Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[Foolio79]

Only going by what I was told. I never said this was in the Prosecution's brief of evidence,it was how they matched him initially. So let me be very clear about this, you are saying that they had familial DNA (as discussed previously) and then got the TRG to storm in to BE home then get the DNA after when they had probabale cause??

Probable cause is an American legal concept and is in their constitution. Not sure what the relevance is here?

 

[Foolio79]

Hi RETPI

I never said WAPOL if you refer back, I did say police. I draw your attention to where informal collection of genetic samples have been used in other states. In R v Nicola (NSW) police collected a styrofoam cup from a suspect. In R v Phuc (VIC) police collected cigarettes from a bin. I can probably chase up some WA cases for you from the law library in the next few weeks.

Obtaining evidence from a public bin is vastly different to police setting up a drug testing station for the sole purpose of obtaining someones DNA by deception.

 

[petedavo.au]

Probable cause is an American legal concept and is in their constitution. Not sure what the relevance is here?

Called "reasonable suspicion" here.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[RETPI]

Hi RETPI

I never said WAPOL if you refer back, I did say police. I draw your attention to where informal collection of genetic samples have been used in other states. In R v Nicola (NSW) police collected a styrofoam cup from a suspect. In R v Phuc (VIC) police collected cigarettes from a bin. I can probably chase up some WA cases for you from the law library in the next few weeks.

No, but I did.

Context, is entirely relevant here. So, I will redirect:

Were the Police Officers that allegedly obtained BRE’s DNA via a drug swab, Western Australia Police Officers or were they from another jurisdiction?

 

[Guccigal]

Hi Guccigal :seeya:

Just wanting to get clear here.

So your 'source' is saying they had BRE's DNA before his arrest?

This is contradictory to what has been published in MSM which says only familial DNA was collected pre-arrest and it was after his arrest that BRE's DNA was tested.....

(But obviously, MSM may not be revealing everything to us.)

I am not saying, that WAPOL used familial DNA as an investigative tool, although I am aware that one of the UK experts they are using, is well versed in its use.

However, some media reports have alluded to that technique being used. They may or may not be correct.

These reports have led people to speculate as to which relative had a docket and was on the DNA database.

It appears that the Huntingdale attempted rape, provided them with further investigative lines of inquiry that were already on file.

WAPOL would have looked closely at BRE to determine if he had motive, the opportunity and the means to carry out the alleged crimes.

You will recall, WAPOL had allegedly already identified, that fabric from a White VS Series 1 Holden Commodore Station Wagon was linked to one of the crimes scenes (JR).

A White VS Station Wagon, allegedly driven by BRE in the 90’s was seized by WAPOL on the same day, so obviously, they had done their homework and believed they had sufficient grounds to act.

WAPOL are not permitted to run around surreptitiously obtaining people’s DNA, they must adhere to strict guidelines.

So I am saying, they didn’t obtain his DNA illegally, as some have suggested.

The use of the TRG is standard procedure, when executing a warrant that may involve a potentially violent and/or armed offender.

Obtaining evidence from a public bin is vastly different to police setting up a drug testing station for the sole purpose of obtaining someones DNA by deception.

Actually no Foolio, R v Daley (NSW Supreme Court 2001), police set up a RBT unit to collect DNA from the plastic tube you throw away. The suspect was an alleged sexual offender at the time. This is the last I will comment on this matter, and yes probable cause is amercian, but I'm referring to the equivalent standard here.

 

[JoWa]

I am not saying, that WAPOL used familial DNA as an investigative tool, although I am aware that one of the UK experts they are using, is well versed in its use.

However, some media reports have alluded to that technique being used. They may or may not be correct.

These reports have led people to speculate as to which relative had a docket and was on the DNA database.

It appears that the Huntingdale attempted rape, provided them with further investigative lines of inquiry that were already on file.

WAPOL would have looked closely at BRE to determine if he had motive, the opportunity and the means to carry out the alleged crimes.

You will recall, WAPOL had allegedly already identified, that fabric from a White VS Series 1 Holden Commodore Station Wagon was linked to one of the crimes scenes (JR).

A White VS Station Wagon, allegedly driven by BRE in the 90’s was seized by WAPOL on the same day, so obviously, they had done their homework and believed they had sufficient grounds to act.

