where did he do it, and how did he do it without getting much blood in his car?

Ok this needs to be put to bed because without any source this in itself is misinformation.

There is a newspaper article that lists 'strangulation' as the method of killing. Even if that is not a genuine source, it is assumed it was not subjected to WA's media gag orders.. It had an insight into the killings because Ciara Glennons dad spoke to them in detail. He may have tipped the newspaper off.

If lets say that is not a correct method we still know 'washing line' played a crucial role in the abduction.

Bart, can you please list where you got this information from about the victims having their throats cut, you keep broadcasting it like its a fact and hold others to another level when they speculate on their theories based on what we know from the case.

If their necks were cut is this information from Debbie Marshalls book, exclusively?

Strangulation is cleaner, easier to transport, less evidence and fits in with the now known BLITZ ATTACK theory which is from Police developments in the case.

Also you stated that the police believed the girls were killed nearby, i have also heard suggestions that they were killed near the dump site, not at the dump site, so again where do you get this theory from about them being killed close by, from what we know of Karrakatta I wouldnt be surprised if this was the kill site... My opinion.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Ok this needs to be put to bed because without any source this in itself is misinformation.

There is a newspaper article that lists 'strangulation' as the method of killing. Even if that is not a genuine source, it is assumed it was not subjected to WA's media gag orders.. It had an insight into the killings because Ciara Glennons dad spoke to them in detail. He may have tipped the newspaper off.

If lets say that is not a correct method we still know 'washing line' played a crucial role in the abduction.

Bart, can you please list where you got this information from about the victims having their throats cut, you keep broadcasting it like its a fact and hold others to another level when they speculate on their theories based on what we know from the case.

If their necks were cut is this information from Debbie Marshalls book, exclusively?

Strangulation is cleaner, easier to transport, less evidence and fits in with the now known BLITZ ATTACK theory which is from Police developments in the case.

Also you stated that the police believed the girls were killed nearby, i have also heard suggestions that they were killed near the dump site, not at the dump site, so again where do you get this theory from about them being killed close by, from what we know of Karrakatta I wouldnt be surprised if this was the kill site... My opinion.

What is it you don't understand about a hypothetical?

 

[Parkie]

You mention Karrakatta being the inbetween site? What about Point Resolution. Great views, was an old rock quarry. & is relatively quiet. Just a guess, ok.

Re the throat cut theory I think it Was Professor Barclay from the UK who hinted at that. It`s mentioned in Debi Marshalls book.

 

[GreenDevil]

Ok this needs to be put to bed because without any source this in itself is misinformation.

There is a newspaper article that lists 'strangulation' as the method of killing. Even if that is not a genuine source, it is assumed it was not subjected to WA's media gag orders.. It had an insight into the killings because Ciara Glennons dad spoke to them in detail. He may have tipped the newspaper off.

If lets say that is not a correct method we still know 'washing line' played a crucial role in the abduction.

Bart, can you please list where you got this information from about the victims having their throats cut, you keep broadcasting it like its a fact and hold others to another level when they speculate on their theories based on what we know from the case.

If their necks were cut is this information from Debbie Marshalls book, exclusively?

Strangulation is cleaner, easier to transport, less evidence and fits in with the now known BLITZ ATTACK theory which is from Police developments in the case.

Also you stated that the police believed the girls were killed nearby, i have also heard suggestions that they were killed near the dump site, not at the dump site, so again where do you get this theory from about them being killed close by, from what we know of Karrakatta I wouldnt be surprised if this was the kill site... My opinion.

Have you got the source that says washing line played a crucial role in the abductions?

 

[Frankie1972]

Frankie, are you able to contact a mod and become a verified insider? Thank you.

I don't think I'd have the support from the other members

 

[STANDREID]

What articles of clothing were missing from the two women who were found?

 

[Sutton]

What articles of clothing were missing from the two women who were found?

To my knowledge:

From Jane Rimmer: everything, jeans/pants, long-sleeved shirt, jumper/cardigan, undergarments, dark shoes, purse. Her watch was found in grasses near the road close to her disposal site.

From Ciara Glennon: she was still wearing a blouse and skirt, but her suit jacket, shoes, purse, and Claddagh brooch are missing.

