Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5
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That's a great writeup, GreenDevil - thank you.
With regards to SS potentially getting into a vehicle, I'm just trying to put myself in that situation to come up with some ideas...
My first thought was that she may have been concerned that she would be waiting there a long time (as Bart said), and so was open to options of getting home ASAP. Along that same vein, getting into a car would possibly feel like the safer option than standing on the street by yourself so late at night. At that time, no one knew that there was a killer on the streets, but it would still be reasonable to assume that a young woman would feel a little vulnerable in that situation. She didn't know that a taxi was only a couple of minutes away; we know that now, but she may have just wanted to begin her journey home. Another hypothetical: if she had had a big day (Australia Day) and happened across what seemed like a safe and free trip home, perhaps that was appealing. She may have come from a wealthy family, but that doesn't mean she wasn't watching what she spent or saving her money, or something along those lines.
My breakdown of "voluntarily got into car" theories:
1). Taxi (real or not), thinking it was the one she had ordered.
2). An acquaintance (as GreenDevil said, not anyone of special significance, but perhaps a somewhat familiar face)
3). A police officer
4). A friend or family member
5). Different service worker (e.g. Telecom)
6). Random member of public
1). Possible, but would be quite risky and I would think a fairly high chance of witnesses. Add on thought to this one - not a marked taxi but a friendly looking driver who flashes something of an ID and says he's a taxi driver. I would think this unlikely as it would arouse some suspicion and I don't think he would have a 100% strike rate with this approach.
2). Possible; a familiar face may have been welcomed at 2am on the side of the road. No perceived risk. Free lift. Home ASAP. However, this opens up questions of (un)lucky timing/stalking/possibility of her refusing etc. It could be that a murder was planned, but this particular pick up was opportunistic, but this doesn't sit especially well with me in terms of criminal "serial killer" psychology. The more I think about this theory, the more questions are raised. A bouncer fits in here also, but again - they could be easily refused; I wouldn't anticipate a 100% strike rate.
3). I would think this unlikely unless she was groomed prior (e.g. chatting to an off-duty cop in a club; accepting a lift would be more likely, having spoken to him previously [and harmlessly], and with that knowledge of his background). Another option that, IMO, is very unlikely to have a 100% strike rate.
4). As previously said, I would hope that any potential friend/close co-worker connection was thoroughly investigated. I would highly, highly doubt family given his/their other victims.
5). IMO, this is unlikely. A random telecom/local service worker would have to be incredibly charming to not arouse suspicion; definitely would not expect a 100% strike rate, regardless of charm. Their vehicle, if marked, would also be potentially identifiable by witnesses.
6). Still a possibility, even though we are always looking for connections and "reasons". I was just re-reading about the Moors murders after the recent news re Brady's Dr friend knowing his "secrets" and planning a tell-all. Anyway, reflecting on the MOs of Brady/Hindley, the Birnies, and other similar couplings, it is a possibility that there was a female driver/accomplice offering a seemingly harmless and friendly lift. I would think this would be one of the least threatening and the least likely to be reported as suspicious if a lift was not accepted.
With regards to Karrakatta, if this is the same offender, we are already assuming some development/evolution and a significant change in MO if we subscribe to any "voluntarily got into car" theory. However, some are more likely than others - IMO. Option 1 may be more likely as the "attack" could happen within minutes of getting into the car; different method of abduction but still using similar tactics to attack/subdue. IMO, options 2 and 4 become far less likely. As does option 3 (if any grooming happened). A killer who "grooms" is very different to a killer who opportunistically "blitzes". This leaves 5 and 6 - neither are especially strong theories in my mind, but they can't be discounted either. IMO, theories 1, 5 and 6 do fit a little better with the Karrakatta link in that they allow for that anonymity and there is the possibility of a similar attack style, albeit evolved and with a different method of abduction.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this is adding much of interest to the discussion, but I thought it might help to further flesh these out - especially with the view of what might be more likely for SS.
With regards to SS potentially getting into a vehicle, I'm just trying to put myself in that situation to come up with some ideas...
