Found Deceased Australia - Gary Tweddle, 23, Blue Mountains NSW, 16 July 2013 - #3

[AppleSnail]

I actually believe very little of what the colleagues initially reported about the phone call. If he was in peril or freaking out on the phone or 'lost in the bush', would anyone wait for over 3 hours to help them or get them help? I don't think so.

RSBM

SouthAussie - although I share your feelings about the actual content of the 17-minute call versus what LE and MSM were told and reported, I think these guys are genuine good friends, and did not wait three hours to take action.

"Hotel guests and residents heard noises near the resort and possibly bins being knocked over in nearby Watkins Road between midnight and 2am but police are not sure whether the sounds came from the missing man or from the colleagues calling out to him." BBM
http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com....-gary-tweddle/

There is implication here that more than one colleague got out there to look for him after losing contact with GT and before contacting LE.

Also, (not that you made this point, SouthAussie) I don't think the colleagues asking AH to call in a Missing Persons was in any way "covering their *advertiser censored**es". Hunch may know this: does it have to be a family member or co-habitee to make such a call in NSW?

All MOO

 

[bearbear]

maybe gary did ring pambos at 10pm and agreed to meet at around midnight but ended up getting into a fight or argument with collegues at the fairmont and was chased or ran out in a rage, upset, kicked or fell into the bins, saw a car, it wasnt pambos, so took off angry?
but then he rang his friiend at 12.20, early reports said he told them he was separated from his group, what group? was the friend he first rang pambos? then the 17 min call to his collegues saying he was lost in bush?
did pambos actually make it to leura and then go home after not meeting up with gary? what happened to gary between midnight and 2am?
i wonder what fairmont cctv footage shows, if his collegues went looking for him, or if there was an altercation, or pambos pulling into the driveway?

 

[Xantara]

RSBM

SouthAussie - although I share your feelings about the actual content of the 17-minute call versus what LE and MSM were told and reported, I think these guys are genuine good friends, and did not wait three hours to take action.



There is implication here that more than on colleague got out there to look for him after losing contact and before contacting LE.

Also, (not that you made this point, SouthAussie) I don't think the colleagues asking AH to call in a Missing Persons was in any way "covering their *advertiser censored**es". Hunch may know this: does it have to be a family member or co-habitee to make such a call in NSW?

I think they needed to get in contact with Anika so that she could provide a good photo of Gary to the police. A photo is one of the most important things that is required immediately when reporting someone missing. She would have had to take it to the police and perhaps she was required to provide other information too, like info about family etc, which the colleagues may not have had on them.

 

[FigTree]

RSBM
There is implication here that more than one colleague got out there to look for him after losing contact with GT and before contacting LE.

Also, (not that you made this point, SouthAussie) I don't think the colleagues asking AH to call in a Missing Persons was in any way "covering their *advertiser censored**es". Hunch may know this: does it have to be a family member or co-habitee to make such a call in NSW?

All MOO

After going back over the media reports I cannot see one report stating that his colleagues went out of the Hotel to look for Gary after the phone call.
There are though reports of Oracle staff being on the search in the days later - even helping man the search party logistics from the Command Post in the Fairmont Car Park.

The news does indicate that Hotel Guests and Residents heard noises near the Hotel - though I am at odds what exactly the noises were - if it was voices (Gary talking with someone or on his phone), bins, 'a sound unrecognizable', or colleagues calling out "Gary". If it was someone calling out 'Gary' - that is different to a bin being knocked over.

Hotel guests and residents heard noises near the resort and possibly bins being knocked over in nearby Watkins Road between midnight and 2am but police are not sure whether the sounds came from the missing man or from the colleagues calling out to him.

As for the Missing Persons Report, I do believe that there was some form of measured cover - anyone can make a report to Police about a Missing Person .

Looking at the timeline -

At around Midnight - Gary said he would be back in a minute - that was after he left the room to go downstairs to the reception area and then left the Resort. He was not going to be long.
20 minutes later - The phone call between Gary and colleagues was at 12:20 - 12:37am. He was telling them he was lost - he sounded if he was running and jumping.

Colleagues knew why Gary left the Hotel -
They knew he was meeting someone.
They were alerted by Gary that he was lost.
The colleagues phoned Anika Haigh at 3:30am
The report to Police that Gary was missing was sometime after 3.30am

At 3.30am, Ms Haigh received a phone call that made her stomach lurch. ''That phone call has changed my life.

3 Hours went past after the last ''msm reported' contact before the decision was made to call Gary's girlfriend and tell her Gary was lost. It doesn't say they rang to tell her to call the Police because Gary was lost.
Under the circumstances, I think it was Anika who made the decision to make a report after finding out all the details.