That's not official though, maybe someone else has slightly different information

 

[elleAU]

I think it's also important to note (especially for those who are international), that the local rumour mill with regards to this case is, and always has been, c.r.a.z.y. I guess the different comments and opinions that come through these threads are a testament to that. To this day, you can strike up a conversation with random people in Perth about the CSK and you will be met with all sorts of "well I heard", "I know a cop who says..." etc. For example, I have personally been told, in no uncertain terms, "they have their man, they just don't have enough for the charges to stick." I am sure other locals have heard the rumours of injuries sustained by these women also (including one that would immobilise a victim quite quickly, but once again - who knows). It is 20 years on and we still don't know the causes of death. Just more rumours and more speculation. The mystery and secrecy with regards to this case has resulted in so many opinions trying to be passed off as fact (as we see in here unfortunately). IMHO, I agree with others who say that the earliest reports from WAPOL are probably the most reliable, because it wasn't long before everything went very hush hush. The clothing items are a perfect example of this. Anyway, I just wanted to add this for those interstate/international sleuths trying to wade through the information.

 

[Frankie1972]

We were actually discussing this some months back, it may have been earlier in this thread, or the previous thread, but Frankie did tell us the car must have been stationary, he said he would have noticed a car going passed him that time of night, and that the friend recognised the brake lights and assumed it was white.

Frankie, did your friend actually see the colour white or just assume?

Billwhiz, Frankie also contacted his friend to rehash his story for us via request on this or the previous thread.

If Frankie is genuine then the Police were spreading misinformation.. If I recall Frankie does not believe his friend saw the Ciara bend down towards a car. Which means it could have been made up

Was this car with brake lights stationed in a car park bay on the street, or a legally parked part of the street, or was it in theory illegally parked?[/QUOTE
that night when she walked passed us on the other side of the road my friend yelled out to her she was crazy for hitchhiking
and he also said that girl is going to go missing tonight.Then He said he seen some brake lights come on from a car going the same way as CG and he describe the make of the car as a station wagon. He did tell the police a white station wagon.

 

[Laymaker]

Sutton, you say that JR's watch was found a bit away from her body. This is interesting. I would like to see users put forth theories as to the possible meaning of this information. I would also like to see verification if it's available but you are one of the ~3 users I trust so that is of secondary importance.

 

[Sutton]

Sutton, you say that JR's watch was found a bit away from her body. This is interesting. I would like to see users put forth theories as to the possible meaning of this information. I would also like to see verification if it's available but you are one of the ~3 users I trust so that is of secondary importance.

This article published in the on 30 May 1998 mentions Jane's watch:

Who killed these women? - The hunt for a serial killer - Part 1

Her watch was found, giving police clues about which they refused to talk. But there is evidence Ms Rimmer was killed and dumped within hours of her abduction.

Debi Marshall wrote (Chapter 10, Location 610):

The only piece of jewellery found, much later, is Jane's watch, a small distance from her body.

I don't know where I read 'grasses'--still looking for that article.

Was the killer taking it as a souvenir or getting rid of possible evidence? Did it just fall off her wrist?

Kind of interesting that Karrakatta's license was dropped in Rowe Park. That's two dropped items.

http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/app...0&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=news980601_0220_2955

 

[elastic]

To my knowledge:

From Jane Rimmer: everything, jeans/pants, long-sleeved shirt, jumper/cardigan, undergarments, dark shoes, purse. Her watch was found in grasses near the road close to her disposal site.

From Ciara Glennon: she was still wearing a blouse and skirt, but her suit jacket, shoes, purse, and Claddagh brooch are missing.

That's not official though, maybe someone else has slightly different information

If that is true and Jane was not sexually assaulted/ raped, then could that mean the CSK wrestled with the victim, potentially get hairs and evidence all over the victims clothing, and stripped the clothing and disposed of it to hide the evidence. If this were the case he may have struggled to get her under control, ended up in a scuffle, and left possible evidence everywhere. It is very likely the killer wore gloves.

If Ciara did have all her clothes and just a few particular items had disappeared could that also mean that she was hit with force, or a blunt forced object, or maybe king hit to such a high level of force that she was knocked out, or almost killed, and was easy to tie up and transport meaning the killer didn't feel a need to hide the clothing.


