Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[Owlie]

I drove into the cemetery tonight just on dark. I found the layout of the roads quite disorientating as they are not all at right angles or parallel to the surrounding roads. In any case the surrounding roads do not form a neat grid. I feel that anyone entering there at night in a car would have to know the place very well as it would be difficult to make a quick getaway otherwise. The roads would all look the same in the dark - there aren't many distinguishing landmarks. There are signposts, but only some of them indicate the direction of the exits. Many places within the cemetery are quite far from housing (there are quite a lot of businesses, light industry and the railway surrounding) so noises would probably not be heard, and if they were it would most likely be difficult to determine where they came from.

I don't know whether I have made a case for the cemetery being used for other CSK attacks (other than the so called kk rape) or for it NOT being used for anything following...


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OMG you're much braver than me even if it was dusk/just on nightfall!!! I know what you mean about the roads it's even a bit disorientating when you go there for a funeral during the day.


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[Greysp]

I just had to go back through your posts to find what what you were talking about. I don't have a problem with your posts, in fact I like any post that presents an alternative point of view to my own.

I can't speak for others here but with DNA links to several crime scenes I think it will be hard to dispute his guilt. So why am I still on the forum? I am interested in finding out where SS is and if he has other victims. Understanding his MO would be helpful to do this which is why I enjoy everyone's theories and other information they find.

When I read your post on a DNA (I am assuming this was the one you are referring too) I was under the impression that you believed they only had a partial DNA sample. As the police won't release DNA details that is of course a possibility. However, I did find one newspaper that states clearly the use of familial DNA in this case.

"And they believed they had managed to obtain a DNA profile of the killer from the body of Glennon. In an astonishing development, they matched this to the Karrakatta rape in 1995.

The person they were looking for, they decided, drove a late-model mid-1990s white Holden Commodore VS Series in the mid-1990s. They had his DNA but they did not know who he was.

Next came the technique sometimes called “familial DNA” where police look for people who are closely related to a suspected offender."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d/news-story/f34913420ecf0edf1a4b991994f8254d

IMO they may have used LCN DNA but they don't discuss how they managed to get the sample from CG, suggesting it was either through a specialist from the UK who was called in to consult or advances in technology. As LCN DNA is relatively new I believe this would present a defence argument (which I believe you were suggesting in your original post) if it weren't for the fact it matches another DNA sample (KK) perfectly.

Am I on the right track, sorry it is a little long winded.


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Don't know too much about LCN but it'd be interesting the degree of statistical probability a result would have. Also it's obviously more prone to contamination. Also a possibility of mixed partial profiles.
I'd be interested to know where they got the DNA off CG. I read it was a missed item. I wonder if that's true and if it was just a genomic match. Full profile? Mixed? Wish they'd hurry up with it all.

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[Greysp]

Security Cameras are installed at KK but are installed by the Metropolitan Cemeteries Board based on their liaison with WAPOL and Police Licensed Security Agents.

The installation of cameras at KK is independent of the Nedlands Council as MCB are responsible for the management of the cemetery.

The cameras come directly from MCB's budget.

Provided signage is erected and Cemeteries comply with the Surveillance Devices Act or similar legislation, there is usually no issue with the installation of cameras.

Camera are installed to deter vandalism, but in most cases are used to deter theft from vehicles that are parked whilst people attend funerals.

The installation of cameras at KK are carried out by Police Licensed Security installers from reputable security companies.

It would not be in the public interest to discuss location and amount of any cameras on a public board.

Telstra is not involved in installing the cameras.

MCB is also involved in security programmes, such as Eyes on the Street.

You may need to come out of retirement. Let me know if you need an assistant!

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[Greysp]

4 years and 6 months for raping a little 6 year old girl in the toilets, not nearly enough! OK so he's been in custody over 2 years, but still not long enough sentence to reflect the revolting crime against an innocent! Thanks for sharing that DNA is catching up with all these disgusting "individuals".:sick: Think they'll have to build some more prisons as there will likely be a lot more arrests from all these cold case reviews! Good!