The group hadn't been at the Hotel 24hrs at this stage - I doubt the colleagues knew what to do or what Oracle protocol was for this sort of thing happening.
JMO

 

[Derryn Hunch]

Also, (not that you made this point, SouthAussie) I don't think the colleagues asking AH to call in a Missing Persons was in any way "covering their *advertiser censored**es". Hunch may know this: does it have to be a family member or co-habitee to make such a call in NSW?

All MOO

It has to be filed *at* a police station, as in, you physically need to go in to the station and file it in person and provide a significant amount of detail, so I imagine in this case they felt it best if Anikka filed the report the next morning when he still hadn't turned up...

 

[SouthAussie]

It has to be filed *at* a police station, as in, you physically need to go in to the station and file it in person and provide a significant amount of detail, so I imagine in this case they felt it best if Anikka filed the report the next morning when he still hadn't turned up...

True ... and does not have to be filed by a family member ... only a responsible person (so senior staff member at Fairmont could have done it right at the local police station).

Photos and other details can follow the initial report. There are plenty of cases where a report is filed without a photo or much detail (exact height/weight/etc) at all, then the details get added as they become available.

I think the guys rang Anika to see if Gary had gone home for some reason, and to let her decide what to do if he hadn't.

 

[AppleSnail]

After going back over the media reports I cannot see one report stating that his colleagues went out of the Hotel to look for Gary after the phone call.
There are though reports of Oracle staff being on the search in the days later - even helping man the search party logistics from the Command Post in the Fairmont Car Park.

The news does indicate that Hotel Guests and Residents heard noises near the Hotel - though I am at odds what exactly the noises were - if it was voices (Gary talking with someone or on his phone), bins, 'a sound unrecognizable', or colleagues calling out "Gary". If it was someone calling out 'Gary' - that is different to a bin being knocked over.




As for the Missing Persons Report, I do believe that there was some form of measured cover - anyone can make a report to Police about a Missing Person .

Looking at the timeline -

At around Midnight - Gary said he would be back in a minute - that was after he left the room to go downstairs to the reception area and then left the Resort. He was not going to be long.
20 minutes later - The phone call between Gary and colleagues was at 12:20 - 12:37am. He was telling them he was lost - he sounded if he was running and jumping.

Colleagues knew why Gary left the Hotel -
They knew he was meeting someone.
They were alerted by Gary that he was lost.
The colleagues phoned Anika Haigh at 3:30am
The report to Police that Gary was missing was sometime after 3.30am



3 Hours went past after the last ''msm reported' contact before the decision was made to call Gary's girlfriend and tell her Gary was lost. It doesn't say they rang to tell her to call the Police because Gary was lost.
Under the circumstances, I think it was Anika who made the decision to make a report after finding out all the details.

The group hadn't been at the Hotel 24hrs at this stage - I doubt the colleagues knew what to do or what Oracle protocol was for this sort of thing happening.
JMO

Thank you FigTree for the thoughtful and detailed response, you've really helped me to clarify the three key (IMO) questions that need to be answered:

What was the catalyst for GT's decision to leave that hotel room, and the manner in which he left?

What was said or heard in the 17-minute call that suggested a mortal risk to GT's wellbeing (or, why didn't they just retire thinking they'd see GT at breakfast, perhaps looking a bit worse-for-wear?)?

Was there any phone activity at, or around, 2am (say), and was this activity before or after GT's awful fall?

Absolutely all my opinion.

 

[FigTree]

Thank you FigTree for the thoughtful and detailed response, you've really helped me to clarify the three key (IMO) questions that need to be answered:

What was the catalyst for GT's decision to leave that hotel room, and the manner in which he left?

What was said or heard in the 17-minute call that suggested a mortal risk to GT's wellbeing (or, why didn't they just retire thinking they'd see GT at breakfast, perhaps looking a bit worse-for-wear?)?

Was there any phone activity at, or around, 2am (say), and was this activity before or after GT's awful fall?

Absolutely all my opinion.

That 17 minute call is definitely a point of interest - 5 people talking in a 17 minutes conversation - and the reports are basically a few sentences of what was reportedly said - not much at all there. It interests me too.

Maybe they would have retired for the night (maybe some did) before someone decided it would be better to let someone know whats going on, and they decided to ring Anika. Maybe Anika made the report because she knew more about what type of relationship Gary had with Pambos? Or what he was doing ie: his reported behaviour/reaction.
It begs the question - is 3 hours a long time or a short time under the circumstances of that night?