If we entertained Barts unsubstantiated theory that the CSK victims may have had their throats cut then what is not clear is whether this happened whilst the victims were conscious, or unconscious. Its likely the victims made it all the way to near the dump site before having their throats cut, and then possibly disposed of nearby to minimise the amount of transport with the dead body inside the vehicle. They could have gone to an intermediate area, a park, or the cemetery, or even an industrial building or a house and killed them there too but it would be quite risky transporting these victims such huge distances with blood all over them, However if you lined your boot in plastic and then just dumped them off of a road 50km either side of the river then the likely hood of anyone looking in the boot for the body is very minimal providing you are not intoxicated whilst transporting the bodies. A Police officer is unlikely to check the boot of your vehicle unless he could hear someone tapping on the boot from inside, and this wouldn't happen if the CSK victims were dead with their throats cut.

Now if we entertain Barts unsubstantiated theory some more we can assume then that the CSK may have gotten his own blood on the blood stained shirt of Jane or maybe other evidence that could be used to link him, and with Ciara maybe he demobilised her easily enough that he could just tie her up and kill her knowing he would not leave evidence. If Jane was a struggle then the DNA or other evidence could have been everywhere mixed with her blood and and he may have panicked.

I wonder where these items of jewelry/accessories ended up, I can see why people entertain the copy cat theory with the Birnies when you look at what jewelry/accessories may have gone missing from the CSK case, it would be fit for a woman from a low socioeconomic background to maybe keep and use these items. But its very possible a male killer may want these items too, I have read of many killers keeping things like shoes and jewelry so that could not be ruled out also and probably more likely than a female wanting the items.

 

[elastic]

[ELASTIC SAYS:We were actually discussing this some months back, it may have been earlier in this thread, or the previous thread, but Frankie did tell us the car must have been stationary, he said he would have noticed a car going passed him that time of night, and that the friend recognised the brake lights and assumed it was white.

Frankie, did your friend actually see the colour white or just assume?

Billwhiz, Frankie also contacted his friend to rehash his story for us via request on this or the previous thread.

If Frankie is genuine then the Police were spreading misinformation.. If I recall Frankie does not believe his friend saw the Ciara bend down towards a car. Which means it could have been made up

Was this car with brake lights stationed in a car park bay on the street, or a legally parked part of the street, or was it in theory illegally parked?[/QUOTE


that night when she walked passed us on the other side of the road my friend yelled out to her she was crazy for hitchhiking
and he also said that girl is going to go missing tonight.Then He said he seen some brake lights come on from a car going the same way as CG and he describe the make of the car as a station wagon. He did tell the police a white station wagon.

Thank you for clarifying this, I remmeber it originally taking about 30 messages to get a story out of you that was coherent. That last sentence hugely clarifys the situation.

So it is likely that car your mate saw with the brake lights was the CSK, and if the victim and perp were out of sight then your friend could not have seen the CSK easily just pull up knock her out and taken her to the kill spot, how long were you guys at the bus stop for, do you remmeber hearing any screams or seeing Lance Williams face out and about that night?

 

[88mph]

JR being naked is interesting as it differentiates Karrakatta and GC who were left with clothes on. Also, JR was the only victim not on the outskirts of Claremont (as far as we know).

Is it possible CSK roamed central Claremont and hit on JR and got lucky? Got her back to his place and got to third base, then perhaps flipped when he couldn't get what he wanted??

Reasoning, she was naked and in my experience during sex with my girlfriend who is a willing participant, getting her clothes off can be a struggle at the best of times. I can't imagine how difficult this would be when someone is fighting you off. Did JR help CSK to get herself naked?

Police suggest they're unsure if she was raped which also supports the willingness theory. You also have to ask why she was naked in the first place, CSK is a sex attacker and wouldn't have attacked and undressed for no reason. So why did the police suggest they were unsure if she was raped?

Roaming central Claremont and hitting on JR seems outside the blitz theory however it links to the laneway attack behind CBV and the person approaching women on St Quentin the night before GC was taken.

 

[Elwood_1]

Stirling Hwy outside of Jacks was pretty well lit at night, as was the car park. From memory there was a big floodlight on the east side of the carpark to keep the bogans illuminated, and I believe another facing the bus stop out the front.

On the night Sarah went missing it would have been really busy with people going home late after the fireworks, and there wasn't a lot of places to get food between Perth and Freo at that time of night, so the Jacks drive through was always busy. Plus, they did the best bacon double cheese burgers in Perth.