I think the onlu way they'll get BRE to give up SS is to take "never to be released" off the table. Unfortunately the death penalty isn't a possibility. Obviously depends on how much evidence they have against him.

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[Greysp]

Been reading up on LCN. It's very problematic. Don't know if WA use it but I seriously doubt it. And I wouldn't be confident taking it to court unless it was a very clear full profile without any stutters or allele drop outs or drop ins. We'll see I guess.

Mitochondrial is another possibility but again...it is extremely problematic. I dont think anywhere in Oz does it.

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[silver tongue]

whats going on
was there an invite posted to the the RSL

 

[bessie]

ADMIN NOTE: Photos MUST include links unless you've taken tem yourself. Google is not acceptable. We require a link to the original source, i.e., website, publication, or MSM article.

Thankyou

Bessie
WS ADMINISTRATOR

 

[CSK?]

my apologies, I meant this case not this site.

and apologies to admin, as I know this is also not the right way to complain, however if ppl are 100% certain of BREs guilt you need to ask what their motivation is to keep posting.
to derail the thread for legit users...

I'm one of the people that think BRE is our guy, I have not had a second thought as to if he wasn't, I just can't see any reason why this case would have to be suddenly solved after 21 years for them to act on guess work or to frame an innocent man.


My being here has nothing to do with if I think he is guilty or not, I'm hoping sleuths can help uncover more crimes or connect known crimes to the accused etc etc & in a way the case has become some what of an addiction for most people here, with very few news updates and a long drawn out court proceedings this is kind of the only way to get our "fix".


I've never abused you so just making that clear to others so they don't think I'm the one doing it, regardless of if I agree with your opinion or not you don't deserve abuse for having one, contact a mod I'm sure they'ed be willing to deal with it quick smart.

 

[CSK?]

I think the onlu way they'll get BRE to give up SS is to take "never to be released" off the table. Unfortunately the death penalty isn't a possibility. Obviously depends on how much evidence they have against him.

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I don't think that would work even if they took that off the table, If BRE is guilty then he is smart enough to realize he is never being released and his best chances would be in beating the charges, admitting to the location of a body would be counter productive to this. If he is innocent then he wouldn't have a clue where her body was.


SS being found by a confession will depend entirely on what kind of killer (alleged) that BRE is, for example:


1) If he comes to terms with the fact he will die in jail and wants to add to his SK legacy by getting the body count up he may confess.


2) If he tries to play the victim he will deny deny deny in the face of any and all evidence against him.


3) If he wants to feel as if he still has power and/or control he will not reveal the location.


4) If he has true remorse (and not just sorry he got caught) revealing the location might be probable.


In all likelihood though I feel BRE will remain tight lipped, try to play the victim of a great police injustice and hope someone out there believes him.

 

[JoWa]

Been reading up on LCN. It's very problematic. Don't know if WA use it but I seriously doubt it. And I wouldn't be confident taking it to court unless it was a very clear full profile without any stutters or allele drop outs or drop ins. We'll see I guess.

Mitochondrial is another possibility but again...it is extremely problematic. I dont think anywhere in Oz does it.

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I completely agree on the problems with LCN, but I'm assuming they would have to use this method due to the age of some of the samples.

My understanding is that DNA from older cases (like huntingdale and CG) would be deteriorated and the LCN process is used by taking a minuscule partial sample and replicating or growing it into a full profile. I don't really grasp the science behind it, but I believe the US labs aren't as accurate as the UK labs and it is very controversial.

This website gives a good overview of DNA types.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

This website gives an indication of the controversy over the use of LCN DNA in US courts.

http://www.promegaconnections.com/dna-evidence-measuring-up-to-the-frye-standard-of-acceptance/

If they did use LCN DNA for two of the older samples (huntingdale and CG) and came up with the same guy as they had from a third sample (KK) and then they matched that through familial DNA to someone. That's a lot of DNA matches, considering DNA is unique to each individual. Think the DNA may be ok.