My first thought was that she may have been concerned that she would be waiting there a long time (as Bart said), and so was open to options of getting home ASAP. Along that same vein, getting into a car would possibly feel like the safer option than standing on the street by yourself so late at night. At that time, no one knew that there was a killer on the streets, but it would still be reasonable to assume that a young woman would feel a little vulnerable in that situation. She didn't know that a taxi was only a couple of minutes away; we know that now, but she may have just wanted to begin her journey home. Another hypothetical: if she had had a big day (Australia Day) and happened across what seemed like a safe and free trip home, perhaps that was appealing. She may have come from a wealthy family, but that doesn't mean she wasn't watching what she spent or saving her money, or something along those lines.
My breakdown of "voluntarily got into car" theories:
1). Taxi (real or not), thinking it was the one she had ordered.
2). An acquaintance (as GreenDevil said, not anyone of special significance, but perhaps a somewhat familiar face)
3). A police officer
4). A friend or family member
5). Different service worker (e.g. Telecom)
6). Random member of public
1). Possible, but would be quite risky and I would think a fairly high chance of witnesses. Add on thought to this one - not a marked taxi but a friendly looking driver who flashes something of an ID and says he's a taxi driver. I would think this unlikely as it would arouse some suspicion and I don't think he would have a 100% strike rate with this approach.
2). Possible; a familiar face may have been welcomed at 2am on the side of the road. No perceived risk. Free lift. Home ASAP. However, this opens up questions of (un)lucky timing/stalking/possibility of her refusing etc. It could be that a murder was planned, but this particular pick up was opportunistic, but this doesn't sit especially well with me in terms of criminal "serial killer" psychology. The more I think about this theory, the more questions are raised. A bouncer fits in here also, but again - they could be easily refused; I wouldn't anticipate a 100% strike rate.
3). I would think this unlikely unless she was groomed prior (e.g. chatting to an off-duty cop in a club; accepting a lift would be more likely, having spoken to him previously [and harmlessly], and with that knowledge of his background). Another option that, IMO, is very unlikely to have a 100% strike rate.
4). As previously said, I would hope that any potential friend/close co-worker connection was thoroughly investigated. I would highly, highly doubt family given his/their other victims.
5). IMO, this is unlikely. A random telecom/local service worker would have to be incredibly charming to not arouse suspicion; definitely would not expect a 100% strike rate, regardless of charm. Their vehicle, if marked, would also be potentially identifiable by witnesses.
6). Still a possibility, even though we are always looking for connections and "reasons". I was just re-reading about the Moors murders after the recent news re Brady's Dr friend knowing his "secrets" and planning a tell-all. Anyway, reflecting on the MOs of Brady/Hindley, the Birnies, and other similar couplings, it is a possibility that there was a female driver/accomplice offering a seemingly harmless and friendly lift. I would think this would be one of the least threatening and the least likely to be reported as suspicious if a lift was not accepted.
With regards to Karrakatta, if this is the same offender, we are already assuming some development/evolution and a significant change in MO if we subscribe to any "voluntarily got into car" theory. However, some are more likely than others - IMO. Option 1 may be more likely as the "attack" could happen within minutes of getting into the car; different method of abduction but still using similar tactics to attack/subdue. IMO, options 2 and 4 become far less likely. As does option 3 (if any grooming happened). A killer who "grooms" is very different to a killer who opportunistically "blitzes". This leaves 5 and 6 - neither are especially strong theories in my mind, but they can't be discounted either. IMO, theories 1, 5 and 6 do fit a little better with the Karrakatta link in that they allow for that anonymity and there is the possibility of a similar attack style, albeit evolved and with a different method of abduction.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this is adding much of interest to the discussion, but I thought it might help to further flesh these out - especially with the view of what might be more likely for SS.
Why?
It makes perfect sense.
Consider this...
A duo is getting around in a Falcon wagon presenting as a taxi, the passenger gives good cover to avoid accepting fares. When a target is identified the passenger hides in the rear compartment. The girl accepts a ride from the taxi, she is none the wiser when all of a sudden the second person throws a noose over their head and pulls as hard as they can.
The girl is subdued in an instance and the taxi, carrying a 'sleeping' passenger, is free to make its way to wherever it ends up without fear of being noticed as unusual.
They victim is then driven to the disposal site and left in the scrub.
This fits in with the claims made by the woman who broke her ankle and with what the bricky saw.
