Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[SherlockSleuth]

I think he will be shown to be right up there with Milat in terms of being one of being one of Australias worst serial killers.All JMO and theory,

Wow really? With respect I see it totally differently. Have you read much about Milat? Amongst other things, he'd stab them rendering them paralysed. He was the sickest & most twisted kind imaginable. I'll be utterly shocked if we learn that CSK had as many victims as Milat or if his victims suffered in such sadistic ways.

Also, the Milat's are a bloody rough/tough crew. I think it was Boris who said something like 'all my siblings are capable of extreme violence in the right circumstances'. Words to that affect anyway. Then there was Ivan's nephew who went and killed his young mate with an axe in the same forest.

 

[petedavo.au]

IMO Around 1997/1988 the CSK makes a couple of clever strategic moves, He stops abducting girls from Claremont and leaves WAPOL to focus on the attention seeking buffoon LW.
He also aquires a wife complete with an" instafamily " young child, which elevates him from a brooding ,quiet ,recently divorced , 30 i'sh single, to a nondescript, married ,montage paying , doting young father ,- just one, amongst tens of thousands in the State.
It could not have worked out better for him.
He possibly returns to his old original stomping ground of the Perth CBD for a victim, LB and is no doubt delighted when WAPOL go to great lengths to flatly deny her disappearance is connected to the feared CSK.
The next year LG in Kalgoorlie fits his classic MO- young lady alone after a night of clubbing -and this disappearance is written off as "bikie related".
The rat- cunning of this offender should be underestimated. Apart from the KK rape ,where he must have gone very , very close to being unexpectedly caught, by some unknown event, he has shown the ability to adapt, move around, and confound investigators time, after time.
I think he will be shown to be right up there with Milat in terms of being one of being one of Australias worst serial killers.
All JMO and theory,

Rat Cunning is an interesting metaphor for Serial Killers, but IMO predatory Fish are more Cunning than scavenging Rodents, and harder to catch. So it might be a more apt metaphor to call them a Cunning Trout since they're so hard to catch. [emoji226]

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[7SJ707]

Wow really? With respect I see it totally differently. Have you read much about Milat? Amongst other things, he'd stab them rendering them paralysed. He was the sickest & most twisted kind imaginable. I'll be utterly shocked if we learn that CSK had as many victims as Milat or if his victims suffered in such sadistic ways.

Also, the Milat's are a bloody rough/tough crew. I think it was Boris who said something like 'all my siblings are capable of extreme violence in the right circumstances'. Words to that affect anyway. Then there was Ivan's nephew who went and killed his young mate with an axe in the same forest.

IMOOne of the Few things WAPOL did right during this long running CSK case was call in the best international experts to assist, and these guys insights about the case and profile of the suspect have been almost 100 percent accurate,- for example ,"likely does a lot of driving in his work, probably deeply involved in local community events, find the KK rapist and you have your killer " etc. etc.
It was one of the FBI trained profilers who predicted that "when this guy is caught he will likely turn out to be Australias worst ever serial killer. "
That is the point of reference for my theory....also we have acting Commissioner Browns " its not over yet " comments and ,his to my mind , pointed statement that WAPOL are going back over a series of serious crimes spanning the last thirty years,,,, considering a lot of young MEN seem to have simply vanished in Western Australia since the late eighties.....
When it was revealed that as a teenager Ivan Milat almost certainly shot a taxi driver in the back and paralysed him it put the later loathsome "head on a stick" spinal injuries to victims into context for a possible explanation.....Marsden the clown defence lawyer who must have carried some guilt for getting Ivan off serious charges early in his" career " speculated that an accomplice in some killings was a female member of the family..
CSK may have roamed free for thirty years as opposed to Milats twenty odd..........