WAPOL are not permitted to run around surreptitiously obtaining people’s DNA, they must adhere to strict guidelines.

So I am saying, they didn’t obtain his DNA illegally, as some have suggested.

The use of the TRG is standard procedure, when executing a warrant that may involve a potentially violent and/or armed offender.

To add to you excellent post, I looked up Dr Jonathan Whittaker at link below.

Not only does he work with familial DNA but also LCN DNA and DNA profiling. I wonder if he provided the physical appearance to police to help narrow their focus.

http://www.principalforensicservices.com/jonathan-whitaker-dna-expert/


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[stirling hwy]

The only reason they would have followed that up is to charge the mongrels with fraud.

Spot on, these frauds have a lot to answer for I know for a fact these pieces of filth cause a lot of angst and heartache for one of the families.

 

[petedavo.au]

Obtaining evidence from a public bin is vastly different to police setting up a drug testing station for the sole purpose of obtaining someones DNA by deception.

Since Ridgeway v. The Queen, and Bunning v. Cross, et el Commonwealth and State laws were changed in regards to admissibility of unlawfully obtained evidence

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[Eaglette]

Frankie and any other VI; can you please give us any information on whether BRE
Was a "club goer" ?
Thought he was a ladies man ?
What age he first had a girlfriend ?
Was a loner ?
Was close to his mother ?
Why his 1st marriage failed ?
Why his 2nd marriage failed ?
Whether any of his family (other than the stepdaughter) are visiting him in Hakea?

 

[CSK?]

Could you direct me to court cases where it was shown that WAPOL has obtained evidentiary DNA from an alleged offender by covert means?

I think the point that Gucci is trying to make and I do share the same opinion that it happens is that WAPOL will covertly seek DNA evidence in an attempt to confirm their own suspicions. This DNA evidence will never be entered into court because of the manner it was obtained. But I can see police if not in this case in others illegaly taking DNA samples in order to confirm if they are onto the right suspect or not.


As an example lets pretend they did use illegal tactics to gain BRE's DNA, this would then give them irrifutable evidence that BRE was their guy, from here they act on the arrest, after the arrest they take a LEGAL sample which will be the DNA evidence used in court.


I am a skeptic of Gucci's claims of how the covert sample was gained for obvious reasons (as pointed out she has claimed a lot of links to the case, and even without these, these threads have been inundated with false claims). But I do think it is very likely an illegal sample of either BRE's or familial DNA had been obtained as part of the investigative process.

RETPI, I do agree that you won't find illegal DNA in court records and you make a valid argument, but I can assure you that police have and continue to sometimes operate outside of the law, which I am sure you know does happen.

I am not sure they would go to such elaborate measures as setting up a fake roadside drug and alcohol station when one undercover cop waiting for BRE to discard a drink can or napkin could achieve the same result.

 

[Observe&Report]

While there are laws put in place to protect civil liberties, there are always loopholes. Not all illegally obtained evidence gets thrown out of court, while the majority may, there are still cases in which the use of illegally obtained DNA has been granted.

Criminal Law (Forensic procedures) ACT 2007

In relation to the taking of forensic samples under the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Act 2007, different rules apply depending on whether the person to undertake the procedure is a suspect or an offender. Any other forensic procedure conducted on a person suspected of having committed a serious offence (aside from a simple forensic procedure) requires authorisation by a senior police officer. With a suspects procedure, simple forensic procedures can be carried out on any person suspected of committing a serious offence. In making a decision about an order for an "illegal" forensic procedure, a senior police officer must be satisfied there are reasonable grounds to suspect the person of the serious offence, the procedure could produce evidence of value to the investigation, and the public interest weighs in favour of obtaining evidence of the offence.

Criminal investigation (Identifying people) ACT 2002

Section 86 states that regardless of how the evidence was obtained, The court may decide to admit the evidence if it is satisfied that the desirability of admitting the evidence outweighs the undesirability of admitting the evidence. Other considerations include but are not limited to the seriousness of the offence in respect of which the evidence is relevant and the probative value of the evidence. In most circumstances the evidence will be dismissed and by most I mean 99%, but in some cases the judge will allow the said evidence. In Australia, the various public policy objectives of the other justice systems collectively underlay the discretion to exclude illegally obtained evidence. In Bunning v Cross the Australian High Court ruled that trial judges have a discretion to reject illegally or unfairly obtained evidence after considering these competing public policy requirements and weighing them against each other. In doing so, the majority affirmed that the statement of Barwick CJ in R v Ireland represented the law of Australia.