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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[Sillybilly]

Stop the snarking and sniping in this thread or TOs will be issued.

On another note, the same rules apply to private messaging that apply on the threads. If anyone is receiving disrespectful messages via PM, please use the Alert feature to let Mods/Admin know and they will be reviewed and dealt with.

Play nice !! :wave:

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

I completely agree on the problems with LCN, but I'm assuming they would have to use this method due to the age of some of the samples.

My understanding is that DNA from older cases (like huntingdale and CG) would be deteriorated and the LCN process is used by taking a minuscule partial sample and replicating or growing it into a full profile. I don't really grasp the science behind it, but I believe the US labs aren't as accurate as the UK labs and it is very controversial.

This website gives a good overview of DNA types.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

This website gives an indication of the controversy over the use of LCN DNA in US courts.

http://www.promegaconnections.com/dna-evidence-measuring-up-to-the-frye-standard-of-acceptance/

If they did use LCN DNA for two of the older samples (huntingdale and CG) and came up with the same guy as they had from a third sample (KK) and then they matched that through familial DNA to someone. That's a lot of DNA matches, considering DNA is unique to each individual. Think the DNA may be ok.

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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Correct me if I'm wrong - but IMO the only links between CG and JR are:
1. Claremont
2. Conti
3. Fibres found on JR from VS Commodore
4. Witness reports CG leaning over talking to driver of light coloured vehicle, possibly station wagon.
5. Similar d-site style, not buried, remote location.
6. Some other forensic link known to WAPOL but not released to MSM. Eg: cause of death, markings etc

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

I completely agree on the problems with LCN, but I'm assuming they would have to use this method due to the age of some of the samples.

My understanding is that DNA from older cases (like huntingdale and CG) would be deteriorated and the LCN process is used by taking a minuscule partial sample and replicating or growing it into a full profile. I don't really grasp the science behind it, but I believe the US labs aren't as accurate as the UK labs and it is very controversial.

This website gives a good overview of DNA types.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

This website gives an indication of the controversy over the use of LCN DNA in US courts.

http://www.promegaconnections.com/dna-evidence-measuring-up-to-the-frye-standard-of-acceptance/

If they did use LCN DNA for two of the older samples (huntingdale and CG) and came up with the same guy as they had from a third sample (KK) and then they matched that through familial DNA to someone. That's a lot of DNA matches, considering DNA is unique to each individual. Think the DNA may be ok.

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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From the DNA web link provided by JoWa above:
"......there are alternative hypotheses that could account for a match, such as sample contamination in the laboratory or at the crime scene. Thus, DNA evidence must always be considered in the context of the other available evidence in a case......"

Hope WAPOL have some decent evidence to back up DNA!

 

[Molly Dooker]

Snipped

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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A really perplexing question. Could it just be his really unique/specific MO rather than DNA or car seat fibres?


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[Spooks-R-Us]

I completely agree on the problems with LCN, but I'm assuming they would have to use this method due to the age of some of the samples.

My understanding is that DNA from older cases (like huntingdale and CG) would be deteriorated and the LCN process is used by taking a minuscule partial sample and replicating or growing it into a full profile. I don't really grasp the science behind it, but I believe the US labs aren't as accurate as the UK labs and it is very controversial.

This website gives a good overview of DNA types.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

This website gives an indication of the controversy over the use of LCN DNA in US courts.

http://www.promegaconnections.com/dna-evidence-measuring-up-to-the-frye-standard-of-acceptance/

If they did use LCN DNA for two of the older samples (huntingdale and CG) and came up with the same guy as they had from a third sample (KK) and then they matched that through familial DNA to someone. That's a lot of DNA matches, considering DNA is unique to each individual. Think the DNA may be ok.