 

[pauldking]

Rat Cunning is an interesting metaphor for Serial Killers, but IMO predatory Fish are more Cunning than scavenging Rodents, and harder to catch. So it might be a more apt metaphor to call them a Cunning Trout since they're so hard to catch. [emoji226]

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The best way to catch trout is to wait. That's how WAPOL get their guys in the end. One mistake is all it takes then crack - they open a can of TRG whoop arse on the welcome mat.

 

[janwa]

.....Marsden the clown defence lawyer who must have carried some guilt for getting Ivan off serious charges early in his" career " speculated that an accomplice in some killings was a female member of the family..
CSK may have roamed free for thirty years as opposed to Milats twenty odd..........

It always seemed strange that from being a teenager Milat could call on Marsden to get him out of trouble e.g. the rape of 2 girls in 1974. That is until you factor in the Costellos connection I believe Milat had a lot on Marsden. Before he died Marsden did say considering what Milat went on to do he did regret getting him off the rapes.

 

[SherlockSleuth]

IMOOne of the Few things WAPOL did right during this long running CSK case was call in the best international experts to assist, and these guys insights about the case and profile of the suspect have been almost 100 percent accurate,- for example ,"likely does a lot of driving in his work, probably deeply involved in local community events, find the KK rapist and you have your killer " etc. etc.
It was one of the FBI trained profilers who predicted that "when this guy is caught he will likely turn out to be Australias worst ever serial killer. "
That is the point of reference for my theory....also we have acting Commissioner Browns " its not over yet " comments and ,his to my mind , pointed statement that WAPOL are going back over a series of serious crimes spanning the last thirty years,,,, considering a lot of young MEN seem to have simply vanished in Western Australia since the late eighties.....
When it was revealed that as a teenager Ivan Milat almost certainly shot a taxi driver in the back and paralysed him it put the later loathsome "head on a stick" spinal injuries to victims into context for a possible explanation.....Marsden the clown defence lawyer who must have carried some guilt for getting Ivan off serious charges early in his" career " speculated that an accomplice in some killings was a female member of the family..
CSK may have roamed free for thirty years as opposed to Milats twenty odd..........

Great post. You've clearly done your homework on Milat.

I don't want to derail this thread so this will be my last mention of Milat, but I highly recommend people find 51 minutes to listen to this first class interview with Clive Small (the man who headed up the investigation into backpacker killings) and an ABC journo.
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/05/01/3995857.htm?site=conversations

I cannot wait for the day we get a similar interview about the CSK as it will answer so many of the questions we can only speculate on. Small said something that I never considered (I guess that's why he's a cop and I'm not) is that the cigarette butts at the scene may have been smoked by a victim. That thought was quite unsettling... waiting to die but being 'allowed' to smoke a few darts while you wait. Anyway just a theory I guess.

 

[Falco120]

Yep cut and polish doesn't need water if the car is clean but really, who on earth would hang around after disposing of a body to cut and polish a car in the dark? If you'd committed this crime what would you be needing to clean with such urgency that you'd be willing to risk extra time exposed at the disposal site? Perhaps the cargo bay of the wagon with some kind of cleaner. Assuming it had rubber matting you might clean that up. Still would have had to have been prepared with stored water in advance.

My apologies if this sounds a bit gruesome, Could the CSK laid his victims face down across the bonnet of the car to have his way with them? He may have needed to wash vomit and blood off? IMO He may have realised this after his first time and started carrying car cleaning stuff, rags, polish and a container of water in his boot.
(I do feel sad that I am thinking in this way, but when looking into this sort of crime you have to be realistic and somewhat desensitised)

 

[CP345]

My apologies if this sounds a bit gruesome, Could the CSK laid his victims face down across the bonnet of the car to have his way with them? He may have needed to wash vomit and blood off? IMO He may have realised this after his first time and started carrying car cleaning stuff, rags, polish and a container of water in his boot.
(I do feel sad that I am thinking in this way, but when looking into this sort of crime you have to be realistic and somewhat desensitised)

The think that makes this unlikely in my view is the fact that the sites the victims were found were so far away from the abduction point. I'd suggest he wouldn't have been too keen taking the risk of transporting a live victim that far. If he did he'd have had to have found an isolated spot to restrain them first. Why not just do what he was planning there?

