Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[silver tongue]

early in the case cops said keep an eye out for someone cleaning their car diligently
i always assumed cleaning chemicals were found at the dump sites

 

[CP345]

early in the case cops said keep an eye out for someone cleaning their car diligently
i always assumed cleaning chemicals were found at the dump sites

Yeah I think you could be right. What I found strange was it specifically seemed to be car cleaning chemicals rather than just bleach or something like that. The question I have though is how on earth do you clean your car in the middle of the night with no hose or water?

 

[BReVeTTe]

Yeah I think you could be right. What I found strange was it specifically seemed to be car cleaning chemicals rather than just bleach or something like that. The question I have though is how on earth do you clean your car in the middle of the night with no hose or water?

cut n polish?
and i'v also wondered if the random garments found at the sites had perhaps been used for this purpose.

[emoji887]

 

[CSK?]

early in the case cops said keep an eye out for someone cleaning their car diligently
i always assumed cleaning chemicals were found at the dump sites

In my opinion this was less to do with anything being found to indicate the CSK would clean his car and more to do with the fact he had used a vehicle to abduct girls and then transport their dead bodies to the dump site. Most people would be diligent in trying to remove evidence of abduction & murder from their vehicles. The profile that was built that included a reference of vehicle cleaning was also painting a picture of a "well to do" person in a good job, generally these people will look after a car a lot better than your average person whom isn't a "car head" so as well as the fact a murderer would be cleaning their vehicle the profilers were making an educated guess based off what their understanding of the killer was at the time.

As far as I am aware no factual stories of cleaning products were ever reported and this was a rumor perpetuated by the infamous Dr.P.

 

[CP345]

cut n polish?
and i'v also wondered if the random garments found at the sites had perhaps been used for this purpose.

[emoji887]

Yep cut and polish doesn't need water if the car is clean but really, who on earth would hang around after disposing of a body to cut and polish a car in the dark? If you'd committed this crime what would you be needing to clean with such urgency that you'd be willing to risk extra time exposed at the disposal site? Perhaps the cargo bay of the wagon with some kind of cleaner. Assuming it had rubber matting you might clean that up. Still would have had to have been prepared with stored water in advance.

 

[CP345]

In my opinion this was less to do with anything being found to indicate the CSK would clean his car and more to do with the fact he had used a vehicle to abduct girls and then transport their dead bodies to the dump site. Most people would be diligent in trying to remove evidence of abduction & murder from their vehicles.

Yep, agree CSK. I think it was part of the original profile given by the US expert.

 

[petedavo.au]

Yep cut and polish doesn't need water if the car is clean but really, who on earth would hang around after disposing of a body to cut and polish a car in the dark? If you'd committed this crime what would you be needing to clean with such urgency that you'd be willing to risk extra time exposed at the disposal site? Perhaps the cargo bay of the wagon with some kind of cleaner. Assuming it had rubber matting you might clean that up. Still would have had to have been prepared with stored water in advance.

Doesn't make any sense to risk being caught cleaning a vehicle at a dump site, unless there's extenuating circumstances, like it being borrowed, or the person disposing of a body is quite dumb IMO
Maybe the later post is right, that it is just the opinion of the FBI bloke, as to what type of person to look for in the general community, and not to do with evidence at a dump site.

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[OneSmallStepAtATime]

cut n polish?
and i'v also wondered if the random garments found at the sites had perhaps been used for this purpose.

[emoji887]

Rags that contain cut/polish or other cleaning products may also have been used as a gag? as a ligature? or may have inadvertently fallen out of the vehicle when moving the body?

 

[mandy.maree]

The fact the bodies were covered with basically nothing (some shrubs/leaves I have read on occasion) indicates to me the killer wanted to get out of there in a hurry. Unless there was blood or something very strongly suggesting a crime occurred in his car-theres very little chance he stayed to clean .

That may have been where public holiday Mondays came in handy..for his thorough car cleaning day before returning to work


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[anna.w]

Yep, agree CSK. I think it was part of the original profile given by the US expert.

I thought this as well. The profile in the Ivan Milat matter had a similar suggestion about car cleaning. From memory it was a type of offender who would be likely to drive a later model car and to be meticulous about cleaning and maintaining it, and would be likely to be generally careful and precise about their work and their tools. I think that was because crime scene evidence suggested that control was very important to the offender, and people with a need for a high degree of control in their lives tend to be consistent about that across multiple aspects of their life.

At least one of Ivan Milat's brothers later reminisced that Ivan always told them to "look after your things".

I assume the crime scene evidence in the CSK murders suggested an offender with a similar need for control. The hood in the KK matter is certainly consistent with Milat's blindfolds & restraints.


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[petedavo.au]

Rags that contain cut/polish or other cleaning products may also have been used as a gag? as a ligature? or may have inadvertently fallen out of the vehicle when moving the body?

Debris falling out of the vehicle would be quite possible in the dark IMO.
Probably too much of a stretch to ponder if the perp, stole such discarded items, like cigarette butts, from a workplace or something and deliberately place them there to throw suspicion onto someone else in the future. 20 years is a long time to plan ahead for.

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[CP345]

Debris falling out of the vehicle would be quite possible in the dark IMO.
Probably too much of a stretch to ponder if the perp, stole such discarded items, like cigarette butts, from a workplace or something and deliberately place them there to throw suspicion onto someone else in the future. 20 years is a long time to plan ahead for.

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If the offender was doing things like this to confuse evidence and avoid capture I don't think they were planning that far ahead. They had no way of telling that these crimes would take 20 years to solve.