Factors that are relevant to the exercise of the discretion include:
(a) the seriousness of the offence;
(b) the cogency of the evidence;
(c) the nature of the criminality,
(d) the ease with which the evidence could have been obtained legally; and
(e) whether an examination of the legislation indicates a deliberate intent on the part of the legislature to circumscribe the power of the police in the interests of the public.

Trial judges are able to give consideration to competing public policy objectives in light of the facts of individual cases and reach a decision on those facts. The Bunning v Cross discretion applies to confessional evidence as well as evidence procured in consequence of illegal searches and unlawful acts.

In relation to the taking of forensic samples under the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Act 2007, different rules apply depending on whether the person to undertake the procedure is a suspect, an offender, a victim or a volunteer.

The Road Traffic Act can also be used to obtain DNA samples which is relevant to the original posters claims of how a sample was obtained.

 

[7SJ707]

I believe BREs original hair colour was a sandy or "mousey brown " colour. In his Crocs football photos he seems to be dying his hair a jet black. However it has been speculated he also has chipped and broken teeth in these photos.
IF so, it seems a contradiction that a man who is "vain" enough to dye his hair, cares less about repairing his teeth.He must have had the resources and health insurance to get dental work done should he wish.
Forensic odontology includes the science of identifying an attacker from the bite marks left on victims ,often on the face, neck, breast, thigh or buttock.
Many sex attackers bite their victims, Ted Bundy who prided himself on leaving no forensic evidence for investigators was partly brought undone by prosecutors evidence relating to bite marks left on one of his victims during his incomprehensible Chi Omega sorority rampage,,,

 

[petedavo.au]

Yep. correct. Before people start making assertions about legality of evidence, they should do some web sleuthing.
WA is not America.

http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/INFOR...CERS/Pages/Policepowerstoarrestanddetain.aspx

http://forensic-review.com.au/what-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-law/

Or google

reasonable suspicion, identifying particulars, major crime, western australia

 

[lampformypath]

I believe BREs original hair colour was a sandy or "mousey brown " colour. In his Crocs football photos he seems to be dying his hair a jet black. However it has been speculated he also has chipped and broken teeth in these photos.
IF so, it seems a contradiction that a man who is "vain" enough to dye his hair, cares less about repairing his teeth.He must have had the resources and health insurance to get dental work done should he wish.
Forensic odontology includes the science of identifying an attacker from the bite marks left on victims ,often on the face, neck, breast, thigh or buttock.
Many sex attackers bite their victims, Ted Bundy who prided himself on leaving no forensic evidence for investigators was partly brought undone by prosecutors evidence relating to bite marks left on one of his victims during his incomprehensible Chi Omega sorority rampage,,,

That is so true about Bundy, I watched a long doco about him the other day, they say he may have killed up to 100 people! He was just so sick, we won't go into it here, but the dentistry bit is fascinating and entirely possible. And the reason he (BRE) didn't go to the dentist when he had the funds, was vain etc. he was too bloody scared of pain!:chicken: There are many people who have teeth flapping in the breeze, falling out of their heads, and they will not go to a dentist when they can easily afford and definitely need to. I remember a famous Theatre Arts Director I worked with in WA who had several teeth hanging out of his head, quite frightening to watch as they waved about whilst he was barking orders. He never did get them fixed and he was very much high profile and in the public eye, and yes, he dyed his hair to look "younger" too!