 

[Falco120]

The think that makes this unlikely in my view is the fact that the sites the victims were found were so far away from the abduction point. I'd suggest he wouldn't have been too keen taking the risk of transporting a live victim that far. If he did he'd have had to have found an isolated spot to restrain them first. Why not just do what he was planning there?

Unless, he knocked them out first somehow.

 

[JoWa]

yes, i agree with all your possibilities, OneSmallStep, as i don't believe whoever responsible would have hung about for a single moment longer than it took to dispose. i can only imagine that part of the crime would have happened as quickly as possible
...but then what?
did they return from whence they came?
or continue their journey to a further destination?

IMO, there's a strong possibility CSK did the bulk of his cleaning up casually, prior to disposal, and i can think of no better place than on their own front lawn, where trace of evidence would be washed into the grass; perhaps even the missing clothes were used to blatently wax&polish in full view of neighbours and passers by.

i'm not sold on the notion of him having finalised his deed by the dawn following abduction, it would have afforded very little time, and to my way of thinking, driving offbeat paths through the dark hours could lend itself more to being noticed with an increased risk of being stop-checked by any cruising patrol.
i was onced pulled over for nothing more than being on a country road during the wee hours - but at no time has my vehicle ever been searched, and i would love to know more about the circumstance surrounding the vehicle checked by Con Bayens (with kit and plastic lined boot) ...where and WHY was it stopped(?) and searched? and WHYtf is/was the officer persistent in his claim that it was not thoroughly followed up sufficiently?
[emoji887]

Bayens worked on the prostitute task force from 2000-2002. The car was in highgate in a well known area for picking up prostitutes, the man was loitering next to his car. Bayens reported it to Macro and was told not to worry because they had their man (LW).
I'm not sure why creepy guy wasn't followed up as someone up to no good. Seems strange that they just let him go back into obscurity, CSK wasn't the only murderer/rapist in Perth.


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[janwa]

My apologies if this sounds a bit gruesome, Could the CSK laid his victims face down across the bonnet of the car to have his way with them? He may have needed to wash vomit and blood off? IMO He may have realised this after his first time and started carrying car cleaning stuff, rags, polish and a container of water in his boot.
(I do feel sad that I am thinking in this way, but when looking into this sort of crime you have to be realistic and somewhat desensitised)

No apology needed it is gruesome and if it is not spoken of in it's true terms what's the point of this web site. I had not thought of the positioning and your post caused someone to consider it and you to then comment on the possibility of the girls being knocked out. This caused me to think of how drugs have been used in cases I have been involved with. And I'm not talking about PBS authorised or prescribed doses.

 

[petedavo.au]

Bayens worked on the prostitute task force from 2000-2002. The car was in highgate in a well known area for picking up prostitutes, the man was loitering next to his car. Bayens reported it to Macro and was told not to worry because they had their man (LW).
I'm not sure why creepy guy wasn't followed up as someone up to no good. Seems strange that they just let him go back into obscurity, CSK wasn't the only murderer/rapist in Perth.


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When a taskforce is averaging 30-40 hours of overtime per week and they're looking g forward to making an arrest and wrapping up a case so they can see their kids, it's probable that Confirmation Bias can creep into decisions that involve choosing to investigate alternative suspects IMO.
There's an article on Investigative Biases in an AIPOL http://www.aipol.org/ journal recently

This is another magazine worth getting into https://apjl.com.au

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[Moustachio]

IMO using TRG to make arrest was suitable given the impact this case has had on family, friends, locals, and inter/national audiences.

Wouldn't surprise me if the accused had illegal firearms hidden in his home.

I thought one of the victims had been stabbed multiple times.