 

[janwa]

What part does serendipity play in these cases (let alone life in general) if the person/persons driving away from Kings Park hadn't clipped the low wooden barrier and knocked the sump cover off cracking the gearbox, leaving a trail of oil to the spot where the car conked out, would Corryn Rayney have ever been found. maybe Wellard is a much bigger burial plot. The plans to release land from crown to suburban are available to see in the Battye Library, local councils and no doubt those utilities that will be involved in development in some way will have such plans so such a person would know how long a time an area could remain undisturbed. Just a thought.

 

[BReVeTTe]

Rags that contain cut/polish or other cleaning products may also have been used as a gag? as a ligature? or may have inadvertently fallen out of the vehicle when moving the body?

yes, i agree with all your possibilities, OneSmallStep, as i don't believe whoever responsible would have hung about for a single moment longer than it took to dispose. i can only imagine that part of the crime would have happened as quickly as possible
...but then what?
did they return from whence they came?
or continue their journey to a further destination?

IMO, there's a strong possibility CSK did the bulk of his cleaning up casually, prior to disposal, and i can think of no better place than on their own front lawn, where trace of evidence would be washed into the grass; perhaps even the missing clothes were used to blatently wax&polish in full view of neighbours and passers by.

i'm not sold on the notion of him having finalised his deed by the dawn following abduction, it would have afforded very little time, and to my way of thinking, driving offbeat paths through the dark hours could lend itself more to being noticed with an increased risk of being stop-checked by any cruising patrol.
i was onced pulled over for nothing more than being on a country road during the wee hours - but at no time has my vehicle ever been searched, and i would love to know more about the circumstance surrounding the vehicle checked by Con Bayens (with kit and plastic lined boot) ...where and WHY was it stopped(?) and searched? and WHYtf is/was the officer persistent in his claim that it was not thoroughly followed up sufficiently?
[emoji887]

 

[OneSmallStepAtATime]

What part does serendipity play in these cases (let alone life in general) if the person/persons driving away from Kings Park hadn't clipped the low wooden barrier and knocked the sump cover off cracking the gearbox, leaving a trail of oil to the spot where the car conked out, would Corryn Rayney have ever been found. maybe Wellard is a much bigger burial plot. The plans to release land from crown to suburban are available to see in the Battye Library, local councils and no doubt those utilities that will be involved in development in some way will have such plans so such a person would know how long a time an area could remain undisturbed. Just a thought.

or if the person had or their contacts were involved in real estate or in future planning requirements for the new residential estate utilities

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

What part does serendipity play in these cases (let alone life in general) if the person/persons driving away from Kings Park hadn't clipped the low wooden barrier and knocked the sump cover off cracking the gearbox, leaving a trail of oil to the spot where the car conked out, would Corryn Rayney have ever been found. maybe Wellard is a much bigger burial plot. The plans to release land from crown to suburban are available to see in the Battye Library, local councils and no doubt those utilities that will be involved in development in some way will have such plans so such a person would know how long a time an area could remain undisturbed. Just a thought.

I agree. And maybe BSD Consulting (SS place of employment) was involved in matters of town planning etc which involved Telstra. And a big maybe.....maybe the accused BRE happened upon some association with BSD Consulting and possibly passed SS in a corridor somewhere....

 

[silver tongue]

the bloke up the road from me cleaned and polished his car every second day
i kept a close eye on him, and had him pinned as a possible suspect
i think he became aware of my spying and would stop what he was doing and slip me the greasy eyeball
i now drive the opposite way to avoid him

 

[RETPI]

'm not sold on the notion of him having finalised his deed by the dawn following abduction, it would have afforded very little time, and to my way of thinking, driving offbeat paths through the dark hours could lend itself more to being noticed with an increased risk of being stop-checked by any cruising patrol.i was onced pulled over for nothing more than being on a country road during the wee hours - but at no time has my vehicle ever been searched, and i would love to know more about the circumstance surrounding the vehicle checked by Con Bayens (with kit and plastic lined boot) ...where and WHY it was it stopped(?) and searched? and WHYtf is/was the officer persistent in his claim that it was not thoroughly followed up sufficiently?
[emoji887]

The vehicle was first thought to be an unmarked Police vehicle.

It was alleged to have come to the attention of BAYENS during a street prostitution operation that BAYENS was heading for WAPOL.

As a transaction hadn't allegedly been conducted by the driver, they were not charged with an offence.

BAYENS was said to have brought the driver to the attention of Macro and claims it was not followed up.

IMO, BAYENS was not in a position to know if it was followed up, given the way that Macro operated under a veil of secrecy.

In any case, BAYENS was in a position to carry out inquiries independent of macro and indeed, I believe Criminal Intelligence were willing to authorise surveillance.

 

[Eaglette]

WASleuth;There was a doco about the case on telly which showed what the police had done and the evidence they had made up about LR killing is wife at the house but all the evidence was fabricated. The judge was scathing of the police.

The Judge was also scathing of Lloyd Rayney and I quote: "The accused has engaged in discreditable conduct, including knowingly arranging for illegal telephone interception, making a false declaration and giving deliberately false evidence to a court while on oath."

I refer you to the Judges summary; http://www.supremecourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Judgment_Summary_Rayney.pdf

I don't believe the "pods" were planted IMHO they were "missed in the autopsy"

 

[WhyWhy]

A few pages back, SilverTongue in response to a 'stun gun' mention included reference to a post on Thread #3 (1087) in regard to a poster who, amongst other things, had the "opportunity to buy a cattle-prod style stun gun from a colleague who knew a taxi driver who was selling them.."
There is a friend of friend distance, but is Morekai still with us on the site? Certainly an avenue worth pursuing. IMO