Its too coincidental not to be linked imo.
delbertGrady
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I believe so, 20 years ago the taxi would pick up a fare even if they weren't the allocated cab,
now they know your name and make quite certain they have the right person.
i think bartholemeus makes a very good point about the fact a taxi could be an hour or more wait sometimes late at night or a public holiday, and all the taxi like would tell you is 'next available' with no time frame.,
so SS would have not known the taxi she called would come in 3 minutes, and would not have assumed it would arrive anywhere near that quickly. If a friend or acquaintance did come past, that would feel like a very fortunate happening to her.
she would not have felt any kind of loyalty to the cab she had called and would have happily ditched it for another option.
I would hope the taxi driver who took the call to pick up SS was thoroughly investigated as he would have had the perfect opportunity and I hope that just saying 'she wasn't there' was not taken as definite fact.
by the time CG went missing, was there a huge police presence in Claremont? Why were 3 drunk guys the only ones to see her? How was another girl taken from right under the polices noses, when they had several cameras set up outside the clubs and now the one filming the cars which we have recently found out about. I thought that stuff would go hand in hand with a lot of real time surveillance of the cameras, plus police under cover keeping an eye out in secluded areas around Claremont,, and in the bars acting like patrons. And also uniformed police in the area also.
Does anyone remember from the time, was their a police presence in the area or not?
now they know your name and make quite certain they have the right person.
i think bartholemeus makes a very good point about the fact a taxi could be an hour or more wait sometimes late at night or a public holiday, and all the taxi like would tell you is 'next available' with no time frame.,
so SS would have not known the taxi she called would come in 3 minutes, and would not have assumed it would arrive anywhere near that quickly. If a friend or acquaintance did come past, that would feel like a very fortunate happening to her.
she would not have felt any kind of loyalty to the cab she had called and would have happily ditched it for another option.
I would hope the taxi driver who took the call to pick up SS was thoroughly investigated as he would have had the perfect opportunity and I hope that just saying 'she wasn't there' was not taken as definite fact.
by the time CG went missing, was there a huge police presence in Claremont? Why were 3 drunk guys the only ones to see her? How was another girl taken from right under the polices noses, when they had several cameras set up outside the clubs and now the one filming the cars which we have recently found out about. I thought that stuff would go hand in hand with a lot of real time surveillance of the cameras, plus police under cover keeping an eye out in secluded areas around Claremont,, and in the bars acting like patrons. And also uniformed police in the area also.
Does anyone remember from the time, was their a police presence in the area or not?
Something else i considered, correct me if im wrong but when booking the cab SS would have had to give her name.
Knowing what people have said about her, do we honestly believe she would order the cab in her name and then just get into someone elses vehicle.
Did the taxi operators give an eta for a cab, was it possible in them days?
Although SS may not have known how long the cab would be, neither did the offender so pulling up a few minutes after she's booked her cab and having a conversation capable of getting SS into the car and leaving the scene is a huge risk.
Remember were only talking 5 minutes at the most, thats to spot a person, decide they will go ahead, pull up casually, get a conversation going, get her comfortable enough to get in the car and leave.
It had to have military precision.
Knowing what people have said about her, do we honestly believe she would order the cab in her name and then just get into someone elses vehicle.
Did the taxi operators give an eta for a cab, was it possible in them days?
Although SS may not have known how long the cab would be, neither did the offender so pulling up a few minutes after she's booked her cab and having a conversation capable of getting SS into the car and leaving the scene is a huge risk.
Remember were only talking 5 minutes at the most, thats to spot a person, decide they will go ahead, pull up casually, get a conversation going, get her comfortable enough to get in the car and leave.
It had to have military precision.
firestarter
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GreenDevil.
I am interested to hear your thoughts on Mr Ross and the Stun Gun theory.
Apparently 200 sold to perth taxi drivers.
https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aussiecrime/conversations/topics/34
http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Spiers.htm
firestarter
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Elle
SB yeah? Not sure what this means.
I don't have a theory re TT although I do have suspicions.
Droc mentioned he worked at an abattoir prior to driving taxis.
If true would he of had access to a cattle prod or stun gun.
If true he would be experienced with killing.
I am unable to confirm if he worked at Robs Jetty or any where else.
I am also curious as to his alibi re the night he had a drunk in his cab around the same time one of the girls went missing.
He drove to a police station, went inside, came out with an officer and the drunk had gone.
Almost a perfect alibi.
Did the officer check his boot.