= armed potentially dangerous suspect = TRG

 

[SherlockSleuth]

After listening to Clive Small last night, I'm now open to the idea that BRE may have had some understanding that police were sniffing around. It seems possible that police would have spoken with associates, friends, colleagues & family in the lead up to his arrest & that someone would've passed this info onto him.

 

[Owlie]

CSK more reminds me of Adrian Bayley than Ivan Milat.
Ivan Milat enjoyed the hunting and killing aspect. I believe CSK was sexually motivated and killed just to avoid detection as he had a few too many close calls earlier on with the Huntingdale and KK rapes.
I believe thats the period police need to be looking at more. He was young and making mistakes. I don't doubt there were more rapes and attempted abductions in that period.

I do believe JB is a good probability of being a CSK victim. Still the same general area and not long after the others. He had to move on. Change MO.He would have been a total idiot to continue on in Claremont. Was already pretty damn brazen to take CG .

It seems to me when he had wives he didn't commit these atrocities. Could just be he didn't have the home to himself or didn't want to be questioned about his late night out and sudden need to clean the car thoroughly the next day...maybe having a wife met his needs and he didn't feel the urge to attack random strangers .
Adrian Bayley seemed to attack when he was having relationship issues or single which is one main reason I compare the two. ABs victims played along with his depravity for the most part. Jill apparently did not-which is why he apparently got mad and had to strangle her. This wasn't planned. I doubt CSK planned to kill his first either . For him however-it was probably as simple as she may have seen his face.
Its about the power to these sorts. They don't like people not cooperating and doing as they are telling them. They're already mad at the loss of control with their girlfriends /wives. CSK definitely seems to fit from the things I have seen online that he has written.

Who really knows in the end. He may well have ended up enjoying killing and that's what it was about. If so,there are no doubt more victims.


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Great post!


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[petedavo.au]

I thought one of the victims had been stabbed multiple times.

= armed potentially dangerous suspect = TRG

Have you seen what Kmart and BCF sell in Fishing tackle aisles? BRE was known to be a keen fisherman. http://www.bcf.com.au/Product/Shimano-Fillet-Knife/108574?menuFrom=30702

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[mandy.maree]

Have you seen what Kmart and BCF sell in Fishing tackle aisles? BRE was known to be a keen fisherman. http://www.bcf.com.au/Product/Shimano-Fillet-Knife/108574?menuFrom=30702

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This is why I was asking about JR being found near a fishing spot or not. Wouldn't have seemed odd if he was caught driving out of there at an odd hour with his "fishing" supplies.
Since she wasn't near such a spot however, I still believe he had his "fishing" equipment with him regardless.
Would have been quite risky to drive around with ropes/knives etc at the time had he not had an excuse .
Plus would give him a great excuse to be out driving in odd areas either way. Hes just been on a fishing trip.
Has to clean his car out thoroughly the next day to get rid of the smell of those fish too.
The man is not an idiot. I can see him putting a bit of thought into it all.

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[silver tongue]

BRE is 6ft plus ,two pickhandles across the shoulders
1 crack on the jaw from him would knock most blokes out let alone a 50\60 kg young women maybe he spotted the girls alone parked up nearby
he could of strolled up asked the time then crunch, pulled them out of sight got his car threw them in the boot and gone
what does everyone else think

 

[Sutton]

BRE is 6ft plus ,two pickhandles across the shoulders
1 crack on the jaw from him would knock most blokes out let alone a 50\60 kg young women maybe he spotted the girls alone parked up nearby
he could of strolled up asked the time then crunch, pulled them out of sight got his car threw them in the boot and gone
what does everyone else think

I think something like this is probably how it all went down. It could happen very fast.

 

[Moustachio]

I can't think of any trials I have seen televised in Australia. Do we even do that here? I thought that was an American thing.
We usually get crappy drawings from a sketch artist and a basic rundown of the day's highlights.


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It has been done on occasion, exceptionally.