A blitz attack would be fairly fast, but at that time of night there would have been a lot of traffic and people moving around. Just look at the security video, there were people everywhere. I think standing in the middle of the highway with a parked car wrestling with a screaming girl would be very unlikely to go unobserved.

He had another method of getting them into his car, and they probably got in voluntarily IMHO. If they were blitzed, it was later when they realized that he wasn't taking them where they wanted to go, and that would have required getting to somewhere secluded where he could suddenly turn off a main road and subdue them properly before they knew they were even in danger. That sounds like a quiet park close to a main road, or a deserted commercial area to me. He would have wanted about two minutes to quieten them down, then time to hide the victim out of sight. Unobserved. And then move again in case he had been seen.

Where would that be?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Stirling Hwy outside of Jacks was pretty well lit at night, as was the car park. From memory there was a big floodlight on the east side of the carpark to keep the bogans illuminated, and I believe another facing the bus stop out the front.

On the night Sarah went missing it would have been really busy with people going home late after the fireworks, and there wasn't a lot of places to get food between Perth and Freo at that time of night, so the Jacks drive through was always busy. Plus, they did the best bacon double cheese burgers in Perth.

A blitz attack would be fairly fast, but at that time of night there would have been a lot of traffic and people moving around. Just look at the security video, there were people everywhere. I think standing in the middle of the highway with a parked car wrestling with a screaming girl would be very unlikely to go unobserved.

He had another method of getting them into his car, and they probably got in voluntarily IMHO. If they were blitzed, it was later when they realized that he wasn't taking them where they wanted to go, and that would have required getting to somewhere secluded where he could suddenly turn off a main road and subdue them properly before they knew they were even in danger. That sounds like a quiet park close to a main road, or a deserted commercial area to me. He would have wanted about two minutes to quieten them down, then time to hide the victim out of sight. Unobserved. And then move again in case he had been seen.

Where would that be?

At 2am there would have been traffic (CBV patrons and HJ's drive through visitors) in the car park. Where SS was - very little traffic.

Both CG and SS were heading to Mosman Park. JR - who knows but her home was in the other direction.

So if the girls got into a car, the CSK likely maintained for some time that he was heading the same way. So enroute from Claremont to Mosman Park, where did he stop? What excuse did he use? If he did in fact cut their throats, he would have needed a place that was secluded. CG allegedly had a head wound, something that maybe a firepoker would make. How did this fit in?

He most likely had to stop somewhere secluded. How did he explain this to the girls? Did he have a gun or knife? Did he pull over under the guise of breaking down and then assault them inside or outside the car?

A gun or knife works because he could have turned around and gone to Karrakatta or Minim Cove "We're going to a secluded spot, I'm going to rape you and then let you go. Stay calm and you won't get hurt"

To get the girls to a secluded spot without alerting them would have been hard. There's not many secluded spots between Claremont and Mosman Park. I'm leaning towards him having a weapon to control them.


On JR

- If she accepted a lift then she was probably heading in a different direction (Wembley or Shenton Park). I'd assume either her friends or parents in Shenton Park because Wembley isn't easily accessible from Claremont.
- He picked up both SS and CG when the chances were they were heading west. Easy for a person offering a lift to guess the right offer (you don't want to offer someone a lift by saying you're going to Shenton Park when the victim wants to go to Mosman Park. CG was an easy assumption as she was walking in that direction. SS was an educated guess (if she was going the other way she would have used the phone box on Bay View Tce).
- But JR? Was she walking towards Shenton Park? (meaning he may have needed a different pull over area if pulling over was his MO)
- For some unlikely reason was she walking west along Gugeri?
- Or was she still just standing there? If so, the CSK must have had a compelling story to get her into the car.

If the girls accepted lifts I think it's more likely he controlled them with a weapon to get to his local kill site. I lean towards Karrakatta.

 

[Foolio79]

Hi all, first time poster here but Ive been following this case for some time now.

I and im sure many others would love to see some more discussion regarding the martial arts expert referred to in the CIA doco.

Is there any definitive proof that he is the man referred to as JM? If not who is he then?

Some have speculated that the whole point of the doco was to show JM to the public. If thats the case then that would mean he is or at least was an extremely strong POI in the eyes of the investigators.

A person with his expertise strikes me as someone who would have the discipline and skills to not only carry out the attacks but stop offending if necessary.

His appearance on the doco was certainly strange as are some of his facebook posts. IMHO.