No theories just question.
Thanks for your response, firestarter. I actually deleted my post because when I re-read it, it came across way more cryptic than I had intended (and there is already enough of that around here!).
Have you posted on bigfooty under a different name?
firestarter
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Hi Elle.
I thought it strange that your post disappeared.
I have only ever posted as firestarter.
I began reading about TT about a year ago when I had concerns about the guy and googled his name.
I was a little shocked to read the allegations.
That's interesting. Do you mean you came across him in real life and had concerns?
firestarter
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Correct.
delbertGrady
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I would be so interested to know what your cause for concern was if you could elaborate?
firestarter
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It was something I found a little creepy.
In regards to TT and a woman I know.
I won't go into details as it doesn't relate to the case.
Sutton
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A blitz attack would have been quicker and more reliable for the killer, IMO.
If the CSK stopped to talk to her, they would have to have talked for a minute or two. Anyone could have driven by or pulled up behind the killer's car, while he's trying to talk her into getting a ride. And she could have said no. Then what would he do? Try a blitz attack? That really prolongs the time he could be seen. IMO.
A blitz attack would take 10-20 seconds. And SS wouldn't have even known what was going on until he had reached her.
It looks very easy, IMO. SS would have standing where this yellow dot is when the killer pulled up. He could get into the far left lane, put the car in Park, and run around the vehicle and grab her. This would be relatively low risk for kilker as long as he was looking out for approaching vehicles. IMO. She wouldn't have time to run. The street/sidewalk/construction was likely different in 1996, but same basic concept. IMO.
But I cannot rule out an acquaintance or a rogue taxi.
If the CSK stopped to talk to her, they would have to have talked for a minute or two. Anyone could have driven by or pulled up behind the killer's car, while he's trying to talk her into getting a ride. And she could have said no. Then what would he do? Try a blitz attack? That really prolongs the time he could be seen. IMO.
A blitz attack would take 10-20 seconds. And SS wouldn't have even known what was going on until he had reached her.
It looks very easy, IMO. SS would have standing where this yellow dot is when the killer pulled up. He could get into the far left lane, put the car in Park, and run around the vehicle and grab her. This would be relatively low risk for kilker as long as he was looking out for approaching vehicles. IMO. She wouldn't have time to run. The street/sidewalk/construction was likely different in 1996, but same basic concept. IMO.
But I cannot rule out an acquaintance or a rogue taxi.
GreenDevil
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I do not believe that SR has the intelligence, or the ability to commit the crimes. The stun gun would've been purely for his own protection, cabby's get assaulted and robbed all the time even back then. The stun gun issue IMO is more related to the lack of safety for taxi drivers and nothing more then that.
I also do not believe SR is intelligent enough to withstand police interviewing, with out having his story pulled to pieces and determined he's lying. He's just not smart enough.
GreenDevil
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A blitz attack would have been quicker and more reliable for the killer, IMO.
If the CSK stopped to talk to her, they would have to have talked for a minute or two. Anyone could have driven by or pulled up behind the killer's car, while he's trying to talk her into getting a ride. And she could have said no. Then what would he do? Try a blitz attack? That really prolongs the time he could be seen. IMO.
A blitz attack would take 10-20 seconds. And SS wouldn't have even known what was going on until he had reached her.
It looks very easy, IMO. SS would have standing where this yellow dot is when the killer pulled up. He could get into the far left lane, put the car in Park, and run around the vehicle and grab her. This would be relatively low risk for kilker as long as he was looking out for approaching vehicles. IMO. She wouldn't have time to run. The street/sidewalk/construction was likely different in 1996, but same basic concept. IMO.
View attachment 94271
But I cannot rule out an acquaintance or a rogue taxi.
Nice post Sutton and the way you put it, it's definitely a possibility SS was blitz attacked. I just think where she was standing makes it high risk for a blitz attack due to on coming traffic or nearby witnesses. After all, there are witness accounts of people driving by that actually saw her, as it is. I just think it's less likely she was blitz attacked and more likely she accepted a lift, but by no means would I rule out a blitz attack.
Peter Kurten
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Trusting that the Karrakatta rape is connected, I think we can take away a few things from this particular crime. While MO’s do change, in this particular crime the person had his vehicle parked up in a car park and lay in waiting. I think this means a lot more than people think.