I also wonder how many calls were made by others trying to reach Gary that night? possibly there were quite a few voicemails and messages left to his phone from waiting colleagues.

And the time of the last call from his phone is still a mystery - even though the last ping was a 3.00am - its more about what activity came from his phone after that. It hasn't been reported in msm.

Lots of questions still - and we still dont know why Gary ended up at Sweet Dreams

 

[Derryn Hunch]

...and they decided to ring Anika. Maybe Anika made the report because she knew more about what type of relationship Gary had with Pambos? Or what he was doing ie: his reported behaviour/reaction.

...maybe Gary had a history of drug induced psychosis? Unfortunately drug induced psychosis is a bit like what I like to describe as a green stick... Not everyone is prone to it, but a person who is prone to it can take drugs a number of times prior to ever having an episode .... "Bending the stick" so to speak... but once that stick cracks, its cracked for good... sure, you can stop taking the drugs and "unbend" the stick... let it straighten out and to the naked eye, the stick looks as good as new, the tiny breaks not apparent.. but the moment you re-introduce drugs into the system and try and "bend the stick" again, the cracks instantly re-appear with very little quantity required for this to happen...

Once broken, never the same... and if Gary had a history of this, then Anika would have been well aware I dare say.

 

[Derryn Hunch]

To that note - I've seen people with drug induced psychosis a number of times - it has pretty much *ALWAYS* been based on paranoia, usually that the people around them have been "out to get them" or "Against" them. It completely changes them as a person at the time they are in that state and rational thought is totally out the window.

 

[SouthAussie]

To that note - I've seen people with drug induced psychosis a number of times - it has pretty much *ALWAYS* been based on paranoia, usually that the people around them have been "out to get them" or "Against" them. It completely changes them as a person at the time they are in that state and rational thought is totally out the window.

So, do you think that a drug-induced psychosis could have sort of 'crept up' on Gary that night?

He seemed (relatively) fine when he left the Fairmont to go and meet someone on Watkins Road. We're assuming that he had none or was out of drugs and his desire to party-on was great, hence the urgency about getting drugs right then, that night.

If he'd had his last taste earlier in the night, got himself down to Watkins Road safely, was hanging out talking on the phone (seen by two witnesses) - could psychosis then creep in? I would have thought that the drug would wear off and effects reduce, rather than increase?

 

[Derryn Hunch]

So, do you think that a drug-induced psychosis could have sort of 'crept up' on Gary that night?

He seemed (relatively) fine when he left the Fairmont to go and meet someone on Watkins Road. We're assuming that he had none or was out of drugs and his desire to party-on was great, hence the urgency about getting drugs right then, that night.

If he'd had his last taste earlier in the night, got himself down to Watkins Road safely, was hanging out talking on the phone (seen by two witnesses) - could psychosis then creep in? I would have thought that the drug would wear off and effects reduce, rather than increase?

Yeh it usually creeps in after a few hours, or on the back end of things - so its entirely possible that it was already inevitable or even already slightly in effect before he left Fairmont - and by the time he was playing cat and mouse with his dealer out on the streets (or already coming down off the first lot of whatever was possibly had earlier in the night) his mind set might have changed and it went into full swing....

 

[Derryn Hunch]

Hypothetical:

At some point in the night, Gary goes into a state of drug induced psychosis - he's decided that Pambos is either out to get him or possibly a CPO (Covert Police Officer), this is why Pambos can't find him anywhere when he arrives up there after driving up from Sydney, as GT has gone into "escape and evasion" mode - hence the 17minute phone call consists of GT explaining to his friends back at the Fairmont that he's hiding, he doesn't know exactly where he is but he's not leading Pambos back to the hotel where they all are - and this is how he ends up legging it so far down the road to Sublime Point and into the bush... and possibly even tries to climb down the cliff onto that ledge in his attempts to hide/escape the perceived threat, inevitably slips and falls....

Also explains the language used by Anikka where she refers to it like he's playing "Hide and seek"...

 

[SouthAussie]

Could also explain Anika's comment about it being time for Gary to 'stop playing hide and seek now, and come home'. And could also explain why searchers were looking in odd places for Gary .. in sheds, back gardens, etc.

Thanks for your input, Derryn Hunch. It is helping me to logically understand things a lot better, which is what I personally need to do.

I guess Gary may have hidden somewhere warmish till 2-3am then decided he wasn't hidden well enough, and gone for a ledge.

Poor guy. If only someone had realised what could have been happening with Gary and called for help sooner

And, you're right, Anika may have seen this behaviour before (hide and seek) and realised the urgency of the situation.