 

[7SJ707]

Really do have to have a wry smile at sleuths who have so much faith in the law, the system and citizens so called "rights" that they doubt police would have surreptitiously obtained BRE's dna from a bogus breath testing station or the like,,,, they would have done it every day ,and twice on Sundays once they got this bloke in their sights..we are not talking about a jaywalker here... it is the CSK , probably Australias most wanted and a bloke who had rubbed WAPOLs nose in it for the last thirty years.
"Noble cause' coppers would have been tripping over themselves to get a sample and a test done on the sly.
The level of electronic and physical surveillance would have been so intense the dog squad would have known what colour knickers he had on on any given day.....
If WAPOL did go with an "Operation Lorimer' style approach it is interesting that BREs stepdaughter reportedly used to stay over occasionally at the house . even after her mother had left..... lots of opportunitys for "deep and meaningful" heart to heart conversations there....some of the best blabbing gleaned from Lorimer was Bandali Debs talking to his concerned daughter,,,,,,
All JMO and theory...

 

[RETPI]

I think the point that Gucci is trying to make and I do share the same opinion that it happens is that WAPOL will covertly seek DNA evidence in an attempt to confirm their own suspicions. This DNA evidence will never be entered into court because of the manner it was obtained. But I can see police if not in this case in others illegaly taking DNA samples in order to confirm if they are onto the right suspect or not.


As an example lets pretend they did use illegal tactics to gain BRE's DNA, this would then give them irrifutable evidence that BRE was their guy, from here they act on the arrest, after the arrest they take a LEGAL sample which will be the DNA evidence used in court.


I am a skeptic of Gucci's claims of how the covert sample was gained for obvious reasons (as pointed out she has claimed a lot of links to the case, and even without these, these threads have been inundated with false claims). But I do think it is very likely an illegal sample of either BRE's or familial DNA had been obtained as part of the investigative process.

RETPI, I do agree that you won't find illegal DNA in court records and you make a valid argument, but I can assure you that police have and continue to sometimes operate outside of the law, which I am sure you know does happen.

I am not sure they would go to such elaborate measures as setting up a fake roadside drug and alcohol station when one undercover cop waiting for BRE to discard a drink can or napkin could achieve the same result.

So, the new WAPOL crime fighting strategy is:

If you don’t have the suspected offender on the DNA data base.

You covertly obtain their DNA illegally. You then ask the Chem Centre to be complicit in the crime.

If you get a match, you get the TRG to break down the door.

You don’t tell them of course, about the illegal DNA, as then you’d have even more Officers who run the risk of later committing perjury.

You, then obtain a lawful sample and all’s good.

You tell the lab to destroy the illegal evidence, of course.

Well, interesting times ahead and on that basis, we should be seeing tons more cases coming to Court and interesting defences.

“Could you explain to the Court, how your DNA came to be on the victim”?

“Well, your Honour, a funny thing happened a few weeks ago, I was walking down the road and felt a few of my hairs being pulled and I noticed there was a Policeman walking behind me, they must have planted it”.

The sceptic in me, says they have enough trouble testing exhibits they have obtained legally.

Who could forget Dante ARTHURS untested shorts from a previous crime, that weren’t tested until after he committed a murder?

Even BRE’s brief will remember that, as he prosecuted ARTHURS.

When you do a return to basics, you ask yourself.

Why did the person become a suspect in the first place, sufficient to warrant obtaining this alleged illegal DNA?

If the suspicion was sufficient to carry out an alleged illegal act, Police would have been able to request a legal sample anyway.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

That is so true about Bundy, I watched a long doco about him the other day, they say he may have killed up to 100 people! He was just so sick, we won't go into it here, but the dentistry bit is fascinating and entirely possible. And the reason he (BRE) didn't go to the dentist when he had the funds, was vain etc. he was too bloody scared of pain!:chicken: There are many people who have teeth flapping in the breeze, falling out of their heads, and they will not go to a dentist when they can easily afford and definitely need to. I remember a famous Theatre Arts Director I worked with in WA who had several teeth hanging out of his head, quite frightening to watch as they waived about whilst he was barking orders. He never did get them fixed and he was very much high profile and in the public eye, and yes, he dyed his hair to look "younger" too!

If the alleged CSK BRE avoided the dentist, then IMO this would be 100% about:
- not providing opportunity for anyone to 'map' his dental bite; and
- not providing access to his saliva and therefore 'covert' collection of DNA.

I'm also guessing BRE avoided:
- pubs/clubs with ID/camera recognition as a pre-requisite of entry;
- donating sperm;
- donating blood; or
- even having blood tests!
All for the same reasons of staying hidden and remaining under the radar!!!!!