Three options for the other three abductions:
(1) The offender was passing through Claremont each night of the abductions. This would mean only being in the area once (perhaps twice if he did a repeat loop). The chance of him finding and luring his victims at the precise time of passing through must have meant he’d be passing through almost every weekend over that period.
(2) The offender repeatedly circled Claremont to find victims. This would have aroused suspicion with those who were sitting around waiting or working some sort of stationery position such as a bouncer or doorman. This would have also been repetitive and not have felt comfortable.
(3) The offender scoped out some very discrete side streets to park in the darkness that had a good view of the busier streets that girls most likely used to walk out of Claremont. Mount Street, Freshwater Parade, and Langsford Street for instance. This also matches up with the Rowe Street crime.
Three options for the other three abductions:
(1) The offender was passing through Claremont each night of the abductions. This would mean only being in the area once (perhaps twice if he did a repeat loop). The chance of him finding and luring his victims at the precise time of passing through must have meant he’d be passing through almost every weekend over that period.
(2) The offender repeatedly circled Claremont to find victims. This would have aroused suspicion with those who were sitting around waiting or working some sort of stationery position such as a bouncer or doorman. This would have also been repetitive and not have felt comfortable.
(3) The offender scoped out some very discrete side streets to park in the darkness that had a good view of the busier streets that girls most likely used to walk out of Claremont. Mount Street, Freshwater Parade, and Langsford Street for instance. This also matches up with the Rowe Street crime.
CSK?
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Ok... so lets say this crossed with the throat cutting (if that is fact) theory that has been discussed and pretty much combined with the general census of how CSK would operate.. who was the guy with the plastic lined boot that was nabbed? was he also found with a gun? or other weapon? surely having your boot lined in plastic is rare enough let alone whilst a killer is operating in the area that can cleanly transport his victims too and from a kill site to his dumping grounds undetected and with little trace evidence.
If this guy with his plastic lined boot did in fact have a weapon on him then that is a pretty strong candidate to fit a person capable to blitz attack and transport a person/body out of the area.
Now throw it that incident where the woman has her head smashed against the wall (not sure of the year but it was pre csk by a few years, at one of the pubs) what if this guy parks a little a way as Peter stated, and simply hides and bashes his victim unconscious within 30 secs or so, drags her to the car and bang gone within 1 1/2 - 2 minutes. out of there...
Was Kara rape victim known to have been physically assaulted as part of the kidnap or was it simply a grab and drag abduction?
Does anyone have any other reason why you would plastic line a boot, (and if info is correct) a weapon(s)....?
Appropriately named book, with the benefit of hindsight...
Interesting couple of posts about the military by Indigo back in February (around #446):
Campbell Barracks is an Australian Army base located in Swanbourne, a coastal suburb of Perth, Western Australia....
The Special Air Service Regiment (SASR) has been based at Campbell Barracks since the Regiment was first established as an independent company in 1957. Although Campbell Barracks is the home of the SASR, most of the training and selection for the regiment takes place in Bindoon, Western Australia.'
Link from wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbe...n_Australia)
mentioned his mate Phantom62 was an old Vietnam vet (11 June 2007) - link follows.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...s/has_a_serial_killer_blogged_here/desc/P250/
Phantom62 himself claimed to have association with SAS elsewhere in that Gary Hughes blog on CSK.
If ever there was a highly organised and efficient killer with requisite skills in their craft it would be our special forces - the SAS are (for the benefit of our foreign readers) the equivalent of the US green berets.
Campbell Barracks is an Australian Army base located in Swanbourne, a coastal suburb of Perth, Western Australia....
The Special Air Service Regiment (SASR) has been based at Campbell Barracks since the Regiment was first established as an independent company in 1957. Although Campbell Barracks is the home of the SASR, most of the training and selection for the regiment takes place in Bindoon, Western Australia.'
Link from wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbe...n_Australia)
mentioned his mate Phantom62 was an old Vietnam vet (11 June 2007) - link follows.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...s/has_a_serial_killer_blogged_here/desc/P250/
Phantom62 himself claimed to have association with SAS elsewhere in that Gary Hughes blog on CSK.
If ever there was a highly organised and efficient killer with requisite skills in their craft it would be our special forces - the SAS are (for the benefit of our foreign readers) the equivalent of the US green berets.
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