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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From JoWa web link above about DNA:

".......examined the impact of DNA evidence on court outcomes for sexual offences, homicide and property offences in Queensland. In each of these studies, 150–200 cases were included, half where DNA evidence was presented and the remaining half assigned as comparison-control cases. In sexual offence cases, DNA evidence doubled the likelihood that a case reached court, and the presentation of DNA evidence by the prosecution resulted in a 33-fold increase in the likelihood that a jury would find the offender guilty. The presence of DNA evidence also increased the likelihood of a custodial sentence being imposed and, on average, increased the length of the custodial sentence by two months. In relation to homicide cases, those involving DNA evidence were more than 14 times more likely to reach court, and juries were more than 23 times more likely to convict....."

Let's hope WAPOL have some hefty DNA!!!

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

A really perplexing question. Could it just be his really unique/specific MO rather than DNA or car seat fibres?


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Maybe a specific/unique MO unknown to public and MSM, something else extra - more than just getting young women into a vehicle.....

 

[KG1]

I don't think that would work even if they took that off the table, If BRE is guilty then he is smart enough to realize he is never being released and his best chances would be in beating the charges, admitting to the location of a body would be counter productive to this. If he is innocent then he wouldn't have a clue where her body was.


SS being found by a confession will depend entirely on what kind of killer (alleged) that BRE is, for example:


1) If he comes to terms with the fact he will die in jail and wants to add to his SK legacy by getting the body count up he may confess.


2) If he tries to play the victim he will deny deny deny in the face of any and all evidence against him.


3) If he wants to feel as if he still has power and/or control he will not reveal the location.


4) If he has true remorse (and not just sorry he got caught) revealing the location might be probable.


In all likelihood though I feel BRE will remain tight lipped, try to play the victim of a great police injustice and hope someone out there believes him.

I believe BRE will stick to No 3. Highly unlikely to admit guilt, show remorse or deal with anything. It is likely he will remain aloof and remain silent throughout the entire legal process. That way he retains the power and admits nothing - similar to Ivan Milat. It is likely to remain unknown if there are further victims unless new evidence comes to light. I am also inclined to believe that BRE had some sort of acquaintance with the victims killed. Possibly a third party connection. Hard to see as 'blitz' attacks, given the swiftness of the disappearances. MOO

 

[Greysp]

I completely agree on the problems with LCN, but I'm assuming they would have to use this method due to the age of some of the samples.

My understanding is that DNA from older cases (like huntingdale and CG) would be deteriorated and the LCN process is used by taking a minuscule partial sample and replicating or growing it into a full profile. I don't really grasp the science behind it, but I believe the US labs aren't as accurate as the UK labs and it is very controversial.

This website gives a good overview of DNA types.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

This website gives an indication of the controversy over the use of LCN DNA in US courts.

http://www.promegaconnections.com/dna-evidence-measuring-up-to-the-frye-standard-of-acceptance/

If they did use LCN DNA for two of the older samples (huntingdale and CG) and came up with the same guy as they had from a third sample (KK) and then they matched that through familial DNA to someone. That's a lot of DNA matches, considering DNA is unique to each individual. Think the DNA may be ok.

I can see how these crimes are connected but there has been no mention of DNA from JR that I can find. So what links JR to CG forensically?


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I don't think it was degraded. It only degrades if exposed to harsh elements. I just don't think they had the technology back then. It predates even gel methods. I think it's back when they did ABO.

If it was a semen stain they'd have plenty of DNA.

It's the DNA from CG that may have been a problem. News says it was taken from her body. Harsh elements over 3 weeks of not being found would have caused a lot of degradation. Depending on where they found it. If we assume it was from her genital area then that's the first place decomposition happens because of bacterial activity.

Again....We'll have to wait and see.

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[Coldpizza]

Hello everyone, Trueblue2017 is now a verified insider in this case.

Please treat Trueblue2017 with respect.

Trueblue2017does not need to provide links to his posts and it's up to you whether to believe what Trueblue2017 posts or not.

Thank you.

Coldpizza
WS Administrator

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html

I encourage everyone here to read this link about DNA use in criminal trials. It's a brilliant article!

Thanks to JoWa for finding this resource! Well done!