I guess it can be confirmed, to a degree, in Gary's toxicology reports and if he was still carrying cash for drugs on him (though he may have hidden that too).

 

[bearbear]

i thought the paranoia and psychosis from cocaine use only really set in after the user had been binging heavily on it for months and was addicted to it, using it every day etc? does that also happen to recreational users who just want a party pickmeup?

 

[fruity]

To that note - I've seen people with drug induced psychosis a number of times - it has pretty much *ALWAYS* been based on paranoia, usually that the people around them have been "out to get them" or "Against" them. It completely changes them as a person at the time they are in that state and rational thought is totally out the window.

Hypothetical:

At some point in the night, Gary goes into a state of drug induced psychosis - he's decided that Pambos is either out to get him or possibly a CPO (Covert Police Officer), this is why Pambos can't find him anywhere when he arrives up there after driving up from Sydney, as GT has gone into "escape and evasion" mode - hence the 17minute phone call consists of GT explaining to his friends back at the Fairmont that he's hiding, he doesn't know exactly where he is but he's not leading Pambos back to the hotel where they all are - and this is how he ends up legging it so far down the road to Sublime Point and into the bush... and possibly even tries to climb down the cliff onto that ledge in his attempts to hide/escape the perceived threat, inevitably slips and falls....

Also explains the language used by Anikka where she refers to it like he's playing "Hide and seek"...

The more I think about it, the more this is the scenario I'm leaning towards. After your post yesterday I've been reading about it, and one statistic I found says that 50% of cocaine users will experience the type of paranoia we've been discussing.

From reading between the lines, I don't think that the night he disappeared was the first time Gary used cocaine, so it's not unreasonable to think that it might have happened MOO.

 

[Derryn Hunch]

i thought the paranoia and psychosis from cocaine use only really set in after the user had been binging heavily on it for months and was addicted to it, using it every day etc? does that also happen to recreational users who just want a party pickmeup?

Nope - I've seen one girl who had her first ever psychosis episode one new years eve/day... drugs ingested at around 8pm NYE (first time she had taken drugs for months) Psychosis was kicking in quite strong by 8/9am NYD - continued through the day into the next night when she finally got some sleep that next night, things were fine again the next morning.

She stopped taking drugs for 8 months - nothing, zilch, nada... then one night took .1g of ampthetamine (a very small amount) - was in a state of psychosis by 4am the next morning, through until she slept finally later that day.

Similar story with a guy I saw it happen to once... has ingested a tab of LSD and Amphetamine one night, by 7am the next morning he was convinced everyone in the car hated him and that the drivers were plotting to slit his throat and throw him in a dumpster when the others left.

Again, was an very occasional user.

Some people are just not made for drugs, just as some people are just not made for alcohol.

 

[Derryn Hunch]

The more I think about it, the more this is the scenario I'm leaning towards. After your post yesterday I've been reading about it, and one statistic I found says that 50% of cocaine users will experience the type of paranoia we've been discussing.

From reading between the lines, I don't think that the night he disappeared was the first time Gary used cocaine, so it's not unreasonable to think that it might have happened MOO.

I agree... providing no other evidence to the contrary, I'm locking this one in.

 

[Lexis]

Nope - I've seen one girl who had her first ever psychosis episode one new years eve/day... drugs ingested at around 8pm NYE (first time she had taken drugs for months) Psychosis was kicking in quite strong by 8/9am NYD - continued through the day into the next night when she finally got some sleep that next night, things were fine again the next morning.

She stopped taking drugs for 8 months - nothing, zilch, nada... then one night took .1g of ampthetamine (a very small amount) - was in a state of psychosis by 4am the next morning, through until she slept finally later that day.

Similar story with a guy I saw it happen to once... has ingested a tab of LSD and Amphetamine one night, by 7am the next morning he was convinced everyone in the car hated him and that the drivers were plotting to slit his throat and throw him in a dumpster when the others left.

Again, was an very occasional user.

Some people are just not made for drugs, just as some people are just not made for alcohol.

A drug induced paranoia might account for why Anika was publicly seeming to have a go at coaxing GT out of a possible hiding place. Somewhere on msm she was speaking to him directly saying words to the effect that - the game of hide and seek is over.

 

[Humdinger]

A drug induced paranoia might account for why Anika was publicly seeming to have a go at coaxing GT out of a possible hiding place. Somewhere on msm she was speaking to him directly saying words to the effect that - the game of hide and seek is over.

I could be wrong, but IIRC that was on her FB page and I think it was the day they were going to recover the body that they believed was GT.