 

[CP345]

Really do have to have a wry smile at sleuths who have so much faith in the law, the system and citizens so called "rights" that they doubt police would have surreptitiously obtained BRE's dna from a bogus breath testing station or the like,,,, they would have done it every day ,and twice on Sundays once they got this bloke in their sights..we are not talking about a jaywalker here... it is the CSK , probably Australias most wanted and a bloke who had rubbed WAPOLs nose in it for the last thirty years.
"Noble cause' coppers would have been tripping over themselves to get a sample and a test done on the sly.
The level of electronic and physical surveillance would have been so intense the dog squad would have known what colour knickers he had on on any given day.....
If WAPOL did go with an "Operation Lorimer' style approach it is interesting that BREs stepdaughter reportedly used to stay over occasionally at the house . even after her mother had left..... lots of opportunitys for "deep and meaningful" heart to heart conversations there....some of the best blabbing gleaned from Lorimer was Bandali Debs talking to his concerned daughter,,,,,,
All JMO and theory...

Hello red emperor aka 1980s number plate, home of the Americas Cup. Nice to see you back. I agree that WAPOL could well have sneakily confirmed the DNA before the arrest. So many ways this could have been done I won't waste time guessing. If I'm going to hit a one in a million shot I'll save it for lotto this weekend. As for having mousy brown hair I can't agree. Pictures from his school days, although not the best, show dark hair. I've also seen a picture of him circa 2001/02 which he was using as a Facebook profile pic around 2010. Someone using a photo 9 years old as a profile pic is probably vain, or at least conscious of aging. I think he's just trying to hide the greys. Still, I'd rather go grey than bald. Just for Men is much more affordable than advanced Hair. Yeah yeah.

As for the teeth, I've seen the photo where his front tooth is very Lloyd Christmas but I've seen others where it looks fine. Think it might be just a bad picture.

All JMO and Theory

 

[lampformypath]

Really do have to have a wry smile at sleuths who have so much faith in the law, the system and citizens so called "rights" that they doubt police would have surreptitiously obtained BRE's dna from a bogus breath testing station or the like,,,, they would have done it every day ,and twice on Sundays once they got this bloke in their sights..we are not talking about a jaywalker here... it is the CSK , probably Australias most wanted and a bloke who had rubbed WAPOLs nose in it for the last thirty years.
"Noble cause' coppers would have been tripping over themselves to get a sample and a test done on the sly.
The level of electronic and physical surveillance would have been so intense the dog squad would have known what colour knickers he had on on any given day.....
If WAPOL did go with an "Operation Lorimer' style approach it is interesting that BREs stepdaughter reportedly used to stay over occasionally at the house . even after her mother had left..... lots of opportunitys for "deep and meaningful" heart to heart conversations there....some of the best blabbing gleaned from Lorimer was Bandali Debs talking to his concerned daughter,,,,,,
All JMO and theory...

Thank you 7SJ707! What a revolting "man"! I've put a link down here for everyone to read about this Lorimer "creature" as they call him. A brilliantly written article about a case I hadn't even heard of, and I heard "echoes" of this case running through the article. Disgusting!

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/rotten-to-the-core-and-now-rotting-in-jail-20120302-1u82b.html

 

[RETPI]

I am not trying to start an argument but would it please be possible for the conversation on witchcraft, black magic & satanism to be taken to a private discussion. It gets disruptive in regards to the case at hand, and with there being absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest satanism is relevant to this case I think it completely unfounded and out of place for the Claremont serial killer thread.

Robert ADAMS, the murderer of Nurse, Mary WALLACE in 1983 provides a good Australian case study of a single offender, who was able to restrain victims by himself.

This is also someone who was a serial rapist, who escalated to kill and was eventually undone by DNA.

In his instance, despite witnesses linking the victim to the offender and observing him washing his vehicle, it took DNA via hair strands found in his boot to finally see him arrested for the murder.

ADAMS was arrested in December 2013 and found guilty in November 2016.

A crime thirty years old and then a three year journey (from the time of his arrest) to finally see justice done.

We also may have three years to discuss the latest CSK news, so I don't mind if we get off track now and then, as long as